Worst Ryder Cup Ever?

[John Moore II]

John K. Moore writes:
Dan King-for what its worth, in competition, golfers are only allowed 40 seconds to play a shot (from what I recall) IIRC, the times if you are 'on the clock' are 1 minute if first to play and 40 seconds if second or later.

But this is only true if you are on the clock. If everyone plays at a snail's pace, nobody ever gets put on the clock. With Harrington today, he took what has become the typical amount of time to line up his putt, looking at it from every conceivable angle, practice putts, etc... Then he lined up for his putt and then stood motionless for 60 seconds.

I would make every single golfer play his shot in 20 seconds. You can take 40 seconds if you want, just add a penalty stroke to your score. You want to take 60 seconds, fine, add two.

Slow golfers are rude, and should not be rewarded for their rudeness.

Cheers,
Dan King

A true gentleman is one who is never unintentionally rude.
 --Oscar Wilde

Dan-Even if we just held all players to the 60/40 second standards, pace would improve greatly, I think. Only problem is, you would have to have an official with every single group to time the players. Then you get into rules questions, etc., etc.

[Dan King]

Kenny Baer writes:
I agree with you; but are you not in one sentence arguing for a change in rules to make the game better then in the very next sarcasticly stating that a change in rules is to dishonor the game.

I don't believe I ever said change is bad. I personally believe change away from the spirit of the game is bad, change toward the spirit of the game is good. I have thousands of ideas how to improve golf.

I believe one of the important aspects of the game is to keep your bluidy hands off the golf ball. You apparently disagree and think touching the golf ball is perfectly fine. My guess is you see golf as more about the shots. I see it more as a mental exercise.

A typical argument by someone who cannot legitimately defend their position;

I'm rubber, you're glue. Anything you say bounces off me and sticks to you.

you are taking a very specific suggestion I made (I suggested you deserve a clean lie in the fairway and should be allowed to move your ball a mere inches) and exaggerating it 10fold, what if my response to your suggestion about requiring players to take 20 seconds for each shot and said we should make them sprint from shot to shot and if you don't finish in under 2.5 hrs then they should be banned from playing the next tournament

If the game is about the shots, and not about the test -- then any move away from natures inconsistencies should be exactly what you want. The inconsistencies inherent in nature is one of the things I love about golf. I like the test of seeing how a golfer handles a poor result from a perfect shot as much as a I enjoy seeing a good result from a bad shot. These used to be tests inherent in the game. The idea that all good shots should be appropriately rewarded is repugnant to me. Rather than you and your ilk screwing up golf, I'd rather you "fair" golfers build your own courses, using modern technology to make the game "fair."

Cheers,
Dan King

Golf is not a game of great shots. It's a game of most accurate misses. The people who win make the smallest mistakes.
 --Gene Littler

[Kenny Baer]

Dan, I agree with most of what you are saying.

A ball that ends up in the fairway is in the fairway, that is the result; if mounds in the fairway kick that ball in the rough then so be it.

Got to go.  Good night.

[Dan King]

John K. Moore writes:
Dan-Even if we just held all players to the 60/40 second standards, pace would improve greatly, I think. Only problem is, you would have to have an official with every single group to time the players. Then you get into rules questions, etc., etc.

I don't watch a ton of golf, but watching the Ryder Cup there seemed to be some 30 people inside the ropes (One of them was an official, so no problem at the Ryder Cup.) It seems it wouldn't be all that tough for the organizers to add one more volunteer per group and giving him or her a stop watch. If it is a question of the cost of the stop watches, I'll pay for them if they call it the King Rule.

A kid times each golfer. If one of them consistently goes over 20 seconds he calls an official who comes and verifies. No warning, no second chances. If the official witnesses a player taking more than 20 seconds they are penalized. 

Golf will not be fixed until the tours start cracking down on rude golfers. As long as the tours have rude golfers, the Aholes ahead of me on the course will continue to be just as rude as their heroes.

Cheers,
Dan King

They ought to invoke the same-day rule.
 --Paul Azinger (on the slow play of the Langer/Faldo team at the 1995 Ryder Cup)

[Sean_A]

JNC,

If you hit it in the fairway you are by the architects intent meant to have an advantage and a clean lie; I am not an archie but never heard one who designed for poor lies in the fairway minus an uneven stance. I can see how it does change the arch intent if you are allowed to move the ball up to a club length; should be changed so that you can only move it a matter of inches.

Your argument if you hit it in a bunker in the middle of the fairway is a poor one at best; if you hit it in a bunker you are in a bunker regardless of where the bunker is located.

