Cypress Point - The Marion Hollins's shots on the 16th

[TEPaul]

I hadn't thought that much about it but the story of Marion hitting that shot is sometimes assumed to have been something she did when Mackenzie was there but on a closer reading one sees it was Raynor she was with when she did it. Raynor died in Jan 1926. If she hit that shot with Raynor it probably means that hole was set at that point as a potential par 3 and Mackenzie sort of inherited it as part of the routing, even though how to actually do it seemed to at first confuse him.

And Mackenzie did mention that he used as his "shot tester" Lapham's son who he said was really long.

I feel the story has truth but some of the numbers and distances may've gotten a bit skewed in the telling. But the thing is Pat, Marion Hollins really was long, very long and somehow you don't seem willing to accept that fact.

I recommend to everyone to get the biography about her as it portrays a person who was not just a good golfer (for instance she may've been one of the best woman polo players ever and as a "Four-in-Hand Driver" she apparently had no woman peer or perhaps no peer at all) but a really remarkable person in all kinds of other ways but not without some complexities for sure.

As a visionary, a natural born risk-taker, a globe trotter, a woman with more friends and connections than I've almost ever heard of she was just something else. But even with all that she seemed to be (at least so many said of her) that she was or could be very mild-mannered and at times even a bit anti-competitive in a way that might be termed "overly generous." All-in, that may've had something to do with the fact she may've been inherently shy and just over compensated in some of the things she imagined and tried.

To me she didn't seem to be particularly proprietary either with some of her projects, such as Women National which it seems she started and then sort of lost some touch with when she moved west. To "shot test" for the hole concepts of Women National she picked her great friend and three time US Amateur champion, Alexa Stirling of Georgia, to do the shot testing figuring if she did it herself it would not be representative as she knew how unusually long she was.

"A Woman in a Man's World" is an excellent title for a biography of Marion Hollins. She was a TRULY remarkable person for sure who like many of her ilk and era ended up with too much tragedy. And then there was her pretty much lifelong cross to bear of her father, the inimitable Harry Hollins, big-time financial risk taker who actually went broke in 1913 thereby precipitating the giving up of the incredibly rich and fortunate life Marion grew up into in New York and Long Island.

What a gal.

PS:
She was also The Babe's original mentor in golf and taught the Babe from her beginning.

PPS:
When asked why she never married her response was something like: "I'm too busy to do that."

[Bill_McBride]

PS:
She was also The Babe's original mentor in golf and taught the Babe from her beginning.

Ruth or Zaharias?

[Garland Bayley]

PS:
She was also The Babe's original mentor in golf and taught the Babe from her beginning.

Ruth or Zaharias?

"She was also The Babe's original mentor in golf and taught the Babe from her beginning."

[Terry Lavin]

Patrick, haven't we had enough discussions about Marion?  

Now, that's FUNNY!

A little more levity in the Merion threads may have leavened some of the heat/hatred/vitriol that we had to endure.

I say, "more Marion, less Merion"!   

[William_G]

Legend had it that Marion Hollins, a terrific golfer and athlete, changed Raynor's thinking regarding the 16th at CPC when he initially planned it as a par 4.

The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.

This allegedly occured in or prior to 1926, when Marion was 34 years of age.

Some on this site insisted that the story is true.

Having played that hole a number of times, starting in 1979, I never believed the story/myth.
I hit driver my first time, I hit it solid and low into the wind and just reached the front of the green.

Think about:
The Ball in 1926
The equipment in 1926
The swing in 1926

Now, fast forward 30 years to January 11, 1956.

A lot had happened in those intervening 30 years in terms of improvements to the ball and equipment.

So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.

First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan.  He hit a driver...... in front of the green

Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson.  He hit a driver...... to six feet

Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi.  He hit a driver....... left of the green

Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward.  He hit a driver....... to five feet.
Ward had previously hit a driver on the hole when he was 7 under par, only to see his round ruined by an 8.

So, the legend would have us believe that Marion Hollins, 30 years earlier, hit the ball as far as Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward.

