Worst Ryder Cup Ever?

[Mac Plumart]

John (that is JNC)...

I here you.  You have every right to voice your opinion.  Others have their opinions and that is fine as well.  This is what makes the discussion group...actual discussion.  And I think we had a great one on this thread. 

Obviously, people like their golf in different flavors.  Cool!

I respect your style of golf and I am sure other do as well. 

But after all that rain and all that mud, the finish of the Ryder Cup was pretty sweet!!  What a year for Graeme McDowell. 

[JNC Lyon]

John (that is JNC)...

I here you.  You have every right to voice your opinion.  Others have their opinions and that is fine as well.  This is what makes the discussion group...actual discussion.  And I think we had a great one on this thread. 

Obviously, people like their golf in different flavors.  Cool!

I respect your style of golf and I am sure other do as well. 

But after all that rain and all that mud, the finish of the Ryder Cup was pretty sweet!!  What a year for Graeme McDowell. 

That all sounds reasonable.  I especially agree with your first point there.  I was trying to express my opinion here, but I was also trying to generate some active discussion.  That's the most valuable thing on this site: FRANK COMMENTARY where people agree and disagree with each other.  That's how you get to the root of the things, beyond the usual sound-bites and small talk of everyday life. 

Sometimes we get carried away and disagree too strongly.  But as long as it does not involve personal attacks, that's part of the fun!  I just hope I would be able to discuss these topics with you all over a beer sometime.

[Mac Plumart]

"I just hope I would be able to discuss these topics with you all over a beer sometime."




Let's do it!!!

[Rick Shefchik]

"I just hope I would be able to discuss these topics with you all over a beer sometime."




Let's do it!!!

Mac, where'd you get that picture of Miguel Angel Jimenez?

[Mac Plumart]

 

[Kenny Baer]

I don't know if this has been stated before but NBC was clueless  for about an hour saying that Mahon needed to win when the arithmetic was that a draw by him and one by Fowler would have worked. I thank the many gca threads on competitions for my picking that up. Finally, they got it and ,what do you know,  Fowler gets the half.


   I thought that McDowell was getable.  His swing is suspect and he started leaking oil on the back.

   Certainly this proved that we can't judge the contest until it is over. I began to watch it at 7 Eastern this morning and said I would turn it off when it was decided. That wasn't until McDowell's last putt.

OK, perhaps the title of this thread should be moved to "Worst Ryder Cup Telecast Ever?" and I would be able to concur with Mr. Lyon wholeheartedly. I went to the club to play yesterday, took a swing on the opening hole with my driver, felt a pain like a grenade went off in my right shoulder and promptly retired to the men's grill to watch the telecast. Was it me or did anyone else notice that NBC would show exactly 2 shots and then cut to a commercial. They did this upwards of 10 times in a row. Finally, I said to hell with it and went to take a shower. I came back and asked our Asst. Pro what I missed. His honest response? 2 approach shots and 4 putts.

How about "Best Ryder Cup to have had TIVO for?"  It wouldn't surprise me if the split between content and commercials was 50/50 -- even if you include the background stories as part of the content.  

I agree with you; NBC's coverage was at times poor and at others just atrocious; how can you miss Fowler and Molinari's tee shots on 18; how is that possible?

I thought the Ryder Cup was great overall; would have liked to have seen it on a better golf course and will never understand why it wasn't.

Someone said earlier that they thought McDowell would beat Mahan 7 or 8 times out of 10 in this situation or on this course, what basis do you have for that other than your "feeling".  McDowell was 3 under for the day and if made to putt out would have been 2; he was very beatable today, Mahan just didn't have it.

Pressure and how it affects one in golf is very tough to determine; how do you know if the pressure of a shot got to someone or they are just playing poorly.  I could only determine that Mahan was playing poorly minus the chip on 17, which really didn't make a difference as he had to hole it anyway.

Who cares about Lift, Clean, and Place, everyone does it and in my opinion it should be in the rules that if your ball is in the fairway you get to place it how you want; if you are in the fairway you deserve a perfect lie.  

Also this slow play is nonsense; I have played with several GCAers and never gotten around in less than 4 hrs while walking and I don't think anyone would ever accuse me of slow play.  Those rounds were by no means serious and we weren't grinding over every putt.  Walking and playing golf with more than 2 people takes longer than 4 hrs unless you are rushing; if you are grinding it takes closer to 5.

