The private / public gap -- NJ, NY and PA

[Matt_Ward]

Living in the Northeast allows you the opportunity (with the right network) to play arguably the greatest courses in the USA. The problem? The gap between the best private and best public is wider in NJ, PA and NY probably more here than in any other three states connected to each other in my opinion.

I can say with some conviction that if one were to rank the best 25 courses in each of the three states just mentioned you would be lucky to have one public, two tops, among each state's respective listing.

In NJ you can say that Twisted Dune (new) might crack the top 25 -- possibly Blue Heron Pines / East and Pine Hill might deserve a peak. But that's a real stretch.

In NY you have Bethpage Black and then you literally fall off the earth -- the next being possibly Sagamore or Montauk Downs State Park if it ever got into decent shape. Some of the newer courses just outside NYC (Mansion Ridge, Centennial, etc) might deserve a look but it's more of a wish.

In PA the same story applies although the Keystone State has some possibilities with Hartefeld National & Wyncote in the Phillie area and Quick Silver & Olde Stonewall in the Steel City vicinity.

For the average non-affiliated golfer the three states are really barren. If you want quality public golf that can compete with its private counterparts you'll have to go elsewhere.

I salute other states where public golf is on par with its private side. These states have entry points for all types of golfers to really see what is possible with design. I look at such rich public states as Oregon, Wisconsin, New Mexico and Michigan, to name just four, that offer so much on both sides of the aisle.

Is the bar too high even for the best of today's modern architects to compete in the tri-stateregion of NY, NJ and PA states given the depth of quality courses that already exist there? Does this cause a more long term problem in elevating public golf among the masses?

One last note -- yes, it may be true that land is in short supply in the Garden State (still public courses are opening), but you do have opportunities in the Empire and Keystone states but so little in top notch quality that can compete with the best of the private side is forthcoming. I wonder why?

[Scott_Burroughs]

You're right about these states.  Couldn't you say the same thing about CT, MA, and RI?  In CT, you'd have Richter Park and what else?  I really don't know much abut RI and MA public courses.

Would Architects GC be close to the NJ list?  Hominy Hill?  Ballyowen?

What about Mystic Rock and the new Glen Mills on the PA list?

How good is Tallgrass on LI?

[SPDB]

For such an affluent population, CT doesn't have much in the way of inspiring golf period. Good reliable old tracks, but nothing tremendous.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Sean,

I would agree with you on CT, although Great River helped out a little last year.

[GeoffreyChilds]

Matt

In NY you have the red course at Bethpage as well.  

Long Island National is also a good new addition although it is not really designed for high handicappers.

George Bahto's course on Long Island (Stonebridge) is public as is Tallgrass (Gil Hanse).

Ballyowen is also a worthy addition from my friend Roger Rulewich.

Mansion Ridge is progressive punishment (to use another of Mike Cirba's excellent terms).  Not recommended

Centenial is to my taste an abomination to be avoided at all costs. It is all that is bad about CCFD's except it has a nice practice facility.

Connecticut

Richter Park was before the advent of CCFD's a really nice public facility geared to local residents (I think there should be much more of this!). It's a good but not top notch course that's fun to play if you can ever get a tee time. PS- The starters can not be bribed.

Great River is a new course that got some good reviews and I plan to see it early this coming season.

There is a fun public Donald Ross course whose name I can't begin to spell on the way up to Yale GC from my home. Locals really like it.

I think that New Jersey is doing the very best job locally of providing new public golf.  Too many of them are down in the southern part of the state but I'd drive to 2 hours plus in a heartbeat to go back to Twisted Dunes.

[Matt_Ward]

Gentlemen:

The courses you've named are nice additions and in some cases very good. Would they crack the top 25 in their respective state. Minus Twisted Dune I doubt it. I wonder, as I said previously, are modern day architects going elsewhere because of the stiff competition or is it related to environmental laws which are some of the toughest in the nation.

GeoffreyC:

Richter could not begin to sniff the top 10 in Connecticut.
Agree with you on Centennial -- I just mentioned it because it was a new design near NYC. Bethpage / Red clearly has a shot but until conditions improve (ditto Montauk) it's more of the same. Is the public Donald Ross course you speak about Shennecossett?

SPDB:

You too are right about the Constitution State -- a real ghost state for top quality public golf that can compete with the private side -- minus Great River and it's Joe Sixpack green fees.