As an aside, on January 11, 1956, Hogan shot 63, Nelson, 67, Venturi 65 and Ward 67, so it's not as if they were off their games.

Are we to believe that 30 years earlier, with inferior balls and equipment, that Marion Hollins hit THREE balls to the center of the green, a 220 yard shot, a feat that Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward couldn't accomplish amongst themselves ?

Having accompanied Venturi in a match against my dad in 1964, it's beyond belief that Marion Hollins, with equipment of the day (1926), could hit the ball as far as Venturi.  Going a step further, with the equipment of 1926 or 1956 there's NO way that Marion Hollins was a player of Venturi's equal, especially with regard to distance.   The same goes for Ward, Hogan and Nelson.

But, it's a nice fable.

The question is, who started the myth and why ?

 

The story is not that old so it's more likely true than not.

If it were 1726....

[JESII]

How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?

[Garland Bayley]

How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?

It's taken from a fictional book Jim!

[JESII]

Maybe I should have asked Pat the question directly...because it's the singular source of this thread.

[Bill_McBride]

How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?

1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?

[Garland Bayley]

How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?

1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?

Two weeks before Ben Hogan died he was still striping it 250 with persimmon. Me thinks everyone has developed this silly idea that modern technology be-all/end-all.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Legend had it that Marion Hollins, a terrific golfer and athlete, changed Raynor's thinking regarding the 16th at CPC when he initially planned it as a par 4.

The legend goes on to say that Marion Hollins, to prove her point that the hole could be a par 3, teed up three balls from a spot 220 yards from the center of the green and landed each one in the middle of what would become the green.

This allegedly occured in or prior to 1926, when Marion was 34 years of age.

Some on this site insisted that the story is true.

Mackenzie recounts the story in "The Spirit of St. Andrews" (p 135) so he apparently believed it to be true in 1933, only a few years after it allegedly happened.

That's not true
MacKenzie's version has her hitting ONLY one ball
Why do you suppose his story differs from the other ?

Having played that hole a number of times, starting in 1979, I never believed the story/myth.
I hit driver my first time, I hit it solid and low into the wind and just reached the front of the green.

Think about:
The Ball in 1926

-snip-

Now, fast forward 30 years to January 11, 1956.

A lot had happened in those intervening 30 years in terms of improvements to the ball and equipment.

Well, don't forget that prior to 1930, the golf ball was 1.62" in diameter, and that the balls played by the best players were both heavier and hotter than the balls of the years 1931 through today.

What makes you think that the balls were both heavier and hotter ?

Then, in 1942, the USGA again restricted the ball by creating a velocity limit of 250 feet per second.

The one likely "expert" on these matters, Ralph Livingston, has suggested that the ball Jones used in the 1920s was at least as hot as the modern ProV1, and since it was smaller, it was a very hot ball compared to the one that Hogan, Venuri, et. al. hit

And, the equipment in 1926 ?    ?  ?

To suggest that golfers were carrying their drives further in 1926 than in 1956 is absurd

So, at about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.

First to hit was 44 year old,....... Ben Hogan.  He hit a driver...... in front of the green

Next to hit was 44 year old Byron Nelson.  He hit a driver...... to six feet

Next to hit was 24 year old Ken Venturi.  He hit a driver....... left of the green

Last to hit was 30 year old Harvie Ward.  He hit a driver....... to five feet.

So, the legend would have us believe that Marion Hollins, 30 years earlier, hit the ball as far as Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward.

As an aside, on January 11, 1956, Hogan shot 63, Nelson, 67, Venturi 65 and Ward 67, so it's not as if they were off their games.

Are we to believe that 30 years earlier, with inferior balls and equipment, that Marion Hollins hit THREE balls to the center of the green, a 220 yard shot, a feat that Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward couldn't accomplish amongst themselves ?

Mackenzie's version of the story doesn't mention three balls, it says: "Miss Hollins said she did not think it was an impossible carry. She then teed up a ball and drove it to the middle of the site for the suggested green."