[JNC Lyon]

I don't know if this has been stated before but NBC was clueless  for about an hour saying that Mahon needed to win when the arithmetic was that a draw by him and one by Fowler would have worked. I thank the many gca threads on competitions for my picking that up. Finally, they got it and ,what do you know,  Fowler gets the half.


   I thought that McDowell was getable.  His swing is suspect and he started leaking oil on the back.

   Certainly this proved that we can't judge the contest until it is over. I began to watch it at 7 Eastern this morning and said I would turn it off when it was decided. That wasn't until McDowell's last putt.

OK, perhaps the title of this thread should be moved to "Worst Ryder Cup Telecast Ever?" and I would be able to concur with Mr. Lyon wholeheartedly. I went to the club to play yesterday, took a swing on the opening hole with my driver, felt a pain like a grenade went off in my right shoulder and promptly retired to the men's grill to watch the telecast. Was it me or did anyone else notice that NBC would show exactly 2 shots and then cut to a commercial. They did this upwards of 10 times in a row. Finally, I said to hell with it and went to take a shower. I came back and asked our Asst. Pro what I missed. His honest response? 2 approach shots and 4 putts.

How about "Best Ryder Cup to have had TIVO for?"  It wouldn't surprise me if the split between content and commercials was 50/50 -- even if you include the background stories as part of the content.  

I agree with you; NBC's coverage was at times poor and at others just atrocious; how can you miss Fowler and Molinari's tee shots on 18; how is that possible?

I thought the Ryder Cup was great overall; someone said earlier that they thought McDowell would beat Mahan 7 or 8 times out of 10 in this situation or on this course, what basis do you have for that other than your "feeling".  McDowell was 3 under for the day and if made to putt out would have been 2; he was very beatable today, Mahan just didn't have it.

Pressure and how it affects one in golf is very tough to determine; how do you know if the pressure of a shot got to someone or they are just playing poorly.  I could only determine that Mahan was playing poorly minus the chip on 17, which really didn't make a difference as he had to hole it anyway.

Who cares about Lift, Clean, and Place, everyone does it and in my opinion it should be in the rules that if your ball is in the fairway you get to place it how you want; if you are in the fairway you deserve a perfect lie.  

"Everyone does it."  That's a good reason to do something, right?  The statement is also false.

What if you hit it into a bunker in the middle of the fairway, are you entitled to a free drop?

You are not entitled to a perfect lie in golf.  That's part of the test of the game. I have made my points pretty clear on this, and I am not going to argue it further.

Also this slow play is nonsense; I have played with several GCAers and never gotten around in less than 4 hrs while walking and I don't think anyone would ever accuse me of slow play.  Those rounds were by no means serious and we weren't grinding over every putt.  Walking and playing golf with more than 2 people takes longer than 4 hrs unless you are rushing; if you are grinding it takes closer to 5.

[Dan King]

Richard Choi writes:
LCP is used in EVERY PGA tournament, why are you singling out the Ryder Cup?

The PGA Tour is about making professional golfers rich. The PGA of America, The USGA and the R&A should be about a lot more than making rich people richer. They should at least be partially about maintaining the essence of the game. Playing LC&C is not about golf, it is about making the players happy.

I would be perfectly fine if we had the 567th rant thread about LCP, but to imply that somehow the Ryder Cup is singular in this practice and somehow it lessened the enjoyment of the overall tournament was asinine to say the least.

I almost never watch the PGA Tour. It's too slow and the players are on automatic pilot. I was hoping to not see more of the same at the Ryder Cup, but was disappointed. I do not enjoy watching LC&C and would rather watch golf. Tell me what is asinine about preferring golf.

EVERYBODY on this board (including you, as you have stated) lift the ball regularly.

Everybody on this board does not regularly lift their golf ball between the tee and the hole.

If that is THE spirit of the game that binds us together, the sport of golf is in much bigger trouble than I thought.

Amen, brother. The game is in much more trouble than you originally thought.

Cheers,
Dan King

Almost every venerable tradition at a men's club starts out as a joke.
 --Joe Bob Briggs

[William_G]

Kenny

"Who cares about Lift, Clean, and Place, everyone does it and in my opinion it should be in the rules that if your ball is in the fairway you get to place it how you want; if you are in the fairway you deserve a perfect lie."

hahaha, LC+P sucks and ruins the game. There is nothing deserved in golf, or in life.

