Not to bring up a sore subject, but,

[TEPaul]

" Like most everyone else TEPaul had been claiming that the NGLA meetings were about planning Wilson's trip abroad, as if CBM was some sort of glorified travel agent."

David Moriarty:

I never said any NGLA meeting was about planning Wilson's trip abroad even though you may've said I said that and then accused me of it. All I ever said about the NGLA meeting is what Wilson said about it in the chapter he wrote for Piper and Oakley in 1916. After that we found the MCC meeting minutes and the so-called Wilson Report to the April 19, 1911 board meeting that goes into the NGLA meeting in detail; material I might add you never even knew existed until we found it at MCC. And after that you and MacWood accused me of altering it or some other of the garbage you two engage in constantly on this website on this subject.

[TEPaul]

Actually, from your essay you didn't even know when that NGLA meeting took place; you just speculated when it did as anyone can see from reading your essay. And your speculation missed the date by about two months! I'm the one who had to explain to you on here when it actually happened when I first got those MCC meeting minutes. You keep saying they discuss the layout plan of Merion and yet there is absolutely nothing that factuallly supports that. Are you ever going to understand that and if not then why not?

It's always about you denying any responsibility for the numerous mistakes you made, isn't it? You constantly rationalize everything away or deny it or avoid it.

You were always worried about your reputation, weren't you? Too bad you've continued to do what you have to destroy it. You're even incapable of taking any responsibillty for that. I dont' know whether what you do on this website should be considered shocking or humorous or perhaps something of both. But I do know you have no credibility left and that is something I actually hoped would happen to you with the way you act on this websiite.

[JESII]

"There were unusual and interesting features connected with the beginnings of these two courses which should not be forgotten. First of all, they were both “Homemade”. When it was known that we must give up the old course, a “Special Committee on New Golf Grounds”—composed of the late Frederick L. Baily. S.T. Bodine, E.C. Felton, H.G. Lloyd, and Robert Lesley, Chairman, chose the site; and a “Special Committee” DESIGNED and BUILT the two courses without the help of a golf architect. Those two good and kindly sportsmen, Charles B. MacDonald and H.J. Whigam, the men who conceived the idea of and designed the National Links at Southampton, both ex-amateur champions and the latter a Scot who had learned his golf at Prestwick—twice came to Haverford, first to go over the ground and later to consider and advise about OUR plans. They also had our committee as their guests at the National and their advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of Merion East were of the greatest help and value. Except for this, the entire responsibility for the DESIGN and CONSTRUCTION of the two courses rests upon the special Construction Committee, composed of R.S. Francis, R.E. Griscom, H.G. Lloyd. Dr. Harry Toulmin, and the late Hugh I. Wilson, Chairman."




Tom,

Why else would Allen Wilson include the advice and suggestions as to Merion East in the same sentence as the visit to NGLA if that didn't happen?

[TEPaul]

Sully:

On reason might be Alan Wilson wrote what you quoted fifteen years after the fact and the other reason might be because Alan Wilson was never on that committee. If he had been he probably wouldn't have bothered to interview all the committee members left from the committee when he wrote what you quoted in 1926.

It also looks like you forgot to quote what Alan Wilson wrote in that report about who the remaining committee mambers said was in the main responsible for the architecture of the East and West courses.

If one wants to know what the Wilson Committee did during those two days at NGLA I would say the best source of information for it would be the report from Hugh Wilson, the chairman of the committee that went to NGLA, that was given by Lesley at the April 19, 1911 board meeting a mere 5-6 weeks after the meeting of NGLA.

[Patrick_Mucci]

So, my question remains.

Of these gentlemen, which ones had been to the UK and played/studied the golf courses there prior to March of 1911 ?

R.S. Francis, ?
R.E. Griscom, ?
H.G. Lloyd. ?
Dr. Harry Toulmin ?

We know that the CHAIRMAN hadn't.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

I don't have an Ancestry.Com account any longer, but back when I did I know Griscom, Lloyd, and Robert Lesley from the club travelled regularly to Europe during the period 1900-1912 with regular stops in England, Scotland, and France.   If memory serves, I found travel records for Toulmin as well.   There were so many people named Richard Francis it's difficult to tell.

I find it difficult to believe they didn't bring their clubs.

Perhaps Tom MacWood can get back in on that site and tell us?

