Dormie Club - Coore & Crenshaw's Best?

[Michael Whitaker]

With exception of Augusta National this might be the best course in the southeastern US and instantly in the top 15-20 in the U.S.

I had the good fortune to play DC this past weekend. I have thought about the course for 3 days and I simply must agree with Chip.
I think DC is as good as any of the 3 courses I played in Bandon in 2005. I certainly think it's the best course in NC or SC today. The undulations in the fairways are never ending, the greens can be huge (one probably 45 yards deep), the greens sit softy on the terrian, I hit every club in the bag, and the ground game is more than encouraged. It played firm and fast. I felt creative like you should at Bandon or in Scotland. I putted from 10 yards off the green, I hit low runners, chipped with 7 irons. Things that most courses in my area won't let you do. I would change one hole. One tee shot landing area or tee location (#8) and that's it.
It's really really good.   

Bruce - Remind me about #8. I can't quite picture that hole in my mind.

In your email to me the other day you mentioned that the wetlands that bisects the fairway on #10 is being pulled back to open up the corner for the second shot, per the original design.  Is that area now grassed or is it still open ground under repair?

[Craig Disher]

[JC Jones]

Craig,

Does that hole play straight away or right to left?

[Craig Disher]

JC,
It plays right to left. At the bottom of the fairway slope you can see the back edge of a large bunker that sits on the corner where the fairway turns to the green. The front edge of that bunker is over 300 yards away - the hole plays between 450 and 470. The hole is a short-hitters nightmare. The drive needs to carry over the high slope on the right where it will receive a good roll towards the green. Anything short of the peak of the slope will run hard left to a spot from which you can't see the green. There has been talk about removing a couple pines on the left to open the view from that side. The photo doesn't show accurately how much elevation there is on the right - or how steeply it slopes to the left.

[Michael Whitaker]

Craig -Thank you, I remember the hole very well. Big par four (if there were any pars) with a long green that slopes right to left. Yes? I don't remember thinking there was anything wrong with the fairway landing area or tee location.

Bruce - What was it you did you not like about this hole?

[brad_miller]

Who from the C&C team is on site doing the work? I suspect both Bill and Ben have spent a lot of time at Dormie given the Pinehurst #2 project. What else are they finishing up.

[Bruce Wellmon]

Craig -Thank you, I remember the hole very well. Big par four (if there were any pars) with a long green that slopes right to left. Yes? I don't remember thinking there was anything wrong with the fairway landing area or tee location.

Bruce - What was it you did you not like about this hole?

Unless you are a BIG hitter, you get the right to left BIG slope and are blocked or partially blocked on your approach to the green. Or your really need to aim way right. I hit probably my best drive and didn't have a clear shot to the 50 yard deep green. Craig says it all above.

#10 wetlands was not finished re transition to fairway.

[Chip Gaskins]

on #8 you can sling it off the hill right to left if you can bomb it.  if you get it going just a little left it goes left hard however.

i love the approach on #8.  reminds me of the uncluttered approach to #9 at bandon trails and the green runs front to back sort of like Oakmont #1.  i made a 20 footer for a 4, however i can't remember if was a par 4 or par 5.  great hole.

[Bruce Wellmon]

on #8 you can sling it off the hill right to left if you can bomb it.  if you get it going just a little left it goes left hard however.

i love the approach on #8.  reminds me of the uncluttered approach to #9 at bandon trails and the green runs front to back sort of like Oakmont #1.  i made a 20 footer for a 4, however i can't remember if was a par 4 or par 5.  great hole.

The approach was great to #8. The problem, imo, was either the landing area or the tee's location.
Chip, when I played there was no par on the scorecard. You could play it as a long par 4 or short par 5.

[Michael Whitaker]

Correct, Bruce. No par listed on the card. You just do the best you can and add them up. 

[George Freeman]

....Though flawed, later I will do a hole by hole match between Sand Hills and Dormie.  I am sure Sand Hills will win, but it won't be a blow out.

Chip,

Any timeline on the hole by hole match between Dormie and Sand Hills?  I'm looking forward to it if you get around to it.

Cheers,

George

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Carl I do not remember a poor hole much less a terrible one at Cuscowilla. Chip how do you distinguish these course given the land and features look so similar.

[Bill_McBride]

Carl I do not remember a poor hole much less a terrible one at Cuscowilla. Chip how do you distinguish these course given the land and features look so similar.

Tiger, Cuscowilla is generally much more open, and the terrain a bit less abrupt.  The greens complexes are roughly comparable.  There are more forced carries from the tees.  I don't recall a short par 4 at Dormie that was as interesting as either #5 or #12 at Cuscowilla.

I think Cuscowilla is way underrated.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bill, I have not seen the Dormie Club. As you know we have both played Cuscowilla many times. Thanks for the comparison. I do not see any real comparisons with Clear Creek other than close in time together. I was in the minority in thinking Clear Creek is a mid level CC while Cuscowilla is upper tier to me.

[Adam_Messix]

Bill--

You didn't think that #3 at Dormie is a fabulous hole?  Frankly, I think both 3, with it's incredibly cool green, and 14 and the way it uses angles so well, are both better than 5 and 12 at Cuscowilla.  Of course, I may be in the minority. 

