[Jerry Kluger]

We have generally agreed that modern technology has had a negative effect on some of the great classical courses as really good players have the ability to overpower those courses, etc.  But the question now is whether some of that same technology has made some courses better or more enjoyable for the average golfer?  The only time I played Pine Valley was about 20 years ago and it was really tough for a guy like me who didn't hit it real long and had a handicap around 15.  I would imagine that if I had the opportunity to play it again that it would be far more enjoyable and a better experience.  I have to imagine that other great classical courses such as Merion or Winged Foot would also be more enjoyable for a guy like me using today's technology than that of 20 years ago.  So despite all the complaining it may well be that today's technology is a positive factor in keeping the game of golf alive in these times.   

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jerry

No, No and NO – let’s not forget that the great courses were designed to work with the ball and clubs of that period, ditto all the hazards. Technology has made the great courses easy, if that a victory, they we are not playing the same game.

Melvyn

[Jerry Kluger]

Melvyn: When I think of the great courses I think of PV, Merion, Shinnecock, etc., all of which are difficult for the average player.  I would speculate that if we were still using the equipment of 20 years ago, golf would never have reached the level of popularity that it did.  We sometimes lose sight of the fact that the very best players make up a very small percentage of today's golfers. I would venture a guess that there would be a significant percentage of golfers who would quit the game if we went back to persimmon drivers and balata balls. It is modern technology that gives a duffer like me the chance to play a really good and tough course and actually enjoy myself rather than just surviving the experience. Also, think about this, say they required all players to play from the very back tees, how many would stick with it?   

[Lou_Duran]

From the standpoint of a short-hitting older guy, I am probably hitting similar clubs as many of the good players did with then-period equipment.  In effect, the new clubs and balls may be allowing more of us to play the courses as the architects intended.  The effect may be only marginal as modern tech clearly rewards faster swing speeds disproportionally.  Also worthy of consideration is the advancements in agronomy and maintenance which may offset the distance advantage in part with softer, thicker playing surfaces.  I tend to agree that the advancements (equipment, design, construction, maintenance, technique, fitness, etc.) are, on balance, just that.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jerry, Lou

Please enjoy the game in the manner that is fun for you. As for me knowing that the equipment gave me the edge is just not OK. without the modern mix I would not have hit that Par or Burdie - then I must at all times be true to myself and say what I feel is the truth, the equipment helped my score, so I cheated myself. I

F the course was designed to take whichever date of ball club which say I have used for the last 20 years, then suddenly with new clubs my score goes down, - well as I said its down to you guys as to how you want to play, but what enjoyment can you get knowing the equipment gave you the better score. Oh well whatever

Melvyn 

[Carl Rogers]

What profile of golfer do you ask the question?

I think this a two part question.

Part 1: Clubs and Balls
For a 15 handicapper, the answer is absolutely YES!  I have yet to understand how hitting the ball short and sideways is some how virtuous.  The highly skilled golf is only 0.0001% of the golfing public.

Part 2: Setup, Conditioning and Maintenance
A mixed bag of an answer, maybe no ... and yes
-Higher green speeds preclude pin locations on or near slopes.  
-Why is fertilized and irrigated high rough resulting in the Easter Egg hunt for the ball any good?
-A more scientific approach to turf grass, insects, disease will and has ultimately lead to better sustainable practices

[Bill_McBride]

Jerry, Lou

Please enjoy the game in the manner that is fun for you. As for me knowing that the equipment gave me the edge is just not OK. without the modern mix I would not have hit that Par or Burdie - then I must at all times be true to myself and say what I feel is the truth, the equipment helped my score, so I cheated myself. I

F the course was designed to take whichever date of ball club which say I have used for the last 20 years, then suddenly with new clubs my score goes down, - well as I said its down to you guys as to how you want to play, but what enjoyment can you get knowing the equipment gave you the better score. Oh well whatever

Melvyn 

Melvyn, where do you buy your featheries and rut irons these days?

[Jerry Kluger]

Melvyn: What about the courses which were designed at a time when the players were using hickories - were we cheating ourselves when we used steel shafts and balata balls?

[Mac Plumart]

Here is something I've discovered over the last few months, playing with older equipment many times makes for a better experience for me.  Here is why.