Granted LC+P has permeated competitive golf at all levels in the name "fairness", but I admire Augusta for not playing LC+P.

Furthermore, LC+P under "winter rules" does not help you get better at your game, IMHO.  

[Kenny Baer]

I don't know if this has been stated before but NBC was clueless  for about an hour saying that Mahon needed to win when the arithmetic was that a draw by him and one by Fowler would have worked. I thank the many gca threads on competitions for my picking that up. Finally, they got it and ,what do you know,  Fowler gets the half.


   I thought that McDowell was getable.  His swing is suspect and he started leaking oil on the back.

   Certainly this proved that we can't judge the contest until it is over. I began to watch it at 7 Eastern this morning and said I would turn it off when it was decided. That wasn't until McDowell's last putt.

OK, perhaps the title of this thread should be moved to "Worst Ryder Cup Telecast Ever?" and I would be able to concur with Mr. Lyon wholeheartedly. I went to the club to play yesterday, took a swing on the opening hole with my driver, felt a pain like a grenade went off in my right shoulder and promptly retired to the men's grill to watch the telecast. Was it me or did anyone else notice that NBC would show exactly 2 shots and then cut to a commercial. They did this upwards of 10 times in a row. Finally, I said to hell with it and went to take a shower. I came back and asked our Asst. Pro what I missed. His honest response? 2 approach shots and 4 putts.

How about "Best Ryder Cup to have had TIVO for?"  It wouldn't surprise me if the split between content and commercials was 50/50 -- even if you include the background stories as part of the content.  

I agree with you; NBC's coverage was at times poor and at others just atrocious; how can you miss Fowler and Molinari's tee shots on 18; how is that possible?

I thought the Ryder Cup was great overall; someone said earlier that they thought McDowell would beat Mahan 7 or 8 times out of 10 in this situation or on this course, what basis do you have for that other than your "feeling".  McDowell was 3 under for the day and if made to putt out would have been 2; he was very beatable today, Mahan just didn't have it.

Pressure and how it affects one in golf is very tough to determine; how do you know if the pressure of a shot got to someone or they are just playing poorly.  I could only determine that Mahan was playing poorly minus the chip on 17, which really didn't make a difference as he had to hole it anyway.

Who cares about Lift, Clean, and Place, everyone does it and in my opinion it should be in the rules that if your ball is in the fairway you get to place it how you want; if you are in the fairway you deserve a perfect lie.  

"Everyone does it."  That's a good reason to do something, right?  The statement is also false.

What if you hit it into a bunker in the middle of the fairway, are you entitled to a free drop?
If you hit it in a bunker then you are in a bunker regardless of location.

You are not entitled to a perfect lie in golf.  That's part of the test of the game. I have made my points pretty clear on this, and I am not going to argue it further.

Also this slow play is nonsense; I have played with several GCAers and never gotten around in less than 4 hrs while walking and I don't think anyone would ever accuse me of slow play.  Those rounds were by no means serious and we weren't grinding over every putt.  Walking and playing golf with more than 2 people takes longer than 4 hrs unless you are rushing; if you are grinding it takes closer to 5.

[Kenny Baer]

JNC,

If you hit it in the fairway you are by the architects intent meant to have an advantage and a clean lie; I am not an archie but never heard one who designed for poor lies in the fairway minus an uneven stance. I can see how it does change the arch intent if you are allowed to move the ball up to a club length; should be changed so that you can only move it a matter of inches.

Your argument if you hit it in a bunker in the middle of the fairway is a poor one at best; if you hit it in a bunker you are in a bunker regardless of where the bunker is located.

[Dan King]

Kenny Baer writes:
Walking and playing golf with more than 2 people takes longer than 4 hrs unless you are rushing; if you are grinding it takes closer to 5.

Why? Why does grinding take so much longer than non grinding?

Also these guys are doing what they are doing to entertain us. Is anyone entertained watching some golfer grind?

Who cares about Lift, Clean, and Place, everyone does it and in my opinion it should be in the rules that if your ball is in the fairway you get to place it how you want; if you are in the fairway you deserve a perfect lie.  

Anybody here know how to embroider? I'd love to get this on a pillow or something.

Why not use a tee?