[JESII]

Sully:

On reason might be Alan Wilson wrote what you quoted fifteen years after the fact and the other reason might be because Alan Wilson was never on that committee. If he had been he probably wouldn't have bothered to interview all the committee members left from the committee when he wrote what you quoted in 1926.

It also looks like you forgot to quote what Alan Wilson wrote in that report about who the remaining committee mambers said was in the main responsible for the architecture of the East and West courses.

If one wants to know what the Wilson Committee did during those two days at NGLA I would say the best source of information for it would be the report from Hugh Wilson, the chairman of the committee that went to NGLA, that was given by Lesley at the April 19, 1911 board meeting a mere 5-6 weeks after the meeting of NGLA.

Tom,

I didn't forget anything...I do think you must admit it is highly unlikely that discussing the plans for Merion's new course was anywhere but at the top of the agenda during those couple of days in Southampton.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sully,

That was the sole purpose of the "committee's" trip to Southampton.

Mike Cirba,

With sailing time of about 5+ days each way, I don't think anyone traveled to Europe "regularly".

And, if they did, I'm not so sure they were on golfing vacations.

Let's not guess on this issue because guessing isn't going to be objective.

Let's try to ascertain IF and when they might have traveled to the UK and for how long.

Obviously, you want them to be in the UK studying golf courses every other weekend

But, had they done that, there would be no need to visit with CBM, would there ?

[TEPaul]

No Sully, that is definitely not something I must admit or do admit.

From everything I can see from the records of MCC back then what is more likely to me is that MCC or Wilson or his committee never even asked Macdonald or Whigam to actually get involved in routing and designing Merion East. There seems to be something pretty intuitive to me that appears to be reflected in everything that was ever said or recorded that MCC asked CBM and Whigam to only do what they actually recorded that they asked him to do;

To wit:

1. Come down to Ardmore once in June of 1910 to tell them what he thought of the land they were considering buying.
2. Go to NGLA for two days to have him show them what he brought back from abroad and the course he had built and to discuss grass.
3. Have him come for a day to review the plans for the course they had developed for themselves.

My sense is that people like those from Merion back then would not have even presumed to actually ask CBM to design a course for them but if they had done that they were the type of people who would have been the very first to admit it back then but they didn't do that.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

As far as some on that committee going abroad regularly are you even aware of what some of them did for a living and how that alone may've had a strong influence on whether or not they were abroad regularly? Do you know what Lloyd did for a living? Do you know what Griscom's father did for a living? If you don't know I would be more than happy to tell you? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

No Sully, that is definitely not something I must admit or do admit.

From everything I can see from the records of MCC back then what is more likely to me is that MCC or Wilson or his committee never even asked Macdonald or Whigam to actually get involved in routing and designing Merion East.  

And there's nothing in the records to say that they didn't ask M&W to get involved in routing, hole and feature design at Merion.

There seems to be something pretty intuitive to me that appears to be reflected in everything that was ever said or recorded that MCC asked CBM and Whigam to only do what they actually recorded that they asked him to do;

Then what do you attribute the committee's request to have the entire committee schlep up to Southampton to spend two days with CBM at NGLA.  What was the purpose of that trip, to talk to CBM about his plans for Lido ?  The exchange rates in Europe ?
And, why journey all the way to Southampton to tour NGLA if CBM had shown a willingness to go down and visit Merion's site ?
What would be gained from meeting at NGLA if the architecture at NGLA wasn't a focal point of the trip ?

To wit:

1. Come down to Ardmore once in June of 1910 to tell them what he thought of the land they were considering buying.
2. Go to NGLA for two days to have him show them what he brought back from abroad and the course he had built and to discuss grass.

That's it !  No discussion about Merion, just discussions limited to NGLA ? 
WOW,  wouldn't that constitute malfeasance in office, a shirking of their committee responsibilities ?

Let me try to put this in a modern day context.
Ran, myself and  3 others on our committee are going to build a golf course called "Dunebery," on the shore of Long Island.
So we arrange for a meeting at Pacific Dunes with Tom Doak.
We travel out to Oregon to see him.
Are you telling us that we're not going to try to pick his brain and discuss our new course at Duneberry ?
That we're not going to ask him for site specific advise ?
That we're going to confine our discussions to Pac Dunes ?
You'd have to be a committee of idiots NOT to take advantage of a golden opportunity like that, and the guys on Wilson's committee were far from being idiots, especially when you consider that CBM was a bold ground breaker in this field

3. Have him come for a day to review the plans for the course they had developed for themselves.

My sense is that people like those from Merion back then would not have even presumed to actually ask CBM to design a course for them but if they had done that they were the type of people who would have been the very first to admit it back then but they didn't do that.