ScottB:

You're right about Mystic Rock. I'd put in for contention for a high position in the Keystone State (possible top ten?) although some people really abhor the Pete Dye design. Architects's, Ballyowen and Hominy are good, but I think you can make a case for The Knoll as well in NJ. Top 25 though? Doubtful. People forget all of the small little known private wonders such as Little Mill, Olde York, Knickerbocker, Alpine and Montclair, to name just a few.

In Massachusetts you have a number of courses that can challenge for the top 15. They would include Crumpin-Fox, Shaker Heights (Harvard, MA), a few of the layouts near the Cape also have possibilities.

Public golf is soooo low minus a few choices to have any real sort of meaning. I know there are some on the way (clearly Twisted Dune is a solid one in NJ), but public golf is really the "B" leagues when compared to private. That doesn't happen in just about all the other states with the exception of Arizona which is haven to many private development communities and their high profile designers.

Do modern architects "dumb down" their designs in this hotbed area to appeal to the masses?

Look at Maryland -- at least there you have Bulle Rock (with another 18 on the way), Beechtree, Lighthouse and P.B. Dye all competing for placement in the top ten? Why there and not in the states already mentioned?

[SPDB]

Tommy Fazio really did a pretty good job with his routing given how narrow the strip of land is. Hemmed in by a river on one side, and traintracks on the others. That was my favorite part of the course.

Also, Rulewich's Fox Hopyard didn't hurt things, i'm anxious to see how this course matures - they opened far too early and lost a bunch of greens.

There is a lot of building going on in the state though, and by some pretty good architects. I think Smyers is doing something with Lendl in NW CT (Charter Oak GC?). I also think that Mungeam (fresh off Olympia Fields work) is also doing something in the New Haven area.

The public situation is deplorable though.

[SPDB]

Matt - I think Bergstol and his Empire Group have really made great strides in improving the public golf situation in NJ, and not just developing - I consider his design at Pine Barrens one of the better in New Jersey (I haven't played TD, but that too is Empire). What's the story with the course he's developing in Bayonne?

Also - do you know who is buying Due Process from that crook Brennan? what a scumbag that guy was/is. Excuse the strong language.

[Patrick Hitt]

Matt,
You get a good idea how golf starved the metro New York area is when an old photo starts the Pelham Bay vs Dyker debate. Without a car in NYC I took the 2 train from Brooklyn Heights to Penn station and grabbed a 1 hour train to Farmingdale and hiked the last mile to Bethpage. If I only had 6 hours the R to Dyker would do. The car opened up options like Douglaston, Pelham Bay, or the further LI options that also now include the crowded Colonial Hills or Long Island National and the trek to Montauk. We could never get on Hominy Hill or Richter Park and had enough trouble dialing for tee times at Bethpage. I greatly increased my chances at the Black by going early and filling in for a no show. I have lived in Chicago and DC and enjoyed much more availability in both cities - although it took a few years for DC to really build up a number of interesting tracks. No more going to Pohick Bay or Herndon Centennial.
I left NY before the recent additions on Long Island and look foreward to seeing a few this summer.
I have not had much time in Philly to try out the few good public tracks. The South Jersey shore has greatly increased the amount of quality golf and it's nice to see guys like Archie get involved in providing quality golf at Twisted Dune for all the right reasons. I hope the recent trends in the Mid Atlantic continue to filter int the Metro area.

[BCrosby]

Why so few great courses in Connecticut?

The state has:

1. Money, even lots of old money
2. Wonderful terrain, from rocky coastline to hills to mountains
3. Decent weather, moderated by Long Island Sound
4. A large, educated golfing population

Anyone have a theory?

Bob

[Anthony_Nysse]

I agree with Matt about the large gap. I played Garden City, The Creek, Westhampton, Quage Field, Piping Rock, etc, but also played Long Island National and Tallgrass. He's my opinion on 2 of the newer public tracks on the island.

Long Island National:
   Nothing to brag about. The connecting fairway on #2 and 3 is interesting. I can't believe that the landing area on #4 is a pit of long grass...what a terrible hole. #6 reminds me of some golf from my home state.(Michigan) Doesn't fit with the rest of the course. #9 is a neat par 3 finisher. #13's green is a bit off the wall, #14 is boring, the double green on #15 and #17 is uninspiring, at best. I also think that the mounding there is very much un-natural. It's so "not Long Island" "LIN" is trying to be a big club, but they just don't have the course to do it.