Cheers,
Dan King

I wrote to Mr. McEnroe, Senior. I said: "Here is the sentence once written by the immortal Bobby Jones. I thought you might like to have it done in needlepoint and mounted in a suitable frame to hang over Little John's bed." It says, "The rewards of golf -- and of life, too, I expect -- are worth very little if you don't play the game by the etiquette as well as by the rules." I never heard from Mr. McEnroe, Senior. I can only conclude that the letter went astray.
 --Alister Cooke

[JNC Lyon]

JNC,

If you hit it in the fairway you are by the architects intent meant to have an advantage and a clean lie; I am not an archie but never heard one who designed for poor lies in the fairway minus an uneven stance. I can see how it does change the arch intent if you are allowed to move the ball up to a club length; should be changed so that you can only move it a matter of inches.

Your argument if you hit it in a bunker in the middle of the fairway is a poor one at best; if you hit it in a bunker you are in a bunker regardless of where the bunker is located.

Architect's intent?  I know that no Golden Age course was built under the maintenance ethic that no blade of grass will be out of place.  Fairways were not perfectly cut back in the day.  You could get a good lie, or you could get an indifferent one.  That's called Rub of the Green.  This principle still holds true on many links courses, including my club in the UK, Deal.

How far do we take your thesis that "if you are in the fairway you deserve a perfect lie"?  Does that mean everyone deserves a flat stance with a perfect look at the green?  From what you are saying, all links courses, and indeed, any great course in the world, is completely unfair.

[JESII]

During one of the old 36 hole final days of the US Open Ben Hogan hits a wedge into the green of a par 5. Reportedly, he then tells his caddy to be really careful with the divot because "we're coming back this way in the afternoon". Upon hearing of this from a group of reporters, Snead says "if he's that f***ing good why doesn't he just miss the divot".

Not sure if it applies, but Kenny's post about what a golfer deserves and architects intend reminded me of the story...

[David_Tepper]

"Someone said earlier that they thought McDowell would beat Mahan 7 or 8 times out of 10 in this situation or on this course, what basis do you have for that other than your "feeling"."

Kenny Baer -

One reason I would expect McDowell to beat Mahan on this course (or at least have a big advantage over him) is that this course (and its predecessor) has been a regular stop on the Euro Tour. He has likely played this course 4-6 times a year for the past 6-8 years. He won the Euro Tour event played there early this season. Wouldn't you think that gives him a big advantage over Mahan?

You could say the same for almost the entire Euro Team vs. the Americans. Collectively, the Euro Team probably has played 300-500 rounds of golf at Celtic Manor over the past 6-8 years. The U.S. Team probably had not played the course at all prior to arriving there last week.

DT  

[Kenny Baer]

Kenny Baer writes:
Walking and playing golf with more than 2 people takes longer than 4 hrs unless you are rushing; if you are grinding it takes closer to 5.

Why? Why does grinding take so much longer than non grinding?
Do you play golf?  Does this really need to be explained?

Also these guys are doing what they are doing to entertain us. Is anyone entertained watching some golf grind?
Don't really understand the correlation; they are playing to the best of their abilities as they are the best in the world, I would guess that is what entertains us, making sure they make 2 footers to make there score as best as possible is part of that.  Don't really see the relation between grinding and entertainment.

Who cares about Lift, Clean, and Place, everyone does it and in my opinion it should be in the rules that if your ball is in the fairway you get to place it how you want; if you are in the fairway you deserve a perfect lie.  

Anybody here know how to embroider? I'd love to get this on a pillow or something.

Why not use a tee?
Quite a leap you take there.  I believe that things can be improved; because the rule is the rule doesn't mean it is correct and/or can not be improved upon.

Cheers,
Dan King

I wrote to Mr. McEnroe, Senior. I said: "Here is the sentence once written by the immortal Bobby Jones. I thought you might like to have it done in needlepoint and mounted in a suitable frame to hang over Little John's bed." It says, "The rewards of golf -- and of life, too, I expect -- are worth very little if you don't play the game by the etiquette as well as by the rules." I never heard from Mr. McEnroe, Senior. I can only conclude that the letter went astray.
 --Alister Cooke

[JNC Lyon]

Kenny Baer writes:
Walking and playing golf with more than 2 people takes longer than 4 hrs unless you are rushing; if you are grinding it takes closer to 5.