With my modern r9 driver and Titelist golf balls, good hits go 250ish and bad hits also go 250ish but WAY off into the trees.
With my hickory clubs and replica haskell balls, good hits go 200ish, but bad hits go 100ish and rarely make the woods.  

With the shorter distance I move up a tee or two. And the difference regarding mis-hits results in very few lost balls and almost never a penalty stroke.  I feel the new equipment is like having a rocket launcher in my hands, but most people (including me) might not know how to properly use it.

Regarding the better experience, I think I am getting sold on the hickories result in a better experience.

Now the course DOES matter A LOT!!  The design of the course matters.  Jerry asks if modern technology makes for a better experience on a great course.  What era of great course is REALLY important to answer this question.  I've tried to play my hickories on Nicklaus courses and other modern ball striker designs, not a good fit.  Old School courses, perfect fit.  

So, I guess it all depends on what courses specificially you are talking about.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

Couple of places in St Andrews, Tom Morris and St Andrews Golf Company should be able to assist, but the I have a few of my own still.


Jerry

In truth, yes but we have to use the old grey cells from time to tme and try and look at basic common sense. As I hope you know the majority of old courses have extended their courses to adjust for the Haskell ball.

Did I not say you enjoy your game - I will try and enjoy mine, but then its always been more important to us this side of the pond that its how you play that matters more than winning - you either agree or not.

Melvyn

[Jeff_Brauer]

Melvyn,

Here is the rub - in fact, for average golfers, all the new clubs and balls have not resulted in better scores.  As Lou says, it allows them to either play the same clubs they used to, or the same clubs the good guys used to.

There really is no bench line for technology, at least not since the second set of clubs marketed as an improvement over the first came out, which I suspect was in the day of Old Tom, no?

[Sean_A]

IMO, for the handicap player, yes.  I can't imagine playing some of those Tillie/Flynn courses back in the 1920s/30s - they would have been brutally difficult.  The main reason for these type of courses playing better are what is essentially the invention of the reachable par 4 and 5 for decent handicap players.  There were far fewer of these type holes 70 years ago even for good players.  To me, if set up wisely, a course playing from 6000 to 6500 yards can still be plenty of challenge yet have a great variety of hole lengths which is applicable to to handicap players.  In a nutshell, this is one major reason why so many people fall in love with UK courses - they don't play to their yardage or more accurately, the yardage of a course is far less indicative of the challenge compared to modern or beefed up classic courses.  People call it charming, but what they should be calling this sort of design is bloody good.  Of course, if one has a strong interest in hitting wood/long irons on 6-9 approaches after a reasonable drive, then the modern tech has down nothing but dumb the game down.  Its a clear dividing line which VERY few courses can straddle well no matter how many sets of tees are provided.   

Ciao 

[Jim Eder]

I would agree that for the poorer player modern technology does make the great courses a "better experience". IF better experience means easier and lower scoring. BUT for the better player it lessens the experience. So it really depends on the target market. Personally, it has made the great courses a bit easier and therefore lessens my experience THOUGH I still love the great classic courses. Personally, I would love to play them with the older balls.  I do occasionally pull out the persimmion woods and the old Hogans and MacGregors but the new balls just go too far. I would love to play it like the guys in the old days. Just because one has to hit longer clubs into some of the greens does it make it a bad experience? Ask Corey Pavin about his experience at Shinnecock. I love the great courses and find them an absolute joy to play even in this day despite my hitting short irons into the greens or hitting 3wood off the tee instead of a driver etc. Even though I have played and/or scored poorly on the greats at times, I have enjoyed every moment on these incredible courses as much as when I have played well. To me it is not about me or my score but about the genius of the design and the history and the playing companions etc. It is always an honor to play the greats and I always have a great experience on them.

I, like Sean, am amazed at some of the scores posted those years ago.  Amazing players. And totally agree with Sean about his point on the courses in the UK. It is about more than just distance but distance does have a factor on the courses here in the US.

Amazingly great posts by all off you, excellent points on conditioning etc.
 

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: I would suggest that most "better" players enjoy a course more when they score well - at least the ones I play with - they are more concerned about their score than "poorer" players.  The questions is the experience and I would say that other than the top 1% of players, technology makes the experience better for that other 99%.  Put the top players on Winged Foot and tell them to have a good time from the back tees with old equipment.  Or how about having them play the back tees on the Ocean Course and add in a 15 mph breeze.  I think that Sean is correct that every level of player would enjoy it more on some of the UK courses at much shorter yardages - and there the technology won't matter was much.  I love the game as much as anyone but if you tell me that I would be using old technology on 7000 yard courses for the rest of my playing days my enjoyment would be limited to the exercise and the outdoors and not playing the game.

