[George Pazin]

Well at one point in the Golden age they surely did! Just pick up one of the books from the Old Dead Guys that we revere and there are countless drawings of holes with but one tee. The paths are mapped for the A, B, C & D player to follow; with the A player challanging the hazards and by virtue of his boldness reeping the reward of a better angle or not having to play directly over a greenside bunker. The D player would have to tack his way around the hazards and by skirting them costing himself strokes in the process. I've never seen a diagram of this nature which gave the C and D players a head start as it were.

My suspicion is that these types of holes are harder to design as more thought must be put in to make the hole play reasonably well for a very disparate group of players. I suspect that of the many well known courses Riviera would be a good example of this. I believe you and Matt could have a fair match there form the same tee, if you able to beg for enough strokes. But you would in essensce be playing two different courses; it would be expected that Matt would be hitting PW in and you would be hitting 5-7 iron. Didn't the problem really start when someone said: "George should be able to hit a PW into this hole too, because I've made the green receptive to only PW shots or better. Now we are forced to give you your head start to allow that to happen.

I say we blame RTJ; he started building greens protected by water. If the A player gets to hit a PW than it would be grossly unfair to expect a less skilled D player have to attack that green with a 3 wood. The  runway tee does more that spread wear and provide daily elasticity; it provides a false sense of equity. I would suspect that the people who are attracted to this web site would rather play the course with the alternate paths rather than the equitable we'll both hit 7 iron holes.

This is a beautiful post, I hope everyone reads it and thinks about it.

No way Matt's 5 clubs longer than me, but that's beside the point...

In all seriousness, the difference between Matt's game and mine is not the length either of us hit the ball. And THAT is the point.

[Mac Plumart]

Are we talking about Matt Ward's game again?  If so, I need to know his game to get the gist of all this stuff.  He hits tee shots over 300 yards (right?), what is his handicap?  Is he scratch?  Plus handicap?  5, 10, 15...what?

Thanks!

[Garland Bayley]

Right on Pete.

The PGA hired AWT to go around removing DHs (duffer headaches). RTJ then proceeded to put a new form back in, thereby guaranteeing AWT could work for as long as he wanted had he lived long enough.

[George Pazin]

Are we talking about Matt Ward's game again?  If so, I need to know his game to get the gist of all this stuff.  He hits tee shots over 300 yards (right?), what is his handicap?  Is he scratch?  Plus handicap?  5, 10, 15...what?

Thanks!

Think Paul Bunyan...

[Mac Plumart]

But what is his handicap?  I think this is an important piece of information to know.

[Sean_A]

Part of the problem with multiple tees is down to multiple hazards which must be dealt with off the tees.  In the old days, this sort of design was far less common.  I would also say that another problem with multiple tees is an obsession with length and how it is treated.  Most people look at the length of a course, envision their best shots then make a determination of the suitability of the tees.  The problem is, their best shots are as good as a pro's, but what they really need to do is envision just okay shots with a few really good ones chucked in and four or five really bad ones - that is a 10 capper.  Finally, golf holes can't be built to be ideal from five sets of tees.  More likely one or two sets is more realistic.  Needless to say, no course of mine would have five sets of tees in play, but I would like the option of loads of separate teeing areas focusing on with/angles rather than length - only I would use one or two of these areas on any given day.  

Ciao  

[Melvyn Morrow]

As a Non-American I feel that on this one I must take the 5th after all the world has stereotyped the American Golfer already, yet you still believe that you are real golfers throughout the different levels of golfers - Oh Boy nearly wet myself there.  

Melvyn

PS A sort of American PMT when it comes to golf, think I follow George  

[Mac Plumart]

I don't follow Melvyn.  Sorry, I guess I am too dump to understand what you are getting at.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Who ride carts and use lots of toys instead of their own legs and eyes, not many in Europe, GB or I, and it is seen to run right up all levels of the game and as for PMT many of us have been on the receiving end at some time in our lives.

Melvyn

[Peter Pallotta]

Like many products and ideas and practices that people create, promote or invent, multiple tees didn't actually solve an existing problem;   instead, they just created a whole host of new ones.  There wasn't ever really a need for multiple tees; but once they came on the scene they changed everything, most of all golfers' expectations on playablity and scoring.  

Ask any addict about the dialectic of created wants.

And so endeth the lesson for today.....

Peter

[Garland Bayley]

But what is his handicap?  I think this is an important piece of information to know.

On ghin.com, there are three candidates from NJ. One is 1.5 who scores really well on the internet. Another is 8.0 with a 101 in his history. And the third is 14.6.

I'll let you guess which one it is.

[Pete Lavallee]

And also note not a single round in the 20 higher than 79; very impressive.

[Garland Bayley]

Actually Matt focuses on the proper tees and tee shots. It just occurred to me that I should report that I am famous at my club for my saying, "no good drive goes unpunished." It is fairly easy for my ball to leave the golf course on the second shot after a good drive so I guess maybe Matt would have me playing par 3 courses for the rest of my life, but only from the "proper tees".

