[brad_miller]

Has the 10th hole been fixed, I heard there where some wetlands issues, if not when is C&C going to fully finish. Sounds like the makings of a fun course.

[Jud_T]

Matt,

Good point.  In fact, unless one has played every course a designer has done, such pronouncements have to be qualified...Is there still finish work to be done?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill & Craig---

Hmmmm.  As far as I'm concerned, a double bogey is a double bogey is a double bogey.  If the double comes from a four putt after a misplaced approach or from a shot into a cleverly place cross bunker that creates an awkward approach, it's the same thing.  Both are great architectural devices and it's why both are wonderful holes.  I find it interesting that Bill thinks the play is to knock it as close to the green as possible because I originally thought that as well.  Upon closer inspection, I think that's correct only with particular hole locations.  I definitely do not want to be really close to the green with a back right hole location or something that's far left, there's too much stuff to deal with on the ground and I'd much rather lay back and play a full shot to those hole locations.  It's the beauty of cool short par fours, choices and decison making. 

These things are all relative, Adam.  When I say " the play is to knock it as close to the green as possible.." I'm still not going to be inside 100 yards!

And Craig is correct, there is a preferred side of the wide fairway depending on pin location.

All things considered, I still think #5 at Cuscowilla - and #5 at Friars Head too - is a better hole!

[Jim Nugent]

Matt,

Good point.  In fact, unless one has played every course a designer has done, such pronouncements have to be qualified..

I'm a broken record on this, but I feel it bears repeating.  This is a big weakness in GW's and GM's golf course rankings.  Virtually none of the raters have played all the courses in contention.  Yet they are supposed to rank courses, according to whether they are top 3 (or 5) in the country... top 15... and so on.  As you point out, such pronouncements have to be qualified. 

[Craig Disher]

Has the 10th hole been fixed, I heard there where some wetlands issues, if not when is C&C going to fully finish. Sounds like the makings of a fun course.

Roughly speaking, C&C finished the 10th some time ago but after the hole was completed and in play the DNR insisted that the fairway was built over part of the wetlands. They directed the club to dig up the fairway and recreate the wetlands (it's debatable whether there were wetlands in that area originally). The dig completely altered C&C's original design for the hole. After some discussion - and after the club dug up the fairway - the DNR relented and said that the original design was fine. The club plans to fill in the hole and re-sod in the early spring.

[brad_miller]

Craig, I hope you are right this time.  I know the club said they would do the work last fall and a few people even said C&C were doing the work already.  It is only 3-4 days work at a cost of 35k-45k.  Hopefully they will be in a position to do the work eventually to bad they didn't do it when they said they were going to.   

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Please do not misunderstand what I said -- one doesn't need to play EVERY course in a designer's portfolio or all the courses in contention -- but it helps to have a representative sample to begin such a process.

Jud:

Like I said above -- you don't have to play everything but the sample size must be sufficient to make hard and fast statements about overall greatness / lack thereof.

Adam:

Given your breath of experience with C & C courses -- what are your top ten in order ?

Enjoy seeing your listing and any rationale you care to provide.

thanks ...

[Craig Disher]

It's a pretty big hole to fill and I imagine there's also some drainage work to be done. Bringing in all the dirt would have closed the hole for several days when the course was in excellent condition and getting a good amount of play.

It's interesting that the original design for the hole aimed the fairway to the left of the current one creating a necessary carry over the wetlands. The left side of the fairway would have grazed the current 9th tee. It's ironic that avoiding the required carry by going r-l ultimately led to another required carry thanks to the DNR. Fortunately the right thing was done.

[Bill_McBride]

Given your breath of experience with C & C courses -- what are your top ten in order ?

Enjoy seeing your listing and any rationale you care to provide.

thanks ...

This question just makes me chuckle.  How in the world could one distinguish #4 from #5, etc?   And more importantly, what is the point?

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

I like to see what people think -- if they wish to group them in threes instead of individual listings that's fine.

Certain people have particular areas of emphasis and having them rate them in some sort of order does help me understand what they see as the key priorities of a given course.

[Chip Gaskins]

First off -- before anyone can go off and proclaim some course as the best -- one would need to know the exact listing of courses that one has played to date.

Frankly, if such a listing were less than eight courses I would dare say that the research work is rather light.

