Oak Hill (East) - Tuesday, 10/5

[Ron Csigo]

Hello All,

I have one open spot for tomorrow morning, 10/5.  Please PM me if interested.  First come, first serve.

[JNC Lyon]

Hello All,

I have one open spot for tomorrow morning, 10/5.  Please PM me if interested.  First come, first serve.

Well, since OHCC is my home course, I would love to join.  However, I have classes here in Hamilton and an interview tomorrow.  Therefore, no go. 

I hope you enjoy the course.  You will get to see the work they are doing on the 5th, 6th, and 15th greens (all Fazios that are being re-done). Also, please take a look at the West Course as well--there is more Ross out there, and it is my favorite of the two courses.

[Ron Csigo]

Hello All,

I have one open spot for tomorrow morning, 10/5.  Please PM me if interested.  First come, first serve.

Well, since OHCC is my home course, I would love to join.  However, I have classes here in Hamilton and an interview tomorrow.  Therefore, no go. 

I hope you enjoy the course.  You will get to see the work they are doing on the 5th, 6th, and 15th greens (all Fazios that are being re-done). Also, please take a look at the West Course as well--there is more Ross out there, and it is my favorite of the two courses.

Wish you could have joined.  I'm playing the East Course in the morning and will probably walk the West Course.

[Ben Stephens]

Hello All,

I have one open spot for tomorrow morning, 10/5.  Please PM me if interested.  First come, first serve.

Well, since OHCC is my home course, I would love to join.  However, I have classes here in Hamilton and an interview tomorrow.  Therefore, no go. 

I hope you enjoy the course.  You will get to see the work they are doing on the 5th, 6th, and 15th greens (all Fazios that are being re-done). Also, please take a look at the West Course as well--there is more Ross out there, and it is my favorite of the two courses.

JNC

All Fazios being redone?? you mean just the greens itself or the actual hole? No chance of reverting it to the original Ross layout?

Cheers
Ben

[michael damico]

that's great to hear. I worked maintenance at OHCC for roughly four years and as a future architect (hopefully) the Fazio greens just stood out on the East course.

your comment of the West course is spot on. Fazio's team, primarily Tom Marzolf, has both removed and reshaped bunkers, but alot of Ross's character is left in tact. In my opinion, the West is where it's at.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I was at Oak Hill a couple of weeks ago..it was in superb condition and the membership was very excited about the chnages planned for the 'fazio" holes.
I am of the understanding that it is only the greens that are being adjusted, removng some of the severe contours and allowing for more pin placemnets in the future.
What great courses though...tough as nails on the East and a adelight to play the more "untouched" Ross layout of the West, which itself has plenty of bite !
I just love the place, even if it beats you up from one tee to 18 green..a atough tough golf course.

[Dan Herrmann]

Any chance that Oak Hill will begin a tree management program?

[JNC Lyon]

Michael W-P: You basically hit the nail on the head.  Marzloff's team is re-doing the greens only on those holes.  That should be a big improvement, but, of course, it is nowhere near what needs to be done.

Dan: It's hard to say at this point.  The folks at OHCC seem more interested in making the East major-ready than trimming trees or restoring Ross.  As a result, the East is tweaked every few years, and the West Course remains more or less untouched.  However, as the 2013 PGA approaches, I am thinking that the club will see it needs to cut back encroaching limbs on the East.  You saw the picture of the tree on 14 East (a great par four, I might add).  That's the tip of the iceberg.  However, I know the club is thinking about taking down some trees in the future, so we will see.  I wouldn't hold my breath for a Oakmont-esque re-do though.

[Dan Herrmann]

It's a shame.  Can you imagine the vistas you'd get if some of those trees were removed!  Not to mention better turf health, better playing conditions, and two Ross classics finally playing the way Ross intended...

SOOO much potential for greatness.  My fear is that Oak Hill's standing as a great will decrease  over time if these trees are left untouched.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I would be interseted to hear, where in particular one would suggest tree removal.
Not to say that I disagree with the concept at all..just some opinions on where to start..
Example...Right side of number 9 I would imagine could use a little "trim"

[JNC Lyon]

I would be interseted to hear, where in particular one would suggest tree removal.
Not to say that I disagree with the concept at all..just some opinions on where to start..
Example...Right side of number 9 I would imagine could use a little "trim"

Michael,

You may not want to get me started on this one...

2 off the tee.  They only recently trimmed back the tree that hung over the entire fairway and forced everyone to hit a hook.