TEPaul, you're trying to create a fire wall which seperates CBM from anything connected to the design of Merion.

You can't really believe that the ENTIRE committee travled all the way to Southampton, in 1911, just to shoot the breeze with CBM about golf in general, AVOIDING any mention or discussion about Merion, it's land, hole designs, features, etc., etc..

That's a stretch beyond one's wildest imagination and wishful thinking at best.

They visited Southampton for the EXPRESS purpose of discussing golf course architecture, in the UK, at NGLA and as it might apply at Merion.  To think otherwise is to be in blind denial

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

As far as some on that committee going abroad regularly are you even aware of what some of them did for a living and how that alone may've had a strong influence on whether or not they were abroad regularly? Do you know what Lloyd did for a living? Do you know what Griscom's father did for a living? If you don't know I would be more than happy to tell you? 

TEPaul,

The ONLY thing that's relevant is whether or not they traveled to the UK and if in their travels they visited, played and STUDIED the courses of the UK.  And if so, which courses ?  And, for how long ?

I'm trying to establish their level of familiarity or expertise as of March 1911, and nothing more

Everything else is just backround noise and not relevant to the issue at hand.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Unfortunately, the records of Merion or MCC do not get into the personal and recreational worlds and activities of their members outside of club activities as much as some of us wish they might have.

But I can tell you that certainly Griscom and Lloyd were abroad often and regularly for various reasons. What I don't know is what kind of golfer Lloyd was but Griscom sure was good as he was a Philadelphia Amateur champion among other things. Obviously he came from a golfing family in his generation as his sister won the US Amateur in 1900 at Shinnecock and of course his father had the second nine of the original MCC Haverford course on his substantial estate, Dolobran. Griscom's brother was the ambassador to Italy around this time and his father Clement was the chairman of the so-called "Shipping Trust" or formally known as International Mercantile Marine. That entity that was financed particularly by Morgan (who Lloyd became a partner of in 1912 after transitioning over from Drexel Co) had over a million tons at sea including freight and some luxury lines that included The White Star Line that owned the Titanic among others.

So, if those two at least did not play abroad and were not familiar with the courses over there it sure would be pretty odd.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

Back some years ago on that gigantic thread I did list a chronicle of every time those men were abroad, and their ports of call. 

I'll see if I can't find it this weekend.

Of course, I don't have their itineraries but if rodman griscom landed in glasgow I'm going to make some assumptions. 

As far as studying, it depends.  I've only played the alps and redan and road hole one time at ngla (and each of the originals once for that matter)but they still exist in my mind pretty vividly!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Back some years ago on that gigantic thread I did list a chronicle of every time those men were abroad, and their ports of call. 

I'll see if I can't find it this weekend.
That would be most helpful.

Of course, I don't have their itineraries but if rodman griscom landed in glasgow I'm going to make some assumptions. 

I didn't doubt that you would

As far as studying, it depends.  I've only played the alps and redan and road hole one time at ngla (and each of the originals once for that matter)but they still exist in my mind pretty vividly!

Do they exist in your mind to the degree that you could build them successfully ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

Unfortunately, the records of Merion or MCC do not get into the personal and recreational worlds and activities of their members outside of club activities as much as some of us wish they might have.

TEPaul,

Even contemporaneous accounts don't provide the detail we seek.
Lowell Schulman's "Miracle on Breeze Hill" and Brad Klein's "Building Sebonack" as extensive as they are, don't provide the kind of detail we're seeking...... we're looking for information from a century ago, so I know this is a difficult task.

I think you try to assemble as many facts as you can and then draw prudent man conclusions.

But I can tell you that certainly Griscom and Lloyd were abroad often and regularly for various reasons. What I don't know is what kind of golfer Lloyd was but Griscom sure was good as he was a Philadelphia Amateur champion among other things. Obviously he came from a golfing family in his generation as his sister won the US Amateur in 1900 at Shinnecock and of course his father had the second nine of the original MCC Haverford course on his substantial estate, Dolobran. Griscom's brother was the ambassador to Italy around this time and his father Clement was the chairman of the so-called "Shipping Trust" or formally known as International Mercantile Marine. That entity that was financed particularly by Morgan (who Lloyd became a partner of in 1912 after transitioning over from Drexel Co) had over a million tons at sea including freight and some luxury lines that included The White Star Line that owned the Titanic among others.