[Ben Kodadek]

Melvyn,

I understand your issue with new technology (carts, balls, graphite, lasers, etc...) and do appreciate it.  But, at what point did "we" make the conversion from the game of golf (loosely paraphrasing you) to the sport we now have? 

Lastly, if you were (I recall you stating a while back that you don't play due to health reasons) to play present day, what type of equipment would you use?  Would it be modern day equipment, knowing that you were "cheating" yourself or equipment from days of old?

I look forward to your response.

[Anthony Fowler]

Just as they do now, architects from the 10s, 20s, and 30s designed courses with the best golfers in the world at the forefront of their minds.  Improvements in technology allow the average to above average golfer to appreciate courses, holes, and shots that only Jones and Hagen could appreciate in the golden era.

Do you think that 10 at Riviera, 16 at Cypress, or 5 at Merion pose a strategic dilemma for the average player using hickory shafts?  No.  That player can't hit the ball far enough or consistently enough to even think about an aggressive strategy.  Now, there are weekend and once a month golfers that can enjoy these holes because of improvements in technology.  Isn't that a great thing?

Moreover, IMO, the technology helps the average player much more than the professionals, so these holes still challenge the pros (even if not to the exact same degree as in the past).

[Garland Bayley]

I would agree that for the poorer player modern technology does make the great courses a "better experience". ...

"Modern technology" makes zero, nada, zilch difference to the poorer player. The "modern" ball has been available and used by the poorer player for 40 years. Is that what is meant by modern technology? Most of the rest of it is manufacturer hype that has next to no effect on the poorer players game.

[Jerry Kluger]

Garland: Please define "poorer." I would agree that the guy hitting a 150 yard slice off the tee isn't going to improve much with today's technology. However, players who hit the ball 200 yards certainly benefit from the forgiveness of the big drivers and it makes a big deal to them if they hit a wedge to a green and the ball stops or if it bounces off the back of the green.

[Jim Eder]

Garland, you honestly don't think that the poorer player hasn't beenfited from Titanium, the Pro V 1, the new irons and the weighting etc? You don't think the spin is different off the driver etc? "Zero, nada, zilch"? I agree with Anthiony that the technology seems to help the average player more rather than the top players. Look at Nicklaus in the day and Tiger.

Anthony, great point on the short holes you mention.  But there were some players that could hit it a long way back in the old days but agree there were not many.

Jerry, I would agree with you that most (not sure the probability) of the better players focus more on the score.  Should they? Is a low score while playing poorly a better experience than a higher score wherre one plays extremely well? The experience is much more than the score.  It is the experience, the course, the playing partners, the history, the sounds, the sights, and of course the play that seem to matter to me.

I would play the great courses Pine Valley, Cypress, etc with old technology from the tips at any time. Now what is the definition of old technology? Hickory shafted clubs or the clubs of the 50s, 60s, 70s etc. I would love to play Merion with the balls of the 70s with my persimmons and my old Wilson Staffs (which are still pretty long). The problem I have is having the ball perform the same way as it did in the 70s and 80s. The ones I currently have still have lost performance and playing the old clubs with the Pro V1 is not the same.  The Pro V1 just goes too far.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, you honestly don't think that the poorer player hasn't beenfited from Titanium, the Pro V 1, the new irons and the weighting etc? You don't think the spin is different off the driver etc? "Zero, nada, zilch"? I agree with Anthiony that the technology seems to help the average player more rather than the top players. Look at Nicklaus in the day and Tiger.
...

There has been no change in spin off the driver for the average guy for 40 years. The average guy is not going to waste $40 dollars on a box of ProVs to play his average game. The average guy has been playing the spinless two piece ball for 40 years. The average guy doesn't make contact with the ball in such a fashion that the spin coming into the green will have any effect. As a matter of fact, in the rare ocaisions where the average guy has found a ProV in the bushes and put it into play, and has made good enough contact to produce significant spin, the average guy is penalized for having the ball not end up where he expected, and significantly penalized if the ball actually backs away from his target.