Why? Why does grinding take so much longer than non grinding?
Do you play golf?  Does this really need to be explained?
The implication of your original statement is that the slower you are playing, the harder you are trying.  That simply is not true, and I would submit that it is an insult to good players who play fast.

Also these guys are doing what they are doing to entertain us. Is anyone entertained watching some golf grind?
Don't really understand the correlation; they are playing to the best of their abilities as they are the best in the world, I would guess that is what entertains us, making sure they make 2 footers to make there score as best as possible is part of that.  Don't really see the relation between grinding and entertainment.

Who cares about Lift, Clean, and Place, everyone does it and in my opinion it should be in the rules that if your ball is in the fairway you get to place it how you want; if you are in the fairway you deserve a perfect lie.  

Anybody here know how to embroider? I'd love to get this on a pillow or something.

Why not use a tee?
Quite a leap you take there.  I believe that things can be improved; because the rule is the rule doesn't mean it is correct and/or can not be improved upon.

Cheers,
Dan King

I wrote to Mr. McEnroe, Senior. I said: "Here is the sentence once written by the immortal Bobby Jones. I thought you might like to have it done in needlepoint and mounted in a suitable frame to hang over Little John's bed." It says, "The rewards of golf -- and of life, too, I expect -- are worth very little if you don't play the game by the etiquette as well as by the rules." I never heard from Mr. McEnroe, Senior. I can only conclude that the letter went astray.
 --Alister Cooke

[Peter Pallotta]

Ha, Jim, wonderful.  I imagine Hogan answering back "Because the best spot to hit the approach from is that divot".  And he would've meant it. Now, THOSE days are certainly gone, whatever else remains.

Peter  

[Kenny Baer]

Kenny Baer writes:
Walking and playing golf with more than 2 people takes longer than 4 hrs unless you are rushing; if you are grinding it takes closer to 5.

Why? Why does grinding take so much longer than non grinding?
Do you play golf?  Does this really need to be explained?
The implication of your original statement is that the slower you are playing, the harder you are trying.  That simply is not true, and I would submit that it is an insult to good players who play fast.
That was not what I was implying, one can certainly play fast and try their hardest.  Some play faster than others, but regardless of how fast you play it takes you longer when you have make sure you make every putt.


Also these guys are doing what they are doing to entertain us. Is anyone entertained watching some golf grind?
Don't really understand the correlation; they are playing to the best of their abilities as they are the best in the world, I would guess that is what entertains us, making sure they make 2 footers to make there score as best as possible is part of that.  Don't really see the relation between grinding and entertainment.

Who cares about Lift, Clean, and Place, everyone does it and in my opinion it should be in the rules that if your ball is in the fairway you get to place it how you want; if you are in the fairway you deserve a perfect lie.  

Anybody here know how to embroider? I'd love to get this on a pillow or something.

Why not use a tee?
Quite a leap you take there.  I believe that things can be improved; because the rule is the rule doesn't mean it is correct and/or can not be improved upon.

Cheers,
Dan King

I wrote to Mr. McEnroe, Senior. I said: "Here is the sentence once written by the immortal Bobby Jones. I thought you might like to have it done in needlepoint and mounted in a suitable frame to hang over Little John's bed." It says, "The rewards of golf -- and of life, too, I expect -- are worth very little if you don't play the game by the etiquette as well as by the rules." I never heard from Mr. McEnroe, Senior. I can only conclude that the letter went astray.
 --Alister Cooke

[Kenny Baer]

"Someone said earlier that they thought McDowell would beat Mahan 7 or 8 times out of 10 in this situation or on this course, what basis do you have for that other than your "feeling"."

Kenny Baer -

One reason I would expect McDowell to beat Mahan on this course (or at least have a big advantage over him) is that this course (and its predecessor) has been a regular stop on the Euro Tour. He has likely played this course 4-6 times a year for the past 6-8 years. He won the Euro Tour event played there early this season. Wouldn't you think that gives him a big advantage over Mahan?

You could say the same for almost the entire Euro Team vs. the Americans. Collectively, the Euro Team probably has played 300-500 rounds of golf at Celtic Manor over the past 6-8 years. The U.S. Team probably had not played the course at all prior to arriving there last week.

DT  

I believe it makes minimal difference; by the time of the Monday singles Mahan had played the course sufficently enough to score well.  If he was thrown out there for the first time then yes but course knowledge only helps so much, by the time of the Monday match he had sufficient enough.  Had he played well he could have beaten McDowell; I believe the 2 are evenly matched it just so happened McDowell played better this time.  Little of Mahan's play had to do with local knowledge and more to do with poor execution.

