Courses that don't overseed

[Brad Klein]

Can folks name some courses, prominent and otherwise, in the south and southwest that don't overseed their dormant Bermudagrass fairways in the winter? I know Charlotte CC, Old North State Club, Cape Fear and Tucson CC count among them.

It would be interesting to generate a detailed list so that golfers and members seeking to oppose the process would have a sense of others backing their effort.

[David Graves]

For many years, Belle Meade CC (Ross, 1921) in Nashville has overseeded in the winter. This year, the club chose not to do so. Many members were sceptical of this decision for fear of losing the pretty green look and for concerns about overall playability in the early spring before the bermuda took off again.
So far, the decision looks to be correct as the course has played faster and in many ways better than with the overseeding.
The real payoff should be this late spring and summer as we should have a better stand of bermuda. A continued mild winter and an early spring and summer will help.

[Scott_Burroughs]

In my area, the Raleigh and Durham area, only one private club that I know of overseeds, Prestonwood, leaving the rest dormant including Ross courses Raleigh CC and Hope Valley CC, Fazio's Treyburn, and even the upscale TPC at Wakefield Plantation.  I think even the high-end private Nicklaus Governor's Club doesn't overseed.  Ran or Jim Bick could confirm or refute.

Colonial CC in Fort Worth doesn't overseed.  (At least when their aerial was taken )

[Chip Royce]

Landfall's (Wilmington, NC)  2 courses (Dye and Nicklaus) both has stopped overseeding. Fromwhat I gather the rye seems to impede the growth of the bermuda at some point in the growing process. This winter the course played a little tight, but with few detractors.

[BCrosby]

In the Atlanta metro area, Cherokee and Athens CC don't overseed, though both used to.  They are not the only ones that don't, but I can't give you a definitive list.

The trend in Atlanta seems to be against overseeding.

Bob  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Champions

"At Champions, what we've done since 1997 is not overseed at all. We rely on the Bermuda greens even when the Bermuda stops growing. What we've found is that good players don't mind greens being a little brownish looking or having thin grass as long as they still putt true. And we think that by not overseeding, we get more days per year when our greens are good."

"And the bad thing is, it takes 30 to 50 days for those rye grass seeds to germinate. They have to be planted about this time of the year when the temperature starts to drop somewhat, but before it gets too cool.

Then, in the spring, when the Bermuda begins to grow again, it takes another 30 to 50 days for the transition from the rye grass to the Bermuda. Sometimes, like this past spring, it takes even longer if the weather doesn't cooperate."

 - Charles Joachim  10/24/01 Houston Chronicle

"To think that you're going to have greens perfect all the time because of overseeding, you're an idiot. The idea is to get as many good days for your greens as possible. Because everything isn't green isn't necessarily bad. Tan is a nice color."

- Charles Joachim  1/23/02 Houston Chronicle

[Lou Duran]

Quite a few courses in the D/FW area do not overseed; also some in the hill country as Horshoe Bay Resort (3 nice RTJ courses) do not.  My home club, Great Southwest, stopped when it converted its fairways to 419 a couple of years ago.  It seems that the Bermuda hybrids are more dense, and the winter grass seed has a hard time penetrating the surface.  As a result, the coverage is often sparse and unattractive.  419 seems to stay greener longer in the Fall, and come in earlier in the Spring.  Unfortunately, in high concentration areas, if the fairways are kept ultra dry and carts are allowed to run rampant, the dormant grass quickly deteriorates to the root.  Divots are also a problem.  However, even with common Bermuda, the slow transition in the Spring and the long-term ill effects on the dominant grass seem to tilt the scale against overseeding.

[Brad Klein]

I'm also told LACC doesn't overseed fairways.

This is a very important issue, as there is no agronomic reason to ovesreed. It's only done for color. Along the way, playing charcater, as well as irrigation, labor, chemicals and money are wasted.

The biggest area of holdouts appears to be Arizona. Anyone know of prominent Arizona courses that don't overseed?

[Ken_Cotner]

Brad,

My club in Charlotte, Carmel CC (not prominent), does not overseed.  I don't think Myers Park (Ross) does either, but not sure.  No clue about Quail Hollow.  I actually like our dormant Bermuda -- the rye seems a little sticky when I play on it.

I'm pretty sure Pinehurst #2 was not overseeded in the winter prior to its US Open, but don't know if they have returned to the practice.

KC

[BCrosby]

To pick up on a point Brad made, playing on dead Bermuda is terrific fun.  

Talk about firm and fast.  

There is an extra bonus. When the fairways green up in the spring, your course plays completely differently.  Par 5's you could reach in March are unreachable in May.  Drives you could hold on doglegs in June, run off into the rough in February.  You get two different courses for the price of one.

I bring this up everytime my friends from Boston start talking about the glories of their bent grass fairways.

Bob

[Scott_Burroughs]

Probably just about every course in the Palm Springs area shuts down for something like a month around November to overseed the entire courses.  Probably the same in Arizona.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Try selling a brown/tan course to resort guests...

[GeoffreyC]

Mike-  good point.  Last time I was down at Pinehurst was April 1999 a couple of months before the US Open.  They didn't overseed #2 that year because they wanted a good stand of burmuda for June.  Well, the course played fantastic.  Just like BCrosby described but also with G4 greens on steroids.

Problem was that 95% of the people I heard talking including some in my group of 12 were bitching about the tight lies and raving about how wonderful and lush #8 was.

