Step cuts, first cuts, second cuts, fringes, collars etc, etc...!?

[TEPaul]

Where and when did these things first begin in golf architecture?

Looking at some of the old photos of courses in the old days I don't really see them. Why did they begin? Well, that's not exactly a question because I do know some of the answers.

The first cut rough on most courses seems to be usually about a yard to three wide and I guess the original purpose of it was to turn mowers on when they began doing those cross cut mowing patterns. And I suppose the same was true with greens and green mowers.

But sometimes you see some creative uses for these things like how we use a vastly expanded one on the right side of our 10th fairway to slow balls down.

I thought of this and mention it because I heard a recommendation like that yesterday at a course for doing the same thing with a green collar but on the upside of a green and not on the downside fall-off of a green. Frankly, I've never heard of such a thing used that way and at first didn't really know what to make of it. On some consideration it may be brilliant and maybe it will start some kind of fad! 

The reason it was suggested is on this green with the slope up there in greenspace and at the speeds they run any ball that gets up there will just fire on back down and right across and off the green on the other side. This suggestion was to both slow the ball down and also to make the green smaller because it's impossible to pin anywhere near this present greenspace area (I call it a "kick-up") anyway.

[Tom_Doak]

Instead of changing the cut up there, they could just slow down the greens a bit and the problem would be solved ... And the maintenance budget would go down, too.

I hate the look of all those different intermediate cuts, but the real problem with them is $$$.  Every extra cut is another mower you've got to buy and another guy sitting on it.

[TEPaul]

"Instead of changing the cut up there, they could just slow down the greens a bit and the problem would be solved ... And the maintenance budget would go down, too."


TomD:

Funny you should say that. This idea was on the fifth hole. By the time we got to the eighth hole your suggestion was made!  

Frankly, it was good and a lot of fun out there yesterday. The chariman of this committee is a good guy and the dialogue was perfect. On the 2nd hole he told us all he was going to make an interesting personal proposal about something and so he did. After that he asked if there were any objections. Some may've thought his question was rhetorical but not me and so I told him I thought his proposal sucked nails.

He looked at me for about two seconds and said: "Ok, no problem, on to the next hole."

After it was all over we all went down to a Bonefish Grill and got four orders of BANG-BANG shrimp on a good deal and some Calamari and wine (and beer) and that was that------as it should be!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Where and when did these things first begin in golf architecture?

Looking at some of the old photos of courses in the old days I don't really see them. Why did they begin? Well, that's not exactly a question because I do know some of the answers.

The first cut rough on most courses seems to be usually about a yard to three wide and I guess the original purpose of it was to turn mowers on when they began doing those cross cut mowing patterns. And I suppose the same was true with greens and green mowers.
I disagree with that.
Many, if not most of the early gang mowers used for fairways did NOT have the ability to raise their reels, thus, the cut in the rough would be at the same height as the fairway, and you wouldn't have them creating a "first cut"

But sometimes you see some creative uses for these things like how we use a vastly expanded one on the right side of our 10th fairway to slow balls down.

I thought of this and mention it because I heard a recommendation like that yesterday at a course for doing the same thing with a green collar but on the upside of a green and not on the downside fall-off of a green. Frankly, I've never heard of such a thing used that way and at first didn't really know what to make of it. On some consideration it may be brilliant and maybe it will start some kind of fad! 

The reason it was suggested is on this green with the slope up there in greenspace and at the speeds they run any ball that gets up there will just fire on back down and right across and off the green on the other side. This suggestion was to both slow the ball down and also to make the green smaller because it's impossible to pin anywhere near this present greenspace area (I call it a "kick-up") anyway.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it was done in the name of fairness, or put another way, club members on green committees asking why should a ball, just 4 inches from the green or fairway should be penalized, equally, with a ball that's 4 feet or 4 yards from the green or fairway

[TEPaul]

"I disagree with that.
Many, if not most of the early gang mowers used for fairways did NOT have the ability to raise their reels, thus, the cut in the rough would be at the same height as the fairway, and you wouldn't have them creating a "first cut"




Patrick:

You disagree with a lot of things on here but that sure doesn't mean you're right. And when one takes into account the fact you're wrong 98% of the time that doesn't leave much, does it?

You could definitely raise the reels or blades on those old tractor drawn gang mowers. It wasn't easy but you could do it; generally with a big metal gear on the side of the mower. I've been mowing grass on farms all my life including some that were made in the 1930s. They don't teach kids in Jersey City who hang out with Little Tony Soprano stuff like that. 

Penn State at College Park actually has a great museum of old farm and golf equipment going back to near the turn of the century. You should do the research and go out and take a look at it some day.