[Dan King]

Kenny Baer writes:
Do you play golf?

Now and then.

Does this really need to be explained?

Yes. Today Padraig Harrington spent around 60 seconds standing over a putt before he pulled the trigger. He made the putt. Instead I would have preferred he had spent 10 seconds over two putts. Was someone entertained by those 60 seconds? Were you?

If all golfers only had 20 seconds to make their shot, then the better grinders would be successful, the crappy grinders would need to find another profession. It would carry over from the tours to the local muni, since courses are so full of so many wantabes.  

Why do you support crappy grinders?

I didn't understand your answer to my question about why not use a tee when in the fairway.

Should fairways even be grass? There are so many better choices to ensure every lie in the fairway is perfect. Why in this day and age are we relying on such old fashion fairways?

Cheers,
Dan King

I don't know whether I prefer Astroturf to grass. I never smoked Astroturf.
 --Joe Namath

[John Moore II]

During one of the old 36 hole final days of the US Open Ben Hogan hits a wedge into the green of a par 5. Reportedly, he then tells his caddy to be really careful with the divot because "we're coming back this way in the afternoon". Upon hearing of this from a group of reporters, Snead says "if he's that f***ing good why doesn't he just miss the divot".

Not sure if it applies, but Kenny's post about what a golfer deserves and architects intend reminded me of the story...

Not to digress too much, but I suspect that story is more legend than truth; I have heard the exact same story about Ben and a divot, but the time was during a Master's practice round...


Dan King-for what its worth, in competition, golfers are only allowed 40 seconds to play a shot (from what I recall) IIRC, the times if you are 'on the clock' are 1 minute if first to play and 40 seconds if second or later.

[Peter Pallotta]

And I'm probably being unfair to the truly great Sam Snead, but maybe that's why he never won a US Open.  Hogan understood architecture and its demands better -- all important in that day; not so much anymore.

Peter

[Dan King]

John K. Moore writes:
Dan King-for what its worth, in competition, golfers are only allowed 40 seconds to play a shot (from what I recall) IIRC, the times if you are 'on the clock' are 1 minute if first to play and 40 seconds if second or later.

But this is only true if you are on the clock. If everyone plays at a snail's pace, nobody ever gets put on the clock. With Harrington today, he took what has become the typical amount of time to line up his putt, looking at it from every conceivable angle, practice putts, etc... Then he lined up for his putt and then stood motionless for 60 seconds.

I would make every single golfer play his shot in 20 seconds. You can take 40 seconds if you want, just add a penalty stroke to your score. You want to take 60 seconds, fine, add two.

Slow golfers are rude, and should not be rewarded for their rudeness.

Cheers,
Dan King

A true gentleman is one who is never unintentionally rude.
 --Oscar Wilde

[Kenny Baer]

Kenny Baer writes:
Do you play golf?

Now and then.

Does this really need to be explained?

Yes. Today Padraig Harrington spent around 60 seconds standing over a putt before he pulled the trigger. He made the putt. Instead I would have preferred he had spent 10 seconds over two putts. Was someone entertained by those 60 seconds? Were you?

If all golfers only had 20 seconds to make their shot, then the better grinders would be successful, the crappy grinders would need to find another profession. It would carry over from the tours to the local muni, since courses are so full of so many wantabes.  
I agree with you; but are you not in one sentence arguing for a change in rules to make the game better then in the very next sarcasticly stating that a change in rules is to dishonor the game.

Why do you support crappy grinders?

I didn't understand your answer to my question about why not use a tee when in the fairway.

Should fairways even be grass? There are so many better choices to ensure every lie in the fairway is perfect. Why in this day and age are we relying on such old fashion fairways?
A typical argument by someone who cannot legitimately defend their position; you are taking a very specific suggestion I made (I suggested you deserve a clean lie in the fairway and should be allowed to move your ball a mere inches) and exaggerating it 10fold, what if my response to your suggestion about requiring players to take 20 seconds for each shot and said we should make them sprint from shot to shot and if you don't finish in under 2.5 hrs then they should be banned from playing the next tournament  
Cheers,
Dan King

I don't know whether I prefer Astroturf to grass. I never smoked Astroturf.
 --Joe Namath