Tallgrass Golf Club.
   Interesting place. I LOVED the bunkering...I like the fescues growing up around them and how they have taken shape. #1 is a great hole to get a birdie on. (I stuck an 8 iron to 4 feet the first time for an eagle, even.) #4 is a neat par 3 with the green running away. I like #5 tee connecting with #13 approach, ala #17 green and #18 tee at Lost Dunes. #5 has a ditch running thru it though. #6 is a great risk/reward par 4 with a HUGE bunker guarding the left side and a servere drop off if you're long. #8's green is too marrow for the club that will be hit, with bunkers behind a green that's running away. #10 is another drivable par 4 with a great green and a bunker the size of this computer screen. #15 is a PW par 3 with a wild green that gives a lot of flavor. #15's green is much too small for a par five...easily the smallest on the course. #17 is a Redan like hole...tough in the wind and #18 is a quant finisher. I liked Tallgrass much better cause it offered better variety, pluse it's also a treat to play a Gil Hanse course. RTJ, Jr dubbed LIN "One of the finest courses on the island...." Right. Maybe he was wishing he helped his brother at Bethpage!!

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt:

Having also grown up in the Northeast I completely agree with your observation.  A town like Cleveland blows away New York or Philly when it comes to golf for the average man.

My impression of Pittsburgh is different.  It is more like Cleveland than Philadelphia when it comes to decent $20-30 golf.

As for CT, when I'm home visiting my folks in Greenwich, I sometimes play Bruce Memorial, a decent RTJ design for what little you pay to play it.

[Craig Rokke]

I agree that there is a large gap between public and private.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that the best 2 or 3 public courses in PA are no better than the average private course in suburban Philadelphia.

[JBergan]

Excellent topic, and one that hit home for me, living in the Philly 'burbs.

The nearest public courses to me are Rancocas (RTJ), Willowbrook (Gordon) and Pennsauken (??).  None of these three come close to the level of the nearest private courses, Riverton (Ross) and Tavistock (Findlay).  Rancocas is actually pretty good, with a few great holes, a handfull of good holes, and just a couple of ho hum holes, but it suffers from its location and its ownership.

Where I live (a few miles from Laurel Creek), the land that may be golf course suitable is getting snatched up by real estate developers.  I don't know for sure, but maybe the cost of decent land has been driven up by the Toll Brothers, Rylands, etc. to the point hat it's not economically practical to use the land for a golf course.

This still doesn't explain why there are no public courses in my immediate area designed by any of the architectural legends, back when land may have been more reasonably priced.

[Brad Miller]

Played Spit Rock-Pelham(very public) this past weekend, John Van Kleek(WPA-1937) Slow round and ok-poor conditioning, but it had wonderful green complexes! Most have not been touched and/or maintained  very well but you could get a good feel for the potential that lies there. Had a Raynor feel, without the classic holes, interesting undulating greens, humps bumps etc, with large scaled bunkering. Many holes had those great visual bunkers well short of the greens. One of my tests for how interesting the GC's are is : am I happy to spend significant time putting and chipping around many of them, at Spit Rock the answer is yes, in fact we spent a good amount of time  playing around number 9 while waiting to go off.
Here is the big leep, this course fixed up with better ongoing maintance might actually sniff the NY State top 25. Only reservation I have about this is the tightness of the playing corridors, particuarly in summer. The GC's are that good! The GC's would be best viewed in a cart and not during a five and a half hour round.
Geoff Childs, am I crazy?

[Brad Miller]

Played Spit Rock-Pelham(very public) this past weekend, John Van Kleek(WPA-1937) Slow round and ok-poor conditioning, but it had wonderful green complexes! Most have not been touched and/or maintained  very well but you could get a good feel for the potential that lies there. Had a Raynor feel, without the classic holes, interesting undulating greens, humps bumps etc, with large scaled bunkering. Many holes had those great visual bunkers well short of the greens. One of my tests for how interesting the GC's are is : am I happy to spend significant time putting and chipping around many of them, at Spit Rock the answer is yes, in fact we spent a good amount of time  playing around number 9 while waiting to go off.
Here is the big leep, this course fixed up with better ongoing maintance might actually sniff the NY State top 25. Only reservation I have about this is the tightness of the playing corridors, particuarly in summer. The GC's are that good! The GC's would be best viewed in a cart and not during a five and a half hour round.
Geoff Childs, am I crazy?

