Cypress Point - The Marion Hollins's shots on the 16th

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Bikert, Bob Huntley, Dan King,

You continue to present modern day examples of golfers reaching the green.
But, they're doing so with modern day equipment, not equipment circa 1925 or earlier.

Dan King,

The 1.62 ball did not go further downwind.
It's advantage was into the wind or with crossing winds in your face.

I'm hoping to have more info on this in the next few days.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Tom Bikert, Bob Huntley, Dan King,

You continue to present modern day examples of golfers reaching the green.
But, they're doing so with modern day equipment, not equipment circa 1925 or earlier.

Dan King,

The 1.62 ball did not go further downwind.
It's advantage was into the wind or with crossing winds in your face.

I'm hoping to have more info on this in the next few days.



So are we.

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan King,

The 1.62 ball did not go further downwind.
It's advantage was into the wind or with crossing winds in your face.

Patrick, I'm through arguing with your imagination.

Cheers,
Dan King

Examinations are formidable even to the best prepared, for the greatest fool may ask more than the wisest man can answer.
 --Charles Caleb Colton

[Patrick_Mucci]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Just because there are no eyewitnesses alive today, nor eyewitness accounts, does not mean that Hollins did not make the shot and it is automatically a myth. Hollins certainly must have told Mackenzie about it when he and she were planning the course after Raynor's death. therefore the account is second hand, but in my view reliable as Mac got it from the horse's mouth so to speak.

Neil,

MacKenzie's account that you posted is even harder to believe.

He stated that during her conversation with Raynor she dropped a ball down, and hit a Brassie (2-wood) 230 yards to the center of the green site.

NO tee, just plopped the ball down and hit it 230 to the center of the current green.

No warm up, just plopped the ball down and hit it 230 to the center of the current green

How do you account for her dropping a ball down in an area NOT prepared for golf, just raw land/grass/sand


pat started the thread with the aim of debunking what he said was a myth. So the onus is on him to disprove it.

Not reallly.
All I  have to do is get acknowledgement that there's NO eyewitness or eyewitness account that the event took place.
Absent that certification, by definition, it's a myth, just romantic folk lore.

"Webster's New World College Dictionary" defines the word "myth"

"A traditional story of unknown authorship,"

"Any fictitious story or UNSCIENTIFIC ACCOUNT, THEORY, BELIEF  

Absent concrete evidence, By definition, the alleged event involving Marion Hollins is a myth.

Sorry to burst your bubble fellows

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
MacKenzie's account that you posted is even harder to believe.

He stated that during her conversation with Raynor she dropped a ball down, and hit a Brassie (2-wood) 230 yards to the center of the green site.

NO tee, just plopped the ball down and hit it 230 to the center of the current green.

No warm up, just plopped the ball down and hit it 230 to the center of the current green

How do you account for her dropping a ball down in an area NOT prepared for golf, just raw land/grass/sand

Why would you lie about what MacKenzie wrote when so many of us have a copy of the book?

I posted this earlier in the thread:
"It was suggested to her by the late Seth Raynor that it was a pity the carry over the ocean was too long to enable a hole to be designed on this particular site. Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove to the middle of the site of the suggested green."

I know, your imaginary version is much easier to debunk, but still why such an obvious lie?

Cheers,
Dan King

Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed.
 --Mark Twain

[Dan King]

Patrick Mucci writes:
Dan King,

You continue to present modern day examples of golfers reaching the green.
But, they're doing so with modern day equipment, not equipment circa 1925 or earlier.

Yet again, more "facts" from the fertile imagination of Patrick Mucci.

I know I'm wasting keystrokes, but care to point to a post I made where I used modern day examples of golfers reaching the green?

Cheers,
Dan King

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
 --Bertrand Russell

[David_Elvins]

Patrick,

It seems that most of the posters here are biased in that they contain knowledge from having played Cypress Point, read various accounts about players at Cypress Point, read accounts of the distances women hit the ball in the 1920s and read accounts on how far Marion Hollins hit the ball.

I have done none of these things and as such I am one of the few posters in this thread who can offer an unbiased and therefore accurate commentary on the issue. 

The story of Marion Hollins hitting a shot to the future location of the 16th green is definitely (100%) a myth, with no factual basis whatsoever. 