[George Pazin]

Actually Matt focuses on the proper tees and tee shots. It just occurred to me that I should report that I am famous at my club for my saying, "no good drive goes unpunished." It is fairly easy for my ball to leave the golf course on the second shot after a good drive so I guess maybe Matt would have me playing par 3 courses for the rest of my life, but only from the "proper tees".

Another excellent post, from someone who is actually walking the walk, not talking the talk...

[Jim_Kennedy]

In those old and golden days of American golf yardages of 5,500 to 6,500 were in the main and turf was generally more firm. The next tee was a few steps away. Women didn't have unfettered access to the course and children were frowned upon.

Multiple tees are one of the most democratic aspects of the game, along with municipally owned courses.

[Sean_A]

I don't know if its me, some sort of new language being invented with a liberal sprinkling of PC or just a load of horseshit, but I can never understand Matt (the man of stock phrases which convey no message), I don't know what the hell Garland is on about with his last post - really - I don't have a clue, and Jim mentions democratic in reference to tees.  Heavy sigh.

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sean,
That's democratic with a small 'd' i.e., of or for the people in general; popular

[Peter Pallotta]

But Jim - why would you want a golf course to be democratic? Should the course encourage the belief that all golfers are created equal? Should a golf course help all golfers to score equally (or at least give them the opportunity to score equally)? Maybe courses should identify the better golfer, not humiliate the poor ones. But why would the poor ones be humilliated in the first place? It's just a game....

Peter

[Jim_Kennedy]

Peter,
I'm not even remotely talking about fairness of play, multiple tees are an open invitation to golfers of all levels.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ah...

Peter

[Colin Macqueen]

Garland,

""no good drive goes unpunished." It is fairly easy for my ball to leave the golf course on the second shot after a good drive...."

As a  mere mortal I find solace and comfort on this site when gems like the above appear.

Thank you!

Colin

[Ben Voelker]

I am an American and haven't played much golf anywhere else, but surely at least two tee boxes is necessary to grow the game.

Wasn't it Alice Dye that brought a lot of attention to the plight of female golfers trying to play courses that were way too long and difficult 40 years ago?  Surely this has to generally still ring true today.  Length isn't the only thing, but how could you expect a high handicapper to play from 6,300 yards and a mid to high handicap lady or new junior golfer to play from the same place when they hit the ball half the distance?

Most of the muni's I grew up on have 2 tee boxes and three sets of tees.  Back and middle tees on one box and ladies box some 50 yards or more up in front of the fairway.  That seems like a minimum to me.

[Mac Plumart]

Perhaps we got sidetracked here, but the original question was "Are there truly similiar characteristics of different levels of golfers?"

I think yes...without question.

I play with three different levels of golfers on a frequent basis...scratch to 4 handicappers, 7 to 10, and 10 to 15.

Golfers from each group may or not be able to hammer the golf ball.  And I mean hit drives consistently over 280 yards.  Hit 5 irons 190 yards, pitching wedges 140 yards.  

BUT the distinctive characteristic of lower handicapper golfers is putting and the short game.  My buddies who are right around scratch rarely miss putts from inside 6 feet, routinely nails 12 to 15 footers, and it seems like every chip either goes in or just misses.  That is the defining characteristic of a "good" golfer that I have noticed.  

Now one of my friends is a +4 handicap.  He hits drive 280+ right down the pipe time and time and time again.  He sticks fairway bunker shots right on the green.  He chips like butter.  And he hits putts.

But I re-iterate, the three original groups I mentioned all have long hitters in the group.  BUT only the lower handicappers have that great short game.  So that is the similar characteristic of the level of golfer from what I've noticed.

In fact, I would add that the following statement is actually a back-handed compliment at best and is really a severe criticism..."he is a great tee to green player."  That to me says the player in question can't putt and, in my opinion, will never live up to their apparent potential.  They said this thing about Sergio and Adam Scott.  Both AMAZING golfers, but seem to have fallen short of the high expecations people had for them.

[Sean_A]

Peter,
I'm not even remotely talking about fairness of play, multiple tees are an open invitation to golfers of all levels.

Jim

Two or three tees are also an open invititation to golfers of all levels.  That isn't the issue at all regardless of how you are using the term "democratic" (which makes no sense to me in this context).  The issue for the most golfers to get the most enjoyment is for the course to be designed in such a way as to accomplish this.  A good design doesn't need five sets of tees to accomplish that.  IMO, the only reason for having five sets of tees open on a daily basis is because the course is on terrain not suitable for good golf.  Just like 7000 yards is a gimmick and a crutch not to build good quality courses 500 yards shorter, so is five sets of tees a scam.  But then so is democracy so perhaps you are onto something.

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sean,
If you weren't ascribing some ulterior motive to what I said then the definition of democratic I supplied fits the context and should make sense to you.

I never even remotely suggested the use of five sets of tees, nor am I a fan of needless yardage. 

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