[GeoffreyChilds]

Matt

Yes, Shennecossett is the Ross course I didn't want to attempt to spell.

We had a mini GCA outing on Saturday at Split Rock with Brad and Corey Miller and Noel Freeman.  If someone can repost that wonderful old picture that was on this site recently it would show the great potential of that place. The greens complexes are first rate (better then most private clubs in NY met area) and if Bethpage had those greens it would crack the top 20 lists easy. There is great variety in the greens as well with different shapes, slopes and dropoffs into bunkers. Its a course that screams for firm conditions and the ground game.  It can be stretched to over 6700 yards. The routing is well thought out with tees adjacent to each green and there are many natural undulations, elevations and proximity to the local wetlands. The 16th hole is a long par 4 (~440-460) that has what I would call a triple plateau green comples with one mid left plateau falling off into a bunker and another back right plateau falling off into another bunker.  Good stuff. The finishing four holes could hold their own against most private courses in Westchester, NJ or Pennsylvania.  I said it before but I wish the city would invest a few of those $18000000 they are giving JN to build a new course under the Whitestone Bridge into Split Rock and they would have a place that people would flock to and pay good money.

[TEPaul]

Matt;

It's a interesting question why the there's a gap in the types of courses you mention in the area you mention and it's something I've certainly thought a lot about for a number of years being involved with a few local golf associations.

There was a time in the extended Philly suburburn area before the upturn cycle about 12-13 years ago when no golf course of any kind had been built in that area period. With the upturn a number of courses came online in the areas you mentioned though--probably twice as many semi-private (CCFAD) as private ones.

My take on why this area is generally the way it is, though, is simply due to the demographics (large metro-areas) and the age of the area! It's very similar from about Baltimore right on up the northeast corridor, and for the same reasons I believe.

[Paul Richards]

What really amazes me is that we can go to Great Britain and
Ireland, and play all the great courses, with only a modest
amount of trouble.

But to play the great courses of America, especially in the
Northeast if almost impossible, unless you have great
connections!

[GeoffreyChilds]

Brad

When you state "Geoff Childs, am I crazy?" you shouldn't tempt me like that  

[TEPaul]

PaulR;

I don't know much about European clubs or courses but isn't the accessibility to the European courses largely due to the basic economic structure of the European clubs?

Wouldn't it be true that the average member of some of the best European courses basically pays a good deal less per year for his membership compared to the average American club member for a comparable golf course? And because of that lower rate the club makes up for it by income from guest play.

The reason I say this is because I asked a member of Royal County Down how much guest play they allowed in rounds per year. He said he had no idea, as I recall, but he did say they only looked at guest play as a means to derive a certain annual budgeted amount of money in guest round income.

[Paul Richards]

TEPaul:

You are absolutely correct.

On my first trip over, we were SHOCKED   to find out that
all of our caddies were "members."  They told us that while
we had paid about 40 Pounds to play (1993 dollars), they
paid like 80 Pounds for the entire year!

I wish it was that cheap to join a great club here ....

[TEPaul]

PaulR:

Yeah, that happened to me and one other of our group from Philly at Port Stewart last summer. He scheduled a round and we showed up a little before sunrise. The club was closed and he'd arranged for two caddies who were members. So we teed off before sunrise with these guys carrying a bag each. We were out on about #5 when my caddy told me they were both members. Apparently my caddy/member was a real good player. Not knowing Euro golf I was feeling sort of strange about that.

Had I known about that before teeing off I sure would have asked them to get their bags and we could have had a fourball of it. Is that done? I don't know about my friend from Philly but I like carrying my own and I would have paid the rate just for them to show us the course.

That didn't happen but we had a wonderful morning of it anyway--boy did I play good that day! They were great chaps--took us around to get some booze to give to the Portrush fellows we were playing later in the day and then took us back to our hotel.

You're right, it isn't remotely the same way in America!

[Paul Richards]

TEPaul:

Similar story in Tralee.  The club champ caddies for me.

How weird is that?

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Paul:

Yes.  Europe is different.  Rather than charging an annual membership fee, Ballybunion could actually pay a dividend to members based on guest play.