[Garland Bayley]

Patrick,

This is really a very simple matter. All you have to say is "Can anyone say that Marion Hollins hit that shot without a shadow of doubt?"
The jury would have to come in without convicting Marion of having hit that shot.

It is all your embellishments of "I can barely make the shot with modern equipment, so Marion couldn't have made the shot" where you get in trouble. Since we are all confident Marion could have whipped you at golf, your embellishments don't stand a chance with this jury.

[Bob_Huntley]

Patrick,

The story of Marion Hollins hitting a shot to the future location of the 16th green is definitely (100%) a myth, with no factual basis whatsoever. 

Mike,


I really have no dog in this scrap but pray tell, how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

I was addressing the three of you and others in general.

But, getting back to Marion, Raynor died in January of 1926.
Allegedlly he was in Hawaii prior to his death.

Steel shafts were approved for competitions by the USGA in 1925, probably March, but, I'll know the exact date shortly.

So, we can narrow down the possible dates that the alleged event took place, if steel shafts were employed.

It would appear that it was in 1925 or earlier.

If Marion used a metal shaft for the alleged event, it would have been after the USGA meeting approving them for play, probably March of 1925.

So, now we just have to track Raynor's and Hollins's whereabouts in 1925 and see when they intersect.

Then we can match the prevailing wind directions, which appear below, to assist us in analyzing the alleged shot/s


J      F        M  A           M     J     J      A     S     O   N     D
ESE  ESE    W  WNW    W    W    W    W    W    W  ESE  ESE

It would also help if we could get an aerial of the land in 1924 & 1925 so that we could see exactly what the site looked like.
If it was overgrown with trees and brush, then, I thnk even you would concede that the alleged event is a myth

[Patrick_Mucci]

Garland,

Please feel free to initiate a thread and phrase it as you wish.

[David_Elvins]

The story of Marion Hollins hitting a shot to the future location of the 16th green is definitely (100%) a myth, with no factual basis whatsoever.

I really have no dog in this scrap but pray tell, how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Bob,

Two years ago I made a decision to accept that everything that Pat Mucci says is correct.  I cannot tell you how much less stressful my life has been since.  My blood pressure is lower, my headaches have gone away and I have more time to spend with my family.  
 
He hasn't been wrong in 23,000 posts, why would he be wrong now?  That's my view and I am sticking to it.  Have a great day!  

[Jim Nugent]

Before this thread, I thought she made the shot - because I thought Mackenzie witnessed it.  Now I think of it as urban legend.  Possible, intriguing, a great story... but without hard facts, unknowable.   

More interesting to me now is who conceived the hole.  Mackenzie says he didn't.  Was it Marion?  Raynor?  Their collaboration?  Someone else?

It also resurrects the question of how much of CPC is original Mac, and how much is Raynor.  It sure would be fascinating to see Raynor's routing.  

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
But, getting back to Marion, Raynor died in January of 1926.
Allegedlly he was in Hawaii prior to his death.

He follows that with more and more made up facts.

Cheers,
Dan King

You can fool too many of the people too much of the time.
 --James Thurber

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
But, getting back to Marion, Raynor died in January of 1926.
Allegedlly he was in Hawaii prior to his death.

He follows that with more and more made up facts.

Dan, I didn't make that up, it was cited in a response to you in an earlier reply.

Your memory is failing

Cheers,
Dan King

You can fool too many of the people too much of the time.
 --James Thurber

[Dan King]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan, I didn't make that up, it was cited in a response to you in an earlier reply.

Your memory is failing

Patrick posts more made up "facts."

It's interesting I started in on this thread because of Mark Frost. Mucci and Frost have the same problem of making up facts to fit their narrative. It's possible they both occasionally get something right, but that has more to do with the law of averages than anything else.

Cheers,
Dan King

If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hoper, a prayer, a magic-bean-buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!
 --Shel Silverstein

[Kevin_Reilly]

So, we can narrow down the possible dates that the alleged event took place, if steel shafts were employed.

Why in the world would a steel shaft have been needed?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick_Mucci writes:
Dan, I didn't make that up, it was cited in a response to you in an earlier reply.

Your memory is failing

Patrick posts more made up "facts."

