Cypress Point - The Marion Hollins's shots on the 16th

[Jeff Dawson]

Sorry gentleman, too much to type....... perhaps in person if our paths cross.

Oh....and it's a great story

[Carl Nichols]

Jeff:
What's your number?
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

What is the source of the "3 balls" story? Where was it published and/or what is its provenance?

Charlie,

That's what I'd like to know.

There appears to be no documentation or first person reference to it, hence, it would seem to be a myth based on the inability to locate ANY reliable source.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm with Patrick on this one. The best players in the world are pounding driver hole high in 1956, and I'm to believe that a woman 30 years prior (maybe even wandering around in a dress) carried a ball 220? Sounds like a tall tale to me.

None of the best players in the world were pounding driver to reach 220 yards. That's ridiculous! Those guys could reach 220 with a half swing. Pat's insistence on this supposed data from 1956 is pure fantasy.

Garland,

Are you calling Jeff Dawson a liar ?

He's quoting TWO of the participants that day.

What's your source ?

What proof do you have that Frost, myself and Dawson are in error

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
Here's more info from Jones that adds some depth to my earlier post.

In the 1949 U.S. Open Harvie Ward carried the ball 245 yards on the 10th hole at Medinah, Nelson carried it 255.
The results of everyone's carries and rolls on the hole can be found here: http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1940s/1949/490815.pdf

They must have gotten weaker in the intervening 7 years.

[JESII]

Jim,

For what it's worth, that is with a helping wind of 5 to 15 MPH...

Seems very reasonable based on all these reports that the four guys hit driver, what I don't understand is why it's not possible for Hollins to have done so as well...

[Garland Bayley]

I'm with Patrick on this one. The best players in the world are pounding driver hole high in 1956, and I'm to believe that a woman 30 years prior (maybe even wandering around in a dress) carried a ball 220? Sounds like a tall tale to me.

None of the best players in the world were pounding driver to reach 220 yards. That's ridiculous! Those guys could reach 220 with a half swing. Pat's insistence on this supposed data from 1956 is pure fantasy.

Garland,

Are you calling Jeff Dawson a liar ?

He's quoting one of the participants and referencing two of them

What proof do you have that Frost, myself and Dawson are in error ?

Where did Jeff say they could not hit 220 with a half swing driver? Give the actual factual driving statistics others are giving you, how is it possible that what I wrote was wrong?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
RTJ Sr. based his changes at Oakland Hills for the '51  Open on this information:  "Recent tests I made during Open Championships proved that the average carry of the entire field is about 240 yards. Better than ten players carry 250 yards and scarcely anyone in the field carries less than 230 yards, illustrating that features outside these limits are of no penal value."

Jim, Like the Tour stats, you don't know which holes he measured, temperature, humidity, elevation of the tee relative to the fairway, etc, etc..  The U.S. Open is held in Mid-June every year when temperatures are typically in the 70's and 80"s.
CPC on Jan 11, 1956 reached a high of about 62-65*

That seems to be several yards longer than the 220 or so needed at Cypress.  

I sure wouldn't equate shots hit in Mid June at US Open sites to those hit at CPC at almost any time of year, especially 01-11-56.

But, Jeff Dawson has confirmed what the competitors hit, so why the ongoing questioning ?
Where are all the questions about Marion Hollins's alleged shots ?


Jim,

Would you equate weather and atmospheric conditions at Oakland hills in Mid June 1951 (80* 06-15-51) with the weather and atmospheric conditions at CPC on Jan 11, 1956 (62* 01-11-56) ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm with Patrick on this one. The best players in the world are pounding driver hole high in 1956, and I'm to believe that a woman 30 years prior (maybe even wandering around in a dress) carried a ball 220? Sounds like a tall tale to me.

None of the best players in the world were pounding driver to reach 220 yards. That's ridiculous! Those guys could reach 220 with a half swing. Pat's insistence on this supposed data from 1956 is pure fantasy.