Both Cusco and Dormie are outstanding courses.  In a 10 round, it's probably 7-3 Dormie in my mind. 

8 at Dormie in some ways reminds me of 10 at ANGC.  You have to get a nice little going draw to get the sweet spot of the hill and run to the bottom.  Hang it right, and the approach is off a stand on your head hanging lie. 

[Matt_Ward]

First off -- before anyone can go off and proclaim some course as the best -- one would need to know the exact listing of courses that one has played to date.

Frankly, if such a listing were less than eight ( courses I would dare say that the research work is rather light.

[Rory Connaughton]

No. 8 was interesting in that 3 of the 4 players in our group hit terrific drives center left off the tee. Each caught the slope but ended up on the left side of the fairway having to hit a big hook approach due to being blocked from a direct line to the green by the trees on the left.

[Adam_Messix]

Rory--

Interesting about your group on #8 at Dormie, I wondered about that.  I played my drive down the right center, drawing it to the center and it drew down to the garden spot.  You can have the same issues with an overzealous hook on 10 at ANGC, hence my comparison. 

Matt--
My view of the best courses is always fluid because courses get better or worse in my mind based on multiple plays, seeing different hole locations, winds, firm/soft ground, weather.  It's the one danger of basing a view of a course on a one-shot visit, the person visiting may miss the quality.  I won't go any further, because it would repeat what I said in the GCA 100 thread. 

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

You tap-danced around what I posted -- there's no question that multiple plays help.

Here's what you either ignored or simply failed to understand from what I wrote.

For anyone to say "X" course is above the others in a given architect's designs -- I'd have to know how many of such courses have been played. If someone answers they have played 3-4 and then drew such a definitive conclusion I would dare say the sample size is to small for that to happen.

The statement here is that Dormie Club is the best C&C course. Well, no doubt opinions matter but I'd like to know the actual sample size and the specific courses in that listing from which such a definitive conclusion has been reached.

Simple as that ...

[Bill_McBride]

Bill--

You didn't think that #3 at Dormie is a fabulous hole?  Frankly, I think both 3, with it's incredibly cool green, and 14 and the way it uses angles so well, are both better than 5 and 12 at Cuscowilla.  Of course, I may be in the minority.  

Both Cusco and Dormie are outstanding courses.  In a 10 round, it's probably 7-3 Dormie in my mind.  

I found #3 to be pretty one dimensional.  Bash it up the fairway, the closer the better, wedge it on the agreed cool green.  

By contrast, #5 at Cuscowilla (and #5 Friars Head for that matter) has almost unlimited options for dealing with the gigantic central bunker and the awkward green with its central spine.  I really think #5 Cuscowilla might be C&C's best golf hole.

[Craig Disher]

I found #3 to be pretty one dimensional.  Bash it up the fairway, he closer the better, wedge it on the agreed cool green. 

Bill - wedge it onto the green within 10 feet of the hole but in the wrong location and walk off with a 5.  But if you can drop your wedge within a 5' CEP, no problem. 

[Adam_Messix]

Matt--

It looks like your beef with Chip's comment is that he has not seen the breadth of C & C courses to make the superlative comment that he did.  Your point is a valid one and falls in line with my comment about having seen a wide variety of courses comment in the gca top 100 thread. 

The only notable C & C's I have not played are Clear Creek and The Lost Farm, so with that in mind, it's my view that the Dormie Club is one of C & C's best efforts.  It's right up there with Friar's Head (an absolutely fabulous golf course) in my opinion.  I have tempered my comments about Sand Hills because I saw it with the wind blowing hard and helping on holes 13, 15-18 and the closers played relatively easy versus if they were playing into the teeth of the wind.  It also made 14 play easier in terms of stopping an approach on that tiny green.  I need to get back out there at some point. 

[Bill_McBride]

I found #3 to be pretty one dimensional.  Bash it up the fairway, he closer the better, wedge it on the agreed cool green. 

Bill - wedge it onto the green within 10 feet of the hole but in the wrong location and walk off with a 5.  But if you can drop your wedge within a 5' CEP, no problem. 

That's why I place #5 at Cuscowilla higher.  You can get in trouble a lot more ways there than at #3 DC, where placement of the approach is the most demanding shot.

"CEP" -- ??

[Adam_Messix]

Bill & Craig---

Hmmmm.  As far as I'm concerned, a double bogey is a double bogey is a double bogey.  If the double comes from a four putt after a misplaced approach or from a shot into a cleverly place cross bunker that creates an awkward approach, it's the same thing.  Both are great architectural devices and it's why both are wonderful holes.  I find it interesting that Bill thinks the play is to knock it as close to the green as possible because I originally thought that as well.  Upon closer inspection, I think that's correct only with particular hole locations.  I definitely do not want to be really close to the green with a back right hole location or something that's far left, there's too much stuff to deal with on the ground and I'd much rather lay back and play a full shot to those hole locations.  It's the beauty of cool short par fours, choices and decison making. 

[Craig Disher]

That's why I place #5 at Cuscowilla higher.  You can get in trouble a lot more ways there than at #3 DC, where placement of the approach is the most demanding shot.

"CEP" -- ??

Circular Error Probable - a useful measurement of the amount of inaccuracy permitted to demolish your target with a nuclear weapon.

Given the wild contours on the #3 green, correct placement of the drive can be a big help.