Or you could get in touch with someone like Bradley Anderson on here.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"I disagree with that.
Many, if not most of the early gang mowers used for fairways did NOT have the ability to raise their reels, thus, the cut in the rough would be at the same height as the fairway, and you wouldn't have them creating a "first cut"

Patrick:

You disagree with a lot of things on here but that sure doesn't mean you're right. And when one takes into account the fact you're wrong 98% of the time that doesn't leave much, does it?

Not so fast my fiend, or is it friend.

You could definitely raise the reels or blades on those old tractor drawn gang mowers. It wasn't easy but you could do it; generally with a big metal gear on the side of the mower. I've been mowing grass on farms all my life including some that were made in the 1930s. They don't teach kids in Jersey City who hang out with Little Tony Soprano stuff like that. 

Ah, but, if you look at the mowing patterns on the fairways, they were straight back and forth.

There was NO NEED to raise the mower except at the turn by the tee and short of the green, so your theory on first cuts in the rough, is just like you were on Monday, ALL WET

Penn State at College Park actually has a great museum of old farm and golf equipment going back to near the turn of the century. You should do the research and go out and take a look at it some day.

Or you could get in touch with someone like Bradley Anderson on here.

I don't need to "reach out and touch" somebody, unless it's Megyn Kelly.

Big Gang mowers didn't cross cut in the early days.  they went straight up and down the fairway and NEVER turned except at the tee and green end, that's why you had those bows near the green.

So, your theory on first cuts in the rough is about as valid as your theory that Color TV, Pro Football and the internet would never become popular

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it was done in the name of fairness, or put another way, club members on green committees asking why should a ball, just 4 inches from the green or fairway should be penalized, equally, with a ball that's 4 feet or 4 yards from the green or fairway[/color]

From my understanding this is correct. It was more from complaints from having balls roll or bounce from closely mown fairways immediately into long rough being too tough. We won't discuss where the 'dew paths' from tees to fairways that tie into intermediate cuts came from.

[TEPaul]

"I disagree with that.
Many, if not most of the early gang mowers used for fairways did NOT have the ability to raise their reels, thus, the cut in the rough would be at the same height as the fairway, and you wouldn't have them creating a "first cut"


Pat:

If there was no way to raise the height of the blades and they cut the rough at the same height as the fairway then most all courses wouldn't have had rough would they? It would all basically be fairway height?

That doesn't make much sense my friend, or is it friend?  

Do you really think you can make statements on here that illogical and actually get away with it?  

"Hey, Hugh, George, Charlie, Bill, Herbert, Devie, Tilly, Alister and Harry, did you hear someone just invented a way to raise the blades on gang mowers? I never would've thought of something like that. That is thoroughly brilliant; who knows, maybe that guy can figure out how to get someone on the moon someday!"  

[Patrick_Mucci]

"I disagree with that.
Many, if not most of the early gang mowers used for fairways did NOT have the ability to raise their reels, thus, the cut in the rough would be at the same height as the fairway, and you wouldn't have them creating a "first cut"


Pat:

If there was no way to raise the height of the blades and they cut the rough at the same height as the fairway then most all courses wouldn't have had rough would they?

YES they would.  You just don't understand the process or the mechanics behind the old large gang mowers

The large GANG mowers had their reels set at fixed heights.
One gang of mowers mowed the rough and another mowed the fairways.
ANY Adjustments were made in the shop, NOT in the field.

The reels could be raised and lowered, but, the heights couldn't be changed in the field

It would all basically be fairway height?

NO, because the gang mowers used for fairways went up and down the fairways, tee to green and back to tee.
Seperate mowers mowed the rough.
In addition, the schedules for mowing rough and fairway were different.
Fairways were mowed more frequently

That doesn't make much sense my friend, or is it friend?  

Do you really think you can make statements on here that illogical and actually get away with it?  

The logic is irrefutable

"Hey, Hugh, George, Charlie, Bill, Herbert, Devie, Tilly, Alister and Harry, did you hear someone just invented a way to raise the blades on gang mowers? I never would've thought of something like that. That is thoroughly brilliant; who knows, maybe that guy can figure out how to get someone on the moon someday!"  

TE, the height of the blades could ONLY be changed IN THE SHOP, not in the field by the guy driving the gang mowers.

You should know that

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Do you see any inconsistency between what you just said in Post #8 and what you said earlier, which was:


"I disagree with that.
Many, if not most of the early gang mowers used for fairways did NOT have the ability to raise their reels, thus, the cut in the rough would be at the same height as the fairway, and you wouldn't have them creating a "first cut"



You said the cut in the rough would be at the SAME height as the fairway!!!  