The average guy has found that a big headed driver simply allows him to swing harder and compound his mistakes by more.

[Garland Bayley]

Just as they do now, architects from the 10s, 20s, and 30s designed courses with the best golfers in the world at the forefront of their minds.  Improvements in technology allow the average to above average golfer to appreciate courses, holes, and shots that only Jones and Hagen could appreciate in the golden era.

Do you think that 10 at Riviera, 16 at Cypress, or 5 at Merion pose a strategic dilemma for the average player using hickory shafts?  No.  That player can't hit the ball far enough or consistently enough to even think about an aggressive strategy.  Now, there are weekend and once a month golfers that can enjoy these holes because of improvements in technology.  Isn't that a great thing?

Moreover, IMO, the technology helps the average player much more than the professionals, so these holes still challenge the pros (even if not to the exact same degree as in the past).

Anthony,

Average guys are hit it and hope guys. If your handicap is less that 15, you are not an average guy. IMO you post is significantly flawed.

[Jim Eder]

Maybe it is a definitional thing. I tend to think of the "average" golfer as a 16-20 handicap. I play with a number of these folks and I have seen an improvement in their games over the years. Heel shots that went 180 with a persimmon now go 240 and stays either in the fairway or in the primary rough. And many of them play the Pro V1s (ego?). The NXT etc would be just as good for them imo to be honest. Now compared with the old Titleists back in the day these balls are longer imo (and I believe the USGA thinks that as well). Now these "average" people tend to be members of clubs etc so maybe my experience is skewed.   

It would be interesting to see the the stats on new clubs with the different swing speeds and angels of approach and whether the spin rates are different.

I know there is an aspect of marketing in the sale of "performance enhancing" clubs but I still believe that in aggregate the technology of today is superior to that of 20-40 years ago even for the less than average golfer. But sadly I only have anecdotal evidence and not that of empirical evidence.

[Mac Plumart]

Garland...I think I am drinking your Kool-Aid.

You...The average guy has found that a big headed driver simply allows him to swing harder and compound his mistakes by more.

Me... I feel the new equipment is like having a rocket launcher in my hands, but most people (including me) might not know how to properly use it.

I think we are saying similar stuff.  And for the record, I've only played with modern equipment and hickories from 1885 era.  Not persimmon clubs.  I hope to get some next year and check them out with balata and see the difference.

Good topic guys and very applicable to studying and understanding architecture.

[Anthony Fowler]

Just as they do now, architects from the 10s, 20s, and 30s designed courses with the best golfers in the world at the forefront of their minds.  Improvements in technology allow the average to above average golfer to appreciate courses, holes, and shots that only Jones and Hagen could appreciate in the golden era.

Do you think that 10 at Riviera, 16 at Cypress, or 5 at Merion pose a strategic dilemma for the average player using hickory shafts?  No.  That player can't hit the ball far enough or consistently enough to even think about an aggressive strategy.  Now, there are weekend and once a month golfers that can enjoy these holes because of improvements in technology.  Isn't that a great thing?

Moreover, IMO, the technology helps the average player much more than the professionals, so these holes still challenge the pros (even if not to the exact same degree as in the past).

Anthony,

Average guys are hit it and hope guys. If your handicap is less that 15, you are not an average guy. IMO you post is significantly flawed.

Hi Garland.  Can you explain your opinion a little more.  I am a scratch golfer and I still feel that technology helps me to appreciate the intent and strategy of great holes.  The 10th hole at Riviera becomes more strategic and exciting for me when I have a graphite shaft and a titanium driver.  In the past, only Bobby Jones could consider going at this green.  I think this effect would be even greater for a 15 handicap, but I'd be happy to hear your views. 

[Garland Bayley]

...
I know there is an aspect of marketing in the sale of "performance enhancing" clubs but I still believe that in aggregate the technology of today is superior to that of 20-40 years ago even for the less than average golfer. But sadly I only have anecdotal evidence and not that of empirical evidence.

Technology has been discussed a lot here in the past. I believe the general concensus is that the better you are the more technology has aided you. There are some hold outs on that like Pat Mucci.

It should be noted that Pat seems to believe everything the manufacturers tell him, and uses those lies to try to prove that Marion Hollins could not possibly have made the shot at Cypress Point that Alister MacKenzie recorded in his book.

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