It's interesting I started in on this thread because of Mark Frost. Mucci and Frost have the same problem of making up facts to fit their narrative. It's possible they both occasionally get something right, but that has more to do with the law of averages than anything else.


Dan, Jim Nugent posted that in reply # 165.
Since you don't recall it, I"ve quoted it below

 Re: Cypress Point - The Marion Hollins's shots on the 16th
« Reply #165 on: October 16, 2010, 05:01:39 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Raynor died January 23, 1926.  The chronology I just read of his last days says he spent time in Hawaii, designing two courses there.  He got very sick, came back to the mainland and immediately headed to Palm Springs.  That is where he died.

So if Marion made the shot in front of Raynor, it likely happened earlier than 1926. 

Neil, I thought before this thread that Mac saw Hollins hit the shot.  That's why I took it as true: the alternative is that he lied.  The fact that AM didn't see the shot, and only heard the story (who knows from whom?), means it carries a lot less weight for me.   

Again we don't need Frost anymore.  Ward and Venturi both say they hit driver.  Venturi said all four hit driver.

I think Jim's error is that he died in Palm Beach, not Palm Springs

[Patrick_Mucci]

So, we can narrow down the possible dates that the alleged event took place, if steel shafts were employed.

Why in the world would a steel shaft have been needed?

Kevin,

Part of the discussion dealt with the efficiency of the equipment in 1925.
Some seemed to think that the shot was more possible with steel than hickory.
The use of hickory would seem to make the shot less likely since steel performs better than hickory and would produce better results.

Others intimate that she used a graphite shafted 48 inch driver.

[Dan King]

Patrick Mucci writes:
Dan, Jim Nugent posted that in reply # 165.
Since you don't recall it, I"ve quoted it below

So you backed up one of some 20 lies you've posted in this thread. One out of 20 is still well below the Mendoza Line and leaves you still in the company of Mark Frost.

Cheers,
Dan King

No man has a good enough memory to make a successful liar.
 --Abraham Lincoln

[Neil_Crafter]

Pat
That account of Marion plopping a ball down and hitting it 230 yards with her brassie was just a random account of the story I grabbed off the internet. It is NOT Mackenzie's account from Spirit of St Andrews. I hope I have made that clear.

You still have never answered my oft repeated question to you - is the account you quote of her hitting three balls come from Frost? A straight answer would be appreciated.

While you seem very happy to call this a myth I think story is more appropriate. And where do you think Mackenzie got the story from if not from Hollins herself???

1. I do not believe Mac made the story up, he had nothing to gain personally from doing that.

2. If he didn't make the story up, then who told him the story do you think? If you do not think the most likely source was Hollins herself, then I can only think you are on some strong medications.

3. Spirit of St Andrews was published in 1995 after Ray Haddock discovered the manuscript. Prior to this, Mackenzie's acccount was unknown. However, the story of Hollins' feat was known prior to 1995 - in April 1977 the USGA Golf Journal ran a story on Mackenzie that stated:
"Marion Hollins, had walked the land with him when he was in the process of determining where the holes should be. When she suggested what is now the location of the 16th, he asked her to play a trial tee shot. The green now rests where her ball landed."

So the story, by 1977 at least, had Mac there witnessing the shot, whereas Mac's own account said she did it with Raynor, and not him. I looked through some of my golf books but could not find any earlier accounts.

As I said before, I cannot prove she did the feat - but then again you can't prove she didn't either!

At some point the back and forth becomes futile and I think I am nearly over that particular carry! And it has seemed longer than 220 yards too!

[Jon Wiggett]

I have not read the last few pages of this thread which I have missed over the last few days. The reason is the Pat M's selective answers. He overlooks replying to questions which he can't answer without contadicting his own theory. It is a shame that such a knowledgable person should act in this slightly blinkered manner

Pat, the facts are:

1. That in 1949 Hogan, by his own admission, was hitting the driver an average of 265 yards.
2. When the match was played it was not so warm


Also does it say anywhere they all hit the driver full tilt? And finally Hollins was more than capable of hitting the ball 200+ and maybe she had a helping wind.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat
That account of Marion plopping a ball down and hitting it 230 yards with her brassie was just a random account of the story I grabbed off the internet. It is NOT Mackenzie's account from Spirit of St Andrews. I hope I have made that clear.