Garland,

Are you calling Jeff Dawson a liar ?

He's quoting one of the participants and referencing two of them

What proof do you have that Frost, myself and Dawson are in error ?

Where did Jeff say they could not hit 220 with a half swing driver? Give the actual factual driving statistics others are giving you, how is it possible that what I wrote was wrong?

I guess that 's why HOgan came up short, he used a half driver swing.

let's see, when I play that hole, do I want to err LONG of SHORT ?

Only a moron, would insist that they played short of the hole, employing a half swing.

You're desperate, wrong, and a joke.

Change your meds

[Carl Nichols]

Patrick:
Where do you get the historical weather data?  I'd be curious to see what's available for purposes other than this thread.

[Bruce Katona]

Jeff: I volunteer my wife to transcribe your verbal account for input to the site.  She is an executive assistant and typing falls into her comfort zone.

[Dan King]

Patrick Mucci writes:
What proof do you have that Frost, myself and Dawson are in error ?

We know Frost makes stuff up. I have no idea if his account of clubs hit and distance from the hole came from a reliable source or from his imagination. Do you know? Hard to rely on someone for facts when it has been clearly demonstrated he makes up facts. What is fact, what is fiction? You and I have no idea. You and I have no idea if Frost is in error or not.

I did not see Dawson collaborating your (Frost's?) story. He said some of the 1956 participants hit driver, according to Mr. Ward.  

I'd say you are in error. Your error is relying on a fiction author for real facts.

Cheers,
Dan King

I remember playing the match and how excited Ken [Venturi] and I were to be playing [Ben] Hogan and [Byron] Nelson. I know we played some fantastic golf that day, all of us, but I don't remember much else.
 --Harvey Ward (on the 1956 match between amateurs Venturi and Ward against legends Hogan and Nelson at Cypress Point)

[JMEvensky]

Patrick:
Where do you get the historical weather data?  I'd be curious to see what's available for purposes other than this thread.

He's committed to memory the prevailing wind direction for every hour of every day of every year since 1902 at every golf course on the face of the Earth.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Only a moron, would insist that they played short of the hole, employing a half swing.

You're desperate, wrong, and a joke.
...

Of course I never insisted they played short of the hole, employing half a swing. That seems to be your suggestion.

People on this website tell me you are a gentleman. Is the name calling you consistently engage in an aspect of gentlemanly behavior that I somehow failed to learn?

I hope you realize that citing a nearby weather station for wind speed is not in the least bit valid. Wind can be a very localized event.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,

I willing to believe the boys used driver that day, I'm also willing to believe that Holiins could make the carry.

[Michael Moore]

Pat -

Do you think Hollins could have made the bare minimum carry of 185 yards in warm weather, with little or no sea spray rising up and clinging to the ball, with a helping wind? Yes or no.

The answer, of course, is yes. From there, folklore (a concept whose allure you have cheapened with this thread) takes over and the end result is Hollins ripping a driver from the tips to a back pin.

[Pat Burke]

Played the 1980 Cal Am at Pebble/Cypress.
Weren't allowed practice rounds, so when I got to 16 tried to hit an easy driver (MacGregor w/keyhole insert btw)
Caught it a little thin, hit a couple feet short.
Went ahead an hit one harder, just off the back.  It was cool and into the wind.
Next year, I hit a 3 iron in the center of the green on a cool windless day (60-65 degrees I would guess)

Played AT&T in a gale in 1990 and pummeled the dogwater out of a driver to hit the green (made 5 )

[Dan King]

Pat Burke writes:
pummeled the dogwater out of a driver

I love that. What is "pummeled the dogwater" from? I've never heard it before but I like it.

Cheers,
Dan King

I am not a cat man, but a dog man, and all felines can tell this at a glance — a sharp, vindictive glance.
 --James Thurber

[Jeff Dawson]

Ran hit a hickory driver to 16 green.....if he can do it.........