Maybe the deal was back in the old days that even when grass got cut at the same height in the rough as in the fairway it somehow KNEW it was supposed to be rough and just made ITSELF play differently somehow.

Patrick, you are a TRIP---you really are! Vinnie IS YOUR cousin, isn't he?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

Do you see any inconsistency between what you just said in Post #8 and what you said earlier, NO

which was:

"I disagree with that.
Many, if not most of the early gang mowers used for fairways did NOT have the ability to raise their reels, thus, the cut in the rough would be at the same height as the fairway, and you wouldn't have them creating a "first cut"

You said the cut in the rough would be at the SAME height as the fairway!!!  

That's correct, since they couldn't raise or lower the reels in the field, if they were mowing the fairway and drove into the rough, it would become fairway height.

Maybe the deal was back in the old days that even when grass got cut at the same height in the rough as in the fairway it somehow KNEW it was supposed to be rough and just made ITSELF play differently somehow.

The concept is simple to follow.

Any adjustments to the reels had to be made back in the shop/maintainance barn, not in the field,
Hence, there were gang mowers specifically sent out to cut the rough and gang mowers specifically sent out to cut the fairway.

If the same mower was used to cut both, after that gang mower cut the fairway/rough that gang mower had to return to the shop/mainainance barn and the reels had to be raised or lowered in order to cut the rough/fairway 

Patrick, you are a TRIP---you really are! Vinnie IS YOUR cousin, isn't he?

Yes, he and Tony are my cousins

[TEPaul]

"That's correct, since they couldn't raise or lower the reels in the field, if they were mowing the fairway and drove into the rough, it would become fairway height."


Well the answer to that is they didn't drive from the fairways into the rough back then any more than crews today cut from the greens into the collars you royal numbscull. 

Matter of fact one of the interesting things Matt Shaeffer noticed on some old aerials of Merion West is the mow corridors between holes as the tractor drawn gangs were being hauled back to the shop. And so what if they raised the mowers in the shop to cut the rough? That's what they did in the barn in Long Island with the gangs when I was mowing fields when I was seven years old and you were selling bubble gum on the sidewalk to Tony Soprano. So what the hell do you know about those old gangs? Nice guess though, hilarious as it is?


If we want to know how that old equipment worked back then the best person to ask on here is Bradley Anderson; he's made a real study of old maintenance equipment and old maintenance practices.

[TEPaul]

Hey, Patrick, have you seen the play Jersey Boys yet? Do you know who one of the guys was who hung out in the old neighborhood with Frankie Vallee and the Four Seasons?

[Patrick_Mucci]

"That's correct, since they couldn't raise or lower the reels in the field, if they were mowing the fairway and drove into the rough, it would become fairway height."

Well the answer to that is they didn't drive from the fairways into the rough back then any more than crews today cut from the greens into the collars you royal numbscull. 

I NEVER said they did.

You said that and I explained how they mowed fairways and roughs with those big gang mowers.

Matter of fact one of the interesting things Matt Shaeffer noticed on some old aerials of Merion West is the mow corridors between holes as the tractor drawn gangs were being hauled back to the shop. And so what if they raised the mowers in the shop to cut the rough? That's what they did in the barn in Long Island with the gangs when I was mowing fields when I was seven years old and you were selling bubble gum on the sidewalk to Tony Soprano. So what the hell do you know about those old gangs? Nice guess though, hilarious as it is?

If we want to know how that old equipment worked back then the best person to ask on here is Bradley Anderson; he's made a real study of old maintenance equipment and old maintenance practices.

[Adam Clayman]

TePaul,
 Someone mentioned to me on my recent visit to NY that many courses in the general vicinity of Winged Foot, emulated them so much that whatever they were doing at Winged Foot, was how they do things. That includes the cuts you asked about.

If you have not been there recently, Gil has done a few green expansions. Specifically the 12th on the East is one worth looking closely at. Rather than having the typical 2 foot collar of surrounding rough grass, then an 18 inch collar cut, there's now less than 6 inches of what looks like a lower rough cut and then a small collar that has just a slightly higher cut than the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hey, Patrick, have you seen the play Jersey Boys yet?

I took my office staff to dinner then to see Jersey Boys about two years ago.

Do you know who one of the guys was who hung out in the old neighborhood with Frankie Vallee and the Four Seasons?
Joe, Pesci.

Joe was also a comedian and a fellow I know, who's a doctor, was a big fan and used to go to the shore to watch him perform.
They got friendly, and Joe Pesci put him in all of the "Mob" movies.
The Godfather, Goodfellows, Casino, etc, etc.  He even got a role in The Soprano's"

You'll never get a role in a Scorsese movie if you can't get a weekend furlough from Happydale Farms