Nonetheless, it's another account that conflicts with the others, leading me to doubt any and all of them.

You still have never answered my oft repeated question to you - is the account you quote of her hitting three balls come from Frost? A straight answer would be appreciated.

Yes

While you seem very happy to call this a myth I think story is more appropriate.
And where do you think Mackenzie got the story from if not from Hollins herself???

He could have gotten it from any number of sources, employees, residents, etc., etc..

1. I do not believe Mac made the story up, he had nothing to gain personally from doing that.
Noone ever said he made it up except you.

2. If he didn't make the story up, then who told him the story do you think? If you do not think the most likely source was Hollins herself, then I can only think you are on some strong medications.

Any number of people could have told him the story, employees, residents, other golfers, etc., etc..

3. Spirit of St Andrews was published in 1995 after Ray Haddock discovered the manuscript. Prior to this, Mackenzie's acccount was unknown. However, the story of Hollins' feat was known prior to 1995 - in April 1977 the USGA Golf Journal ran a story on Mackenzie that stated:

"Marion Hollins, had walked the land with him when he was in the process of determining where the holes should be. When she suggested what is now the location of the 16th, he asked her to play a trial tee shot. The green now rests where her ball landed."

This is JUST a story told by a third person, NOT MacKenzie.
Who is the author of the article ?
And, the interesting thing about that story is that it doesn't say that she hit the shot from 220-230, which is a critical element in the myth.

So the story, by 1977 at least, had Mac there witnessing the shot, whereas Mac's own account said she did it with Raynor, and not him. I looked through some of my golf books but could not find any earlier accounts.

So, the STORY is INCORRECT, FALSE
Then why would you rely upon it ?

As I said before, I cannot prove she did the feat - but then again you can't prove she didn't either!

Please see the definition of the word "MYTH"
Also, please see my reference to Tommy Naccarato and Aliens in LA.
For an event to be factual there has to be substantive concrete evidence that it occured, absent that evidence, the alleged event remains a myth, despite your wishful thinking

At some point the back and forth becomes futile and I think I am nearly over that particular carry! And it has seemed longer than 220 yards too!

That's up to you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have not read the last few pages of this thread which I have missed over the last few days. The reason is the Pat M's selective answers. He overlooks replying to questions which he can't answer without contadicting his own theory. It is a shame that such a knowledgable person should act in this slightly blinkered manner

Pat, the facts are:

1. That in 1949 Hogan, by his own admission, was hitting the driver an average of 265 yards.
    John, that includes ROLL.  And, I bet he wasn't hitting it that far in dense, cooler ocean air.
    The FACTS are that Harvie Ward and Venturi confirmed that Hogan hit a driver, SHORT, so why are you inserting totally irrelevant
    elements into the discussion.  What part of the confirmation by Ward and Venturi don't you get ?

2. When the match was played it was not so warm
    I already stated that the temperature was around 62-65 degrees, sweater weather.
    What does that have to do with the FACT that Hogan hit driver that day ?

Also does it say anywhere they all hit the driver full tilt?

He came up short.  If he came up a little shorter, he'd be in the ocean, something that I"m sure he wanted to avoid.
All the other golfers also hit driver.
If you know anything about the hole, you know one thing, you don't want to come up short.
Your want to ERR on the LONG side.

Have you ever played the hole ?

And finally Hollins was more than capable of hitting the ball 200+ and maybe she had a helping wind.
So am I and so is Pat Burke a former PGA Tour Pro, but, we both had to hit driver and that was with modern balls and equipment.

Now do you get it ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick Mucci writes:
Dan, Jim Nugent posted that in reply # 165.
Since you don't recall it, I"ve quoted it below

So you backed up one of some 20 lies you've posted in this thread.

I didn't back it up, I just proved that you were wrong, that you were lying.
I haven't lied once during this thread, you just get confused when I use the word "you" in the royal sense.

For you to say that you're neutral on the issue is preposterous.
You've not applied the same standards to disproving Hollins's alleged event that you applied to disproving Hogan's, Nelson's, Venturi's and Ward's events

One out of 20 is still well below the Mendoza Line and leaves you still in the company of Mark Frost.

Would you cite the other 19 lies you allege that I've made

I suspect that your statement is a deliberate lie