Architect's intent?  I know that no Golden Age course was built under the maintenance ethic that no blade of grass will be out of place.  Fairways were not perfectly cut back in the day.  You could get a good lie, or you could get an indifferent one.  That's called Rub of the Green.  This principle still holds true on many links courses, including my club in the UK, Deal.

How far do we take your thesis that "if you are in the fairway you deserve a perfect lie"?  Does that mean everyone deserves a flat stance with a perfect look at the green?  From what you are saying, all links courses, and indeed, any great course in the world, is completely unfair.

JNC

While I agree with you and Dan in principle, in practice its another matter.  Be honest, did you see a lot of advantage gained by guys dropping/placing out of wet areas in fairways?  On flatish fairways it often doesn't make a tosh of difference.  In truth, often times a guy has a flatish lie and must drop on a drier slope which gives a more difficult lie.  Now, if your case is about watching guys hack out of plugged lies or from water, well I can't agree.  Its a rather stupid concept to have a "fairway" which offers a horrible lie after horrible lie when someone splits the short stuff.  In other words, that wouldn't be fun for me and I would steer clear of courses which offered those sort of conditions.  Okay, I can see if its only an issue now and again during a round, but if its happening to guys hole after hole its nonsense.  Mud on the ball is an issue I may be able to agree with you because I know there is a skill in dealing with that sort of situation, but again, if its happening hole after hole quite honestly the course should be closed.  LCP is a way for comps to continue so life's schedules can be met.  Otherwise, the damn Ryder Cup would still be on today if we waited for the clourse to be playable.  

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

I don't watch a ton of golf, but watching the Ryder Cup there seemed to be some 30 people inside the ropes (One of them was an official, so no problem at the Ryder Cup.) It seems it wouldn't be all that tough for the organizers to add one more volunteer per group and giving him or her a stop watch. If it is a question of the cost of the stop watches, I'll pay for them if they call it the King Rule.

Cheers,
Dan King

They ought to invoke the same-day rule.
 --Paul Azinger (on the slow play of the Langer/Faldo team at the 1995 Ryder Cup)

Dan you are quite right there is a huge amount of people inside the ropes and they must add, conservatively, a minimum of  36 mins a round.  First no player will even consider taking his club until they are all settled and that takes time particularly around the greens.  Then between holes they follow the players funnelling  through the narrow cordon off the back of the green, out into another narrow cordon around the next tee. Again players wait for them to settle before starting their routine.


If pace of play is to be tackled then each match doesn’t need to be accompanied by 18 photographers, WAGS, mothers, friends, captain’s assistants and err... a bloke with a stop watch.


Honourable exceptions to slow player awards, Johnson and McIlroy.
Decide, club, hit.- works for them.

[Mark Pearce]

Also this slow play is nonsense; I have played with several GCAers and never gotten around in less than 4 hrs while walking and I don't think anyone would ever accuse me of slow play.  Those rounds were by no means serious and we weren't grinding over every putt.  Walking and playing golf with more than 2 people takes longer than 4 hrs unless you are rushing; if you are grinding it takes closer to 5.

Utter Rubbish.  At my club we play medals in threeballs.  Most groups get round in three and a half hours.  If it gets to four there are complaints.  There is no excuse at all, ever, for five hours, even in a fourball.  Indeed, a fourball playing at a reasonable pace  should easily manage four hours without any rushing.  There's a difference between rushing and avoiding delay.

GCAers can be slow.  I was disappointed at the pace of play at BUDA on a couple of occasions and at Southerndown where the fourball I was in (with three of the better GCAers for pace of play) was held up by two threeballs in front.  It is certainly true that a few of us could think a bit harder about pace of play.

[Sean_A]

Also this slow play is nonsense; I have played with several GCAers and never gotten around in less than 4 hrs while walking and I don't think anyone would ever accuse me of slow play.  Those rounds were by no means serious and we weren't grinding over every putt.  Walking and playing golf with more than 2 people takes longer than 4 hrs unless you are rushing; if you are grinding it takes closer to 5.

Utter Rubbish.  At my club we play medals in threeballs.  Most groups get round in three and a half hours.  If it gets to four there are complaints.  There is no excuse at all, ever, for five hours, even in a fourball.  Indeed, a fourball playing at a reasonable pace  should easily manage four hours without any rushing.  There's a difference between rushing and avoiding delay.