S.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

From a match between a Mrs. Reymond and Marion Hollins:

"Marion had taken her stance for a brassie second when a train came down the track. Just as she drew back her club, the whistle blew an awful howl, but she came onto that ball with all the force she had and drove it 200 yards up the fairway."

"On No. 17, the longest hole on the course, Mrs. Reymond played the longest drive of the week, 276 yards as paced by Mr. Charles Green, the president of the club."

"On the37th (hole), both girls  (Reymond and Hollins)  played drives well past the two hundred mark."

From another article, 1919:

"Miss Marion Hollins, with not quite such a free swing, but with one that was just as effective,was getting tremendous distance, both from the tee and through the green, so far in fact, that in her match with Miss Beatrice Lounseberry, she had a comparatively simple putt for a 3 on the four hundred and something yard fourteenth hole."

In that same article a Mrs Higby :

  “…won the driving competition with three drives of 230 yards,230 yards and 220 yards. An average of over 225 yards brings her driving very near the average of a first-class man-golfer. In fact, in this respect it seems that the gap between the driving of the women and of the average first-class man has lessened considerably during the last few years, and instead of the seventy to eighty yards that used to exist, it would take a bold man to attempt to give more than thirty yards to some of these young players of the modern school of golf.”

Jim,

You're not going to equate driving distance with carry distance are you ?

Especially on UNIRRIGATED FAIRWAYS

But, your quotes seem to prove my point.
If her total driving distance was 220 to 230 certainly a good deal of the driving distance would be attributed to roll.

As you also know, the air is usually much, much, much heavier close to the sea than far inland, robbing golfers of distance.
And, the report that the "First Class Man" drives the ball that distance would refute the imbecils on this site that contend that men or women were driving the ball prodigious distances with incredible carries

I think the citations you provided support the refutation of the myth

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, didn't Mackenzie say Hollins did this, in one of his books or articles? 

He recounts the event with Raynor on page 135 of TSOSA, he didn't witness the alleged event, and only recounts.

So besides the points others have made, the alternative is to say that Mackenzie lied. 

Jim,

You can't be that stupid.

If the story/myth was relayed to Dr M, and he repeated it, why would he by lying, irrespective of the authenticity of the story ?

If David Moriarty told you that CBM was responsible for a good deal of what occured at Merion and you repeated that to TEPaul, would you be lying ?

[Sean_A]

"The question is, who started the myth and why ?"

Pat, you are far from establishing this incident is a myth.  I don't know if it happned or not, but I have no doubt whatsoever that it could have.  I recall you not believing Bobby Jones' comment that he hit a drive 300 yards uphill.  I know I side with Bobby on that one and if he can poke it 300 uphill Marion Hollis could it ~220. 

Has anybody established the carry distance or the tee used?     

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?

1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?

Two weeks before Ben Hogan died he was still striping it 250 with persimmon. Me thinks everyone has developed this silly idea that modern technology be-all/end-all.

That's PURE, UNADULTERATED BS

Have someone check your meds, you're hallucinating.....again

[Carl Nichols]

Pat:
Why do you think the story about 1956 is reliable but the story about 1926 isn't?  And even if the facts are true regarding 1956 about the clubs hit and how close to the hole, why are you so certain there wasn't any wind? 

[Garland Bayley]

How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?

1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?

Two weeks before Ben Hogan died he was still striping it 250 with persimmon. Me thinks everyone has developed this silly idea that modern technology be-all/end-all.

That's PURE, UNADULTERATED BS

Have someone check your meds, you're hallucinating.....again

Now you are calling Mike Wright golf pro at Shady Oaks a liar. The reference is Ben Hogan An American Life by James Dodson. It is recounted in the Prologue.

[Jon Wiggett]

How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?

1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?

Two weeks before Ben Hogan died he was still striping it 250 with persimmon. Me thinks everyone has developed this silly idea that modern technology be-all/end-all.