The specimen tree on 3 to the left.

Trim back the tunnel off the tee on 4 and the take down the "goal-post" trees on the second shot.

Trim back the tunnel on 5, especially on the left.

Trim the trees that hang over an approach shot from the right side of 7.  Seriously, this hole is one of the toughest 4s in the world, do we really need overhanging trees to make it more difficult.

Trim the tree hanging over the right side of the 8th green.

Take down all trees left and right on 9: This hole has the coolest land on the property, and it needs to be showcased.

Take down the "goal-post" trees on the second shot on 10.  Also, take down the willow that blocks all chances at recovery from the left fairway bunker.

Take down trees on both sides of 12, which is definitely the narrowest hole on the golf course.

Take down the tree that overhangs the third shot on the left of 13.

Take out the tree guarding the fairway bunker on 14, and take out the Christmas tree on the opposite side of the fairway.

Take out the trash trees left of 16 to open up some views.

Cut out some of the trees left 18: that hole looks like the Forbidden Forest on Television.

That sounds like a lot of trimming, but honestly, it is just a start.  There are just so many trees out there that block out playing angles and mask the great land features on the property.  Donald Ross originally bunkered the East Course to showcase its grand scale and beautiful contours.  Taking out trees would be a step towards highlighting these features that Ross wanted golfers to see.

[JNC Lyon]

It's a shame.  Can you imagine the vistas you'd get if some of those trees were removed!  Not to mention better turf health, better playing conditions, and two Ross classics finally playing the way Ross intended...

SOOO much potential for greatness.  My fear is that Oak Hill's standing as a great will decrease  over time if these trees are left untouched.

Dan, you do not have to tell me.  A few of us have been supporting tree removal at Oak Hill, but we are stifled by old-time members who do not want change (where were they when the course was changing?)  Watching the tree situation get out of control at OH is like watching a car accident in slow motion.

Interestingly, much of the trees problems occur on the East.  The West has a few issues here and there, but overall the West is fairly well-maintained in terms of trees.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I would think all of those suggestions would be high on anybody's list..The course is great,but with some trimmimg would be even more spectacular.

[Ally Mcintosh]

It's a shame.  Can you imagine the vistas you'd get if some of those trees were removed!  Not to mention better turf health, better playing conditions, and two Ross classics finally playing the way Ross intended...

SOOO much potential for greatness.  My fear is that Oak Hill's standing as a great will decrease  over time if these trees are left untouched.

Dan, you do not have to tell me.  A few of us have been supporting tree removal at Oak Hill, but we are stifled by old-time members who do not want change (where were they when the course was changing?)  Watching the tree situation get out of control at OH is like watching a car accident in slow motion.

Interestingly, much of the trees problems occur on the East.  The West has a few issues here and there, but overall the West is fairly well-maintained in terms of trees.

That sounds like some other courses with 36 holes.... The members are afraid of change on the senior course but will tinker with the newer course...

Sunningdale has practiced tree removal on the New course but none on the Old as far as I can tell... I'm presuming it is for similar reasons...

[John Blain]

JNC_Lyon-

I agree 100% with your hole-by-hole comments about the trees on the east course. The only place where I would disagree is every tree that you suggest trimming should be taken out completely.

Also, what about the ridiculous and ugly willow trees between holes five and seven, especially that willow on seven that borders the creek in the landing area. Those two huge trees short and right of the seventh green also need to come out but that will never, ever happen.

Oak Hill is a club that is proud of it's trees but it has become more of a tree farm and less of a golf course over the years.

You and I and a few other members think trees should come but the other 895 members want more trees, not fewer. It's a shame but I don't see it changing anytime soon, there just aren't enough members there that know anything about architecture.

[Ronald Montesano]

And I agree with the land on number 9...the land from holes 1-8 is gently rising and falling, then you get to nine and the heaving, billowing waves of a shipwrecking typhoon...absolutely amazing and makes you wonder why only there.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC_Lyon-

I agree 100% with your hole-by-hole comments about the trees on the east course. The only place where I would disagree is every tree that you suggest trimming should be taken out completely.

Also, what about the ridiculous and ugly willow trees between holes five and seven, especially that willow on seven that borders the creek in the landing area. Those two huge trees short and right of the seventh green also need to come out but that will never, ever happen.

Oak Hill is a club that is proud of it's trees but it has become more of a tree farm and less of a golf course over the years.