Matt

Here are the C&C courses that I have played.  From what I have read and seen, it seems like Lost Farm might become their best work (certainly according to Keiser's comments).  I have not made it to Tasmania yet though.

   1. Austin Golf Club
   2. Barton Creek
   3. Friars Head
   4. Bandon Trails
   5. Sugarloaf Mountain
   6. Dormie Club
   7. Hidden Creek
   8. Chechessee Creek
   9. Sand Hills
  10. Colorado Golf Club

[Bill_McBride]

Matt, I have played the following C&C courses.  I'd put Friars Head at the top, but the rest are tied for second.  I guess Barton Creek Cliffside might not rank as highly as some others, but I have played it a lot and really enjoy it, particularly the greens, at least half of which flow front to back.  All the greens are just laid across the existing terrain.

Not in order per above:

Friars Head
Barton Creek Cliffside
Austin Golf Club
Bandon trails
Cuscowilla
Talking Stick North
Talking Stick South
Dormie Club

[Carl Nichols]

Carl I do not remember a poor hole much less a terrible one at Cuscowilla. Chip how do you distinguish these course given the land and features look so similar.

Tiger--
I thought Cuscowilla was great, but I thought 14 was not....

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I would agree with Bill.  I really liked Dormie Club, but preferred Friar's Head by quite a bit (Probably 8-2).

[Bill_McBride]

Carl I do not remember a poor hole much less a terrible one at Cuscowilla. Chip how do you distinguish these course given the land and features look so similar.

Tiger--
I thought Cuscowilla was great, but I thought 14 was not....

Carl, what didn't you like?  The wonderful cross bunkers or the wonderful green?  I agree the tee shot is kind of boring, but the second shot decision, the shot into the green, and the putting are all first rate, IMHO.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Fair to say you have not played Clear Creek yet ?

Did not see it listed.

Also did not see Hidden Creek or Easthampton.

[Ed Oden]

Bill:

Fair to say you have not played Clear Creek yet ?

Did not see it listed.

Also did not see Hidden Creek or Easthampton.

And your point is?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

Fair to say you have not played Clear Creek yet ?

Did not see it listed.

Also did not see Hidden Creek or Easthampton.

Sad but true.  .  Nor Sand Hills.   . How'd you miss that one?

[George Freeman]

A great photo tour of the course can be found here:

http://sandhillsinsider.com/dormie/dormieclub.html

Enjoy!

[Lawrence Largent]

Played Dormie this past Sat. 36 holes.  This was my first CC experience and really enjoyed it.  I would love to hear everyone's opinion on the 13th hole.  To me the hole didn't really fit the rest of the course.  I will say that the course was a joy to play with holes that you could score on and really tough ones to boot.  We played in a pretty steady wind of 20mph so I can say one thing it really kept your attention.  The greens played firm and you could really hit some neat shots with the contours of the greens.

Lawrence

[Bill Brightly]

I have not played the top C & C courses in the US so I can't really comment on the rankings, but I did just return from Tasmania. Lost Farm is a great course. Given the proximity to the water, I just have to believe that it is the best site Bill Coore ever worked with. It is the site he did not get at Bandon. So my guess that people who have played all the C & C courses will put LF at the top.

Two cool things I learned out there:

1) When Mike Keiser became involved in the project, he put Bill Coore and his wife on a plane to see the site (never sent the bill to his partner) and I guess the rest is history.

2) I heard this from an employee of LF: after several days of walking through the dunes and marrum grass, Bill Coore mentioned that he had not seen any tiger snakes. A local said: "you usually don't see them, but you will hear them, they make a barking sound." Bill Coore went white...

[Matt_Ward]

For those who have played a minimum of five (5) C&C courses or more -- how would you place The Dormie Club ?

I'll be visiting there in the very near future.

[ed_getka]

Matt,
    When are you visiting Dormie Club? My clubs are rusty, but I would love to get together for a drink or a meal.

[Matt_Ward]

Ed:

You have my direct phone # please call me or send me a message offline and I can provide that info.

Love to get together - I will also be playing at Tobacco Road too.

[Chip Gaskins]

For those who have played a minimum of five (5) C&C courses or more -- how would you place The Dormie Club ?

Matt

Here is my list, give or take a few ties...

Sand Hills
Dormie Club
Hidden Creek
Bandon Trails
Friars Head
Colorado Golf
Chechessee Creek
Austin Golf Club
Sugarloaf Mountain
Barton Creek

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