That's PURE, UNADULTERATED BS

Have someone check your meds, you're hallucinating.....again

Patrick,

Ben Hogan was hitting his driver an average of 265 yards in the late 40's (ref. Power Golf by Ben Hogan)

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I seem to recall that Ben Hogan's driving average in the late 40's was 265 yards so 220 yards with the driver would surgest an into the wind shot. I would suggest that a shot of 220 yards for Marion Hollins was more than realistic given her ability.

Jon,

It's possible, that in Texas, on unirrigated fairways that Hogan, in the late 40's, at age 36 or so, had a total driving distance of 265 yards.
But, it wasn't until much later that golfers discovered that distance was a function of launch angle, trajectory, not a running draw which was a great distance getter prior to irrigated fairways.  The low draw was NOT prone to great carry distances.  Nicklaus was probably the first to hit howitzer like drives.
In 1965, 9 years removed, when Hogan was 52/53 I watched him play in the PGA at Laurel Valley with Ken Venturi.
The previous year, soon after his U.S. Open win, Ken played with my dad at my home club with me tagging along, keenly interested in every shot he hit.

In the 60's, the driving distance between PGA Tour Pros and the better amateurs wasn't that great.
  

[Patrick_Mucci]

How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?

1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?

Bill,

Anyone who has played an oceanside course knows how heavy that air can get.

Many on GCA.com weren't even born in 1956 and as such have no idea as to the functioning of the I&B in 1956 or earlier.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?

1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?

Two weeks before Ben Hogan died he was still striping it 250 with persimmon. Me thinks everyone has developed this silly idea that modern technology be-all/end-all.

That's PURE, UNADULTERATED BS

Have someone check your meds, you're hallucinating.....again

Patrick,

Ben Hogan was hitting his driver an average of 265 yards in the late 40's (ref. Power Golf by Ben Hogan)

Jon, that's TOTAL driving distance on UNIRRIGATED FAIRWAYS..... in Texas ?

NOT CARRY

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat -

Perhaps Hollins hit a few shots that made the 185-yard minimum carry and perhaps she did not attempt this in the dead of winter.

Michael,

Have you played the hole ? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

How is it possible that those four guys hit drivers in anything less than a very strong wind?

1956 persimmon at sea level in a breeze?

Two weeks before Ben Hogan died he was still striping it 250 with persimmon. Me thinks everyone has developed this silly idea that modern technology be-all/end-all.

That's PURE, UNADULTERATED BS

Have someone check your meds, you're hallucinating.....again

Now you are calling Mike Wright golf pro at Shady Oaks a liar. The reference is Ben Hogan An American Life by James Dodson. It is recounted in the Prologue.

ABSOLUTELY, it's absolute nonsense

And, you're an idiot if you believe it.

At 85 and in poor health with poor eyesight, we're to believe that Hogan was driving it 250 with a persimmon wood

Please, get a grip and have someone check your meds

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Why do you think the story about 1956 is reliable but the story about 1926 isn't? 

The NUMBER OF WITNESSES

And even if the facts are true regarding 1956 about the clubs hit and how close to the hole, why are you so certain there wasn't any wind?

Because the official recorded wind velocity that day was 1.8 knots 

[Dan King]

Patrick, who is your source for the 1956 info?  If it is Frost, do you realize the guy writes fiction?

I think you are too easily discounting the 1.62 ball. I've hit the smaller ball a few times and it does generally fly further and lower, and into any sort of wind is a better choice.

Cheers,
Dan King

It became slowly but painfully apparent that playing a different sized ball in the championship matches of each country would present a problem, if not an ultimatum. The R & A followed the usual practice of British diplomacy. They thought a sensible compromise was possible, in the shape of a ball somewhere in between. They manufactured two experimental balls, 1.65 and 1.66 inches in diameter respectively. They were offered to the Americans as a proud solution. The Americans, however, remembering Jefferson and the Louisiana Purchase (which was unconstitutional, and sneaky, but worked), had a better idea. Why not compromise, they suggested, by using our ball. And so it was. The bigger American ball is now compulsory in all R & A championships and in British professional tournaments.
 --Alister Cooke