You and I and a few other members think trees should come but the other 895 members want more trees, not fewer. It's a shame but I don't see it changing anytime soon, there just aren't enough members there that know anything about architecture.

John,

My suggestions were just a start, there is so much that needs to be done there.  I know there are a few people out there who realize the tree situation is off, and hopefully people will realize soon that there is problem.  Brad Klein would offer great advice about what to do at Oak Hill, but whenever you mention his name there people (the ones who know who he is) say "that's the guy who doesn't like Oak Hill, he doesn't know anything).  All we can do is write about it.

Ron, I think those micro-contours exist a few places at Oak Hill, but mostly on the West Course.  If you go to neighboring Irondequoit, the front nine has that type of land (or more extreme) on every hole.  The contours are definitely part of the Rochester-area landscape, but they are dispersed randomly.  That's one of the things that makes Rochester golf so interesting.

[John Blain]

John
I would agree Brad Klein would be great for Oak Hill. I know he spoke at CC of Rochester and Sleepy Hollow before their restorations were started and I heard he was terrific.

The only problem with bringing Brad to OHCC is that he will tell them what they need to do and therein lies the problem....

[Dan Herrmann]

Come on - At 11PM some night, we'll attack with chain saws from over on Monroe.  We'll cut a hole in the fence behind Wendy's (across from Wegmans) and have at it.

The members will love it - lots of firewood for those cold upstate NY winters!

[Carl Nichols]

Ron-
Very kind of you to make this offer. Hope you had a great day.
Carl

[JNC Lyon]

Come on - At 11PM some night, we'll attack with chain saws from over on Monroe.  We'll cut a hole in the fence behind Wendy's (across from Wegmans) and have at it.

The members will love it - lots of firewood for those cold upstate NY winters!

Top five plans I've heard all year.  Of course, a couple of my friends live right on the course, so we could always run ops from there too.

Actually there used to be a hole in that fence between the West Course and Wendy's.  On a quiet fall day, we'd hit our tee shots on 13 West, then sneak through the fence to get a Burger and a Frosty!  I wonder if that hole is still there...

[Mac Plumart]

Ron...

well, it is 9:30 pm.  How was the day, the course, etc?

[Ron Csigo]

Ron...

well, it is 9:30 pm.  How was the day, the course, etc?

Mac -

So tired...  Got beat up pretty good today.  I will comment tomorrow.

[michael damico]

Actually there used to be a hole in that fence between the West Course and Wendy's.  On a quiet fall day, we'd hit our tee shots on 13 West, then sneak through the fence to get a Burger and a Frosty!  I wonder if that hole is still there...

it's still there...

JNC_Lyon-

Oak Hill is a club that is proud of it's trees but it has become more of a tree farm and less of a golf course over the years.

its funny you say that; wasn't Dr. John R. Williams (I believe was his name) a self taught arborist who was green committee chairman at the time they undertook the planting of over 400 trees promptly after Robert Trent Jones made his changes for the US Open?

Donald Kladstrap wrote a thoroughly researched history of the evolution of the course. It is eye opening to see the wonderfully depicted overlays of the original hole plans over the existing.

[JNC Lyon]

Actually there used to be a hole in that fence between the West Course and Wendy's.  On a quiet fall day, we'd hit our tee shots on 13 West, then sneak through the fence to get a Burger and a Frosty!  I wonder if that hole is still there...

it's still there...

JNC_Lyon-

Oak Hill is a club that is proud of it's trees but it has become more of a tree farm and less of a golf course over the years.

its funny you say that; wasn't Dr. John R. Williams (I believe was his name) a self taught arborist who was green committee chairman at the time they undertook the planting of over 400 trees promptly after Robert Trent Jones made his changes for the US Open?

John R. Williams started planting trees before RTJ made his changes to the East Course in the 1950s.  Williams grew saplings in his yard and then transplanted them to the Oak Hill property.  He added a lot more than 400 trees => I believe his plantings numbered in the 1000s.  Williams, who was a non-golfer, is still revered at the club today.  For my money, Oak Hill members have more love for Williams than they do for Donald Ross.

Donald Kladstrap wrote a thoroughly researched history of the evolution of the course. It is eye opening to see the wonderfully depicted overlays of the original hole plans over the existing.

Kladstrup's volume on the evolution of the East Course is an interesting one.  However, some of the bunkering shown in that volume was likely different.  I obtained a 1930 aerial of the golf course that shows the original bunker scheme of the golf course to be different from Ross's original plans.  I will try and post it on here.