Here is a blurb I put up about Harvie last winter

http://www.dawsongolf.com/2010/01/winter-blueswhat-to-do.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:
Where do you get the historical weather data?  I'd be curious to see what's available for purposes other than this thread.

Carl,

It's on the internet.

City, date and info.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
Here's more info from Jones that adds some depth to my earlier post.

In the 1949 U.S. Open Harvie Ward carried the ball 245 yards on the 10th hole at Medinah, Nelson carried it 255.
The results of everyone's carries and rolls on the hole can be found here: http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1940s/1949/490815.pdf

They must have gotten weaker in the intervening 7 years.

Jim,  I'm really surprised at you.
How can you ignore the fact that they had up to a 15 mph wind at their back ?
How can you ignore the fact that it was 91 degrees at Medinah in mid June ?
How can you ignore that they didn't count drives under 220 when calculating the average ?

C'mon, stop looking for excuses to dismiss the account from several sources and start looking to discount the myth that Marion Hollins hit three balls to the center of the green, something that Hogan and Venturi couldn't do

Jeff Dawson, a personal friend of Harvie Ward has stated that he had a conversation with KEN and HARVIE and that they used drivers

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

For what it's worth, that is with a helping wind of 5 to 15 MPH...

Seems very reasonable based on all these reports that the four guys hit driver, what I don't understand is why it's not possible for Hollins to have done so as well...

Jim,

You've been hanging around TEPaul and his crowd too long so I'll explain it to you.

Four of the best golfers in the world hit driver on that hole in 1956.

But, we're to believe that 30 years earlier, a woman in 1926, apparently with no warm up, stepped onto a makeshift tee, teed up three balls and hit them to the dead center of where the green currently resides, 222 yards away..

Yet, there's no record or document confirming this, just heresay.

Yet non-Philly morons are defending the alleged incident as if they witnessed it

Have you ever played the hole

[Patrick_Mucci]

Played the 1980 Cal Am at Pebble/Cypress.
Weren't allowed practice rounds, so when I got to 16 tried to hit an easy driver (MacGregor w/keyhole insert btw)
Caught it a little thin, hit a couple feet short.
Went ahead an hit one harder, just off the back.  It was cool and into the wind.
Next year, I hit a 3 iron in the center of the green on a cool windless day (60-65 degrees I would guess)

Played AT&T in a gale in 1990 and pummeled the dogwater out of a driver to hit the green (made 5 )

It should be noted that Pat Burke comes from a family of TERRIFIC golfers, including himself, and that he wasn't playing in the 1990 AT&T as an amateur, but, a PGA Tour Professional.

It should also be noted that his Tour Stats indicate that his average drive was 285.8 yards.
Yet, he hit driver on thre of his four plays at # 16.

Is the logic hitting you yet ?

Perhaps Marion Hollins was a longer and better player than Pat and his PGA Tour mates

[Patrick_Mucci]

...
Only a moron, would insist that they played short of the hole, employing a half swing.

You're desperate, wrong, and a joke.
...

Of course I never insisted they played short of the hole, employing half a swing. That seems to be your suggestion.

People on this website tell me you are a gentleman. Is the name calling you consistently engage in an aspect of gentlemanly behavior that I somehow failed to learn?

First, I didn't call you a moron, I stated that ONLY a moron would insist that they play the hole short, employing a half swing, especially when short is death, long, recoverable.
Secondly, You were the wiseguy that started with the snide remarks on this thread and others.
If you want to be treated like a gentleman, behave like a gentleman.

I hope you realize that citing a nearby weather station for wind speed is not in the least bit valid. Wind can be a very localized event.

Please stop with the nonsense.
You have nearby weather stations, none of which are sited on the 16th tee.
But, they are a reliable indication of conditions that day.

Stop being absurd

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:
Where do you get the historical weather data?  I'd be curious to see what's available for purposes other than this thread.

He's committed to memory the prevailing wind direction for every hour of every day of every year since 1902 at every golf course on the face of the Earth.

JMEvensky,

Correction.

Only the continental U.S.