GCAers can be slow.  I was disappointed at the pace of play at BUDA on a couple of occasions and at Southerndown where the fourball I was in (with three of the better GCAers for pace of play) was held up by two threeballs in front.  It is certainly true that a few of us could think a bit harder about pace of play.

Yes, at Burnham the weekly Stableford usually takes about 3:45 in 3balls though it should be done in 3:30 if you ask me.  Medal certainly takes longer, but then longer tees are used (not sure why) - I tend to avoid the monthly medal. 

Contrary to all myths, from my experience GCAers as a goup tend to be slowish golfers, but then it only takes a few well placed slowbies to slow the entire group down.  Saturday at Pennard was PAINFULLY slow.  Porthcawl was alright pace and Sunday was tolerable - just, but should have gone quicker if a better format were chosen.  I never, ever want to play two singles matches in a group again, but then I never understood the importance of singles at Buda (or whatever) anyway unless each 2ball can have a tee slot.  The odd thing is there are some very quick GCAers out there.  I think The African Animal should put up Young JNC for honourary membership at Huntercombe - he is that quick. 

Ciao

[Jim Nugent]

I would make every single golfer play his shot in 20 seconds. You can take 40 seconds if you want, just add a penalty stroke to your score. You want to take 60 seconds, fine, add two.

Dan King

I like this idea.  When does the clock start?  e.g., say you are first up on the tee.  When do they start counting your 20 seconds?  Same on other shots. 

[Brent Hutto]

I would make every single golfer play his shot in 20 seconds. You can take 40 seconds if you want, just add a penalty stroke to your score. You want to take 60 seconds, fine, add two.

Dan King

I like this idea.  When does the clock start?  e.g., say you are first up on the tee.  When do they start counting your 20 seconds?  Same on other shots. 

The first one's for free. I say if you hit the damned ball in 20 seconds or less on the other shots and putts then you're allowed to take as long as you like on the tee. Eat your PB&J sandwiches, hold a cell-phone conference call with your swing coaches and shrinks, catch a few movie trailers on your iPhone...but once you tee off play the ball in 20 seconds once its your turn. Surely that's a fair deal. It would still save Jim Furyk an hour a round.

[Kenny Baer]

Mark,

I agree many golfers are very slow, particularly ones on the PGA tour; I will also agree that some courses can be played walking in 3 hrs or less with a twosome and possibly 3hrs or a little more with a 3some and 3:30-45 w/ a 4some. 

On certain courses it makes it close to impossible; I am not a slow golfer, I just have noticed how long it actually takes to play golf when walking on certain golf courses.  Played with some GCAers at East Lake about a month ago and we finished in 5:00; we waited on a few shots at most, the other guys in our group were not slow and played when ready. It is a big hard golf course; could we have shaved 30 minutes off of our time, maybe, could we have shaved an 1hr, not possible while still attempting to remain competitive. 

[Mac Plumart]

Played with some GCAers at East Lake about a month ago and we finished in 5:00

Kenny...no way, no freakin' way...you are WAY off...we didn't take more than 4 hours 59 minutes!!!  Get your facts straight!!   

If I remember correctly the course was pretty packed (an oddity) and it was just about set for the Tour Championship...thick rough, hard greens, and getting slick.  Anyway it is a hard course...add those things on top of that and it takes awhile to play.

[Kenny Baer]

Mac,

Wasn't by any means a knock, sometimes I have trouble putting my words to the keypad as I am typing fast and the point I want to make would require me to sit and type for 30 minutes.

What I was trying to say is that playing golf and walking with a foursome on most golf courses in the USA takes a long time; playing golf and walking with a twosome takes a long time as well.  I am sure that Celtic Manor is on the extreme end of courses which create slow play, as is East Lake, as is Atlanta Country Club, as are probably 90+% of courses played in professional golf events.

Some old school courses where the tees are right next to the greens and the total acreage of the property is small then I can see a walking foursome getting around in 4hrs......possibly.

I have been cognizant of how long it takes me to play golf and just have realized that it takes a good while and I do not consider myself a slow golfer.  The faster I get around typically depends on the course itself rather than the slow play of the golfers in front of me or who are playing with me, or how well we are playing.

[Mac Plumart]

I didn't take it as a knock...I was just being a goof ball!!  My jokes never seem to come off right on this site...Hmmm...maybe I'm not funny?!?   

[Garland Bayley]

I didn't take it as a knock...I was just being a goof ball!!  My jokes never seem to come off right on this site...Hmmm...maybe I'm not funny?!?   

Oh, you're funny! Just not in the way you think!