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Jud_T

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Re: What Five Donald Ross Courses...
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2010, 12:16:19 PM »
How about the original nine at Rolling Rock....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JNC Lyon

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Re: What Five Donald Ross Courses...
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2010, 12:46:34 PM »
I have played a few Ross courses, though most are not what would be considered his best or most pure courses.  I still have not seen Pinehurst No. 2, Seminole, Holston Hills, etc.  However, from the courses I have played, I feel like I have gotten a very good sense of what a Ross course really is.  My recommendations:

Teugega, Rome, NY: By all accounts, this under-the-radar Ross layout is one of his best preserved courses.  Sure, many of the old bunkers are now grassed over, but the skeletons are there in every case.  The routing, bunker positioning, and greens are the same as when the course was built in 1923.  The collection of Ross greens here is as good as you are likely to find, with many greens set into natural saddles or ridges.  The club struggles with encroaching trees, and this course is a good display of how trees have compromised many of Ross's great layouts.  However, the club has employed local archie Barry Jordan to restore some of the old bunkers and re-establish whispy fescues along several holes.  If you want find out why Ross was great, Teugega is a good start.

Mountain Ridge, West Caldwell, NJ: We all loved the course when we played it at Muccifest, and it is certainly a classic.  The focuses here are the routing (which brilliantly traverses a steep hillside), and the GREENS.  Routing and greens were the biggest strengths of Ross architecture, and they are hard to beat at Mountain Ridge.  The course is also a great example of Ron Prichard's restoration work.

The six Ross course of Rochester, NY: Oak Hill (East and West), CC of Rochester, Monroe, Irondequoit, Brook Lea.  Each of these six are great for learning Ross. The East shows Ross the router, and it also shows how many of his courses have been compromised by trees, Trent Jones, and championships over the years.  The West belongs in the Teugega/Mountain Ridge category, and it showcases an ideal Ross routing.  CC of Rochester shows a once-gone Ross layout that Gil Hanse brought back to life.  This was a course Ross re-did twice himself, and it includes an unusual set of Ross greens.  Monroe is another Ross classic with tons of great holes on swooping sandy land.  It also shows how re-done greens can detract from the character of a great layout.  Irondequoit was built in two parts.  The front nine shows early Ross working on outrageous land to create great golf. The back nine, constructed posthumously by JB McGovern, is Ross at his toughest.  Brook Lea is a notch below the rest, but it still has the typical Ross flair to make it a great layout.

CC of Buffalo shows a different, more low-profile bunker style from Ross.  It also showcases Ross's brilliant routing around a giant quarry.

The front nine at Thendara in Old Forge, NY demonstrates that Ross was a great designer of nine hole courses.  The greens at this course are also some of his most outrageous.  The 9th green in particular proves that Ross DID indeed build crowned greens outside of Pinehurst.

I've also played Kingswood and Orchards in New England, though neither course made a significant impression on me.

Of the courses listed here, my five would be:

1) Teugega--well-preserved Ross in Upstate NY
2) Mountain Ridge--great greens
3) Oak Hill (East)--routing, how Ross has been compromised
4) CC of Buffalo--the unique use of the quarry
5) Thendara--a nine hole Ross layout with great flair on the greens

Oak Hill West and Monroe are tremendous golf courses, but these five provide all the lessons about Ross that GCA buff needs to learn.  The moral of the story is that Ross did not build a certain type of golf course, route a course one way, or have one definitive style of bunkering or greens.  He built a great variety of courses that were natural, strategic and, above all, FUN.  If anyone asks me who my favorite architect is, my answer is still DONALD ROSS.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Craig Disher

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Re: What Five Donald Ross Courses...
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2010, 12:58:05 PM »
I'd wait on Pinehurst #2 until Coore & Crenshaw have finished their work before including it in a Ross review. I'm also suspicious that the crowned greens really are an honest indicator of Ross's design ideas. Pine Needles and Mid-Pines to my mind are better representatives and are more instructive. The rolling property there shows how Ross dealt with elevation changes and the rolled edges of the greens, especially at Pine Needles, are more representative of his green sites than #2. On the other hand what Ross did with the relatively flat ground on #2 is gca at its best.

Chris Buie

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Re: What Five Donald Ross Courses...
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2010, 01:22:32 PM »
Well, you guys are really rating Plainfield.  I hadn't realized it was that good.  

Just wanted to tell Niall that Southern Pines is in good shape now.  The greens were rolling very well last week.

Mid Pines remains my personal favorite.  It is charming all around and that is the quality that I value the most in courses.  I dabble with strenuous tests but don't find myself naturally eager to return to courses like that much.  I always look forward to an encounter with authentic charm - in courses, restaurants, people, etc.  Charm is a quaint, antiquated quality in today's culture.  It is not something our culture generally holds in esteem and therefore not something that many seek to instill in their children - with results you can see on any given day in America.  Walk through any American city and you will find not a few people that think it is perfectly fine to go through life in a charmless, unnecessarily abrasive manner.  So having to deal with charmlessness in general life duties I definitely prefer that my golfing put the accent on that - and what a real pleasure that is.

#2 may not be his best but I would say it is the most representative of what Ross was about because he lived on the course for decades and moulded it continually.  That is what I think makes it the quintessential example of how he thought a course should play.

Tim Leahy

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Re: What Five Donald Ross Courses...
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2010, 01:30:13 PM »
I never hear much about Peninsula CC in San Mateo, CA when there is talk about Ross courses. Is it lost in time or one of those courses in Ross' name only without many characteristics?
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

mark chalfant

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Re: What Five Donald Ross Courses...
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2010, 02:47:26 PM »
Metacomet    93 acres
CC of Buffalo   great green complexes
Brookside   great routing and greens

Plainfield
Longmeadow  bold site, magnificent group of   par fours
Salem