I'd agree that no overseeding is not the way for resorts keep the majority of their customers happy.

[Brad Klein]

Mike, maybe we should merge this discussion with "why is US golf so expensive?"

I know the issues that are involved, but part of the problem is trying to get $200 a round in green fees.

I don't think enough is going to happen until the PGA Tour plays a course on dormant fairways. That'll be the day . . .

[Bryan_Pennington]

Our course in the Raleigh Durham area (CCC) does overseed.  We are in the third year of overseeding and have common bermuda fairways that area at least 50 years old.  We have a multiple line irrigation system (5 to 7 lines) depending on fairway width.  With the common bermuda and proper watering in the Spring, our bermuda fairways have not suffered.  Because we have many "winter" rounds, the dormant bermuda fairways were almost unplayable by March. The general feeling at the club was the common bermuda fairways are good, but not great when compared to the new hybred fairways; so why not enjoy a better playing surface in the winter.  Given the relsiliency of the common bermuda, the fact that the course plays longer with the sticky rye fairways, the overseeding has been very well received.

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Just played The Bridges-a very, I mean very, high end country club in Rancho Santa Fe.  They had not overseeded, which was surprising because of the fact they're still trying to attract members (a sad statement), and the course is very visible from the clubhouse.  It was wonderful, though, played great.  A nice risk on their part to put the "playing" factor over the "visual" factor-when most people would go the other way.

[Bryan_Pennington]

It seems everyone assumes that overseeding is only a visual decision.  Our course was unplayable in March due to the old diviots and complete lack of grass (yes we allow carts in the fairways and that adds a considerable strain to the dormant bermuda).  It seems the bermuda from rye transition is more an issue with the new hybred grasses not the common bermuda.  I realize overseeding might not be popular with this DG, but it has made our course much more enjoyable to play. I'll take playing over discussing any day.  

Do those of you that play on common bermuda in the summers think the hybred grasses are vastly superior?  Just trying the get an idea on the tradeoff.

[Jeff_Stettner]

When I worked at East Lake three years ago, they didn't overseed the fairways or roughs. Of course that's all Zoysia there, which also goes dormant.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I know we overseeded Turtle Point wall-to-wall last year after Nicklaus spend the summer renovating the course.  We spent a ton of money sodding green-side areas that didn't recover from it.  This year, we only overseeded the fairways and roughs (both at Turtle and Cougar Point) giving them what I've always though was a really neat look.  Our supers think we'll have a much easier transition this year.

We went wall-to-wall again this year at Osprey Point and The Ocean Course.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Bryan,
    It's been probably more than three years since I've driven by Carolina CC.  I think it was when that huge mansion burned down before it was finished.  I live in Wake Forest and don't get down Glenwood inside the Beltline much.  If you're ever interested in playing a round, e-mail me.

[BCrosby]

Bryan -

It depends on what you mean by "common Bermuda."

Do you mean the old, ropey 19th century strains?  Jeff Brauer calls it "coastal Bermuda;" around here we call it "cotton patch Bermuda."  Very little of it remains on courses, at least there is very little left in ATL.    

Burton developed a series of hybrid strains (Tift 127, 328, 419, etc.) beginning in the 1930's and continuing today.   These hybrids now dominate on ATL courses.  Some of the newer hybrids are extraordinarily fine (I mean thin-bladed) grasses. They are vastly better than the old cotton patch/coastal Bermudas.

So yes, these new varieties are much better than the common Bermuda.  When they go dormant their blades are so fine that they meld/merge into an almost glass-like, smooth surface.

It makes for a surface that is much more fun to play on than overseeded rye, in my opinion.  In fact, I think it is fantastic.  A real gas.

The older, common Bermuda would be more lumpy when dormant and less fun to play on.  But there isn't much of that around anymore.

Bob

[Mark_Fine]

I remember calling out to Desert Forest Golf Club back in October of 1996 and speaking with Doug MacDonald, the Head Pro at the time (maybe he still is) to set up a tee time.  I knew that overseeding begins in the late Sept/Oct timeframe and many courses close down or at least close holes during this process.  So when I asked him about it, he said to me, “Mr. Fine, this is a real golf course.  We don’t overseed as our members think brown grass plays just fine”!  I remember saying to him, Amen; when can I come out to play!   Maybe their practice biased me, but Desert Forest is still one of my favorites!  

[Brad Klein]

Desert Forest still doesn't overseed and the playing surface is phenomenal. You can't fly the ball into those greens anyway, and with the tight fairway surface you can play a really neat links game if you want.

DF is by far the best course in that whole area - and it's the only one that looks and feels like traditional golf.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

My course in Greenville, SC area Musgrove Mill does not overseed.  

A couple of years ago we had an interesting chance to witness the effects of overseeding as a flood that drastically effected one hole caused us to have to overseed (due to very thin bermuda stand in the fall).  And for a couple years after that it was like a self fulfilling prophecy.  Every spring that hole was the last one to come back with the bermuda and it struggled agains the rye.  So then the fall would come around and the bermuda was still quite thin and so they would overseed again.  I am happy to say it is now back to the point were they do not overseed.

I find it to be a fine surface to play off of, but we are fortunate to not have that many rounds to wear down the dormant bermuda.

[TEPaul]

Somebody should email Don Mahaffey to jump in on this topic!