That's certainly interesting information, but, I'd be interested in Griscom's and Lloyd's travel itineraries prior to March of 1911.

Do we know if Francis or the Doc traveled to the UK prior to March of 1911 ? 

So, if those two at least did not play abroad and were not familiar with the courses over there it sure would be pretty odd.

[TEPaul]

"That's certainly interesting information, but, I'd be interested in Griscom's and Lloyd's travel itineraries prior to March of 1911."

So would I but again that is just not part of MCC's and Merion's archives and records. However, there are other sources and eventually I may get around to them. It would not be in the slightest surprising with men of the business and social import of the likes of Griscom and Lloyd to run across personal records usually reposited in a university.

For instance, it occured to me the other day that there is really nowhere near as much information on the costs and details of Merion East and West, particularly after MCCGA Corp took control of it as one might expect. Then I started thinking that it really was a separate entity with a board of directors, a president and stock certification. It was a formal Pennsylvania Corporation. So I began wondering if perhaps all its records and meeting minutes never were reposited at MCC or Merion GC. Perhaps they are all part of the records of Lloyd's estate (he was the creator, organizer and president of it). My first thought was those records may be at Drexel University because after all in 1910 he was a partner of Drexel Co and that is actually to whom and where CBM wrote that letter about his visit to Ardmore in June 1910. He did not write it to MCC and their Search Committee, he actually wrote it to Lloyd c/o Drexel Co. To me that might indicate that much of what was spoken about down there in June had as much to do with the business angle of all of this even including a residential component since we do know CBM had even mentioned THAT early on for NGLA!

So that is where I will look next and it would not surprise me at all if I find a copy of that all important topographical contour map Wilson and Committee were using to route and design the course in the winter and spring of 1911, perhaps in the County Seat of Delaware Co.

If I find that thing, and it has a scale on it then that approximate road road would be measurable at any point and we would actually be looking at what Wilson and Committee and particularly Richard Francis was looking at and working with when he solved the problem he referred to on the last five holes!

Some on here seem to think that approximate road on the November 15, 1910 land plan wasn't that relevent or that they could "shrink wrap" it into the course somehow but if that road is measurable on the actual contour survey map they were actually using to route and design the course, then we would know that they knew they could not go to the west of it without asking for a land swap and getting it. And then of course all we would need to do is overlay that road on their contour survey map on top of what was actually built, and then we would have our answer once and for all about this Francis fix thing and when it could at least not have happened BEFORE! 









"Do we know if Francis or the Doc traveled to the UK prior to March of 1911?"  


I do not know that at all other than Toulmin was a pretty good player as was Francis who was also a Rules expert as were Hugh and Alan.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"That's certainly interesting information, but, I'd be interested in Griscom's and Lloyd's travel itineraries prior to March of 1911."

So would I but again that is just not part of MCC's and Merion's archives and records. However, there are other sources and eventually I may get around to them. It would not be in the slightest surprising with men of the business and social import of the likes of Griscom and Lloyd to run across personal records usually reposited in a university.

Given their position/status in the community, I would imagine that other sources might reveal more about their lives and interest in golf.

For instance, it occured to me the other day that there is really nowhere near as much information on the costs and details of Merion East and West, particularly after MCCGA Corp took control of it as one might expect. Then I started thinking that it really was a separate entity with a board of directors, a president and stock certification. It was a formal Pennsylvania Corporation. So I began wondering if perhaps all its records and meeting minutes never were reposited at MCC or Merion GC. Perhaps they are all part of the records of Lloyd's estate (he was the creator, organizer and president of it). My first thought was those records may be at Drexel University because after all in 1910 he was a partner of Drexel Co and that is actually to whom and where CBM wrote that letter about his visit to Ardmore in June 1910. He did not write it to MCC and their Search Committee, he actually wrote it to Lloyd c/o Drexel Co. To me that might indicate that much of what was spoken about down there in June had as much to do with the business angle of all of this even including a residential component since we do know CBM had even mentioned THAT early on for NGLA!

So that is where I will look next and it would not surprise me at all if I find a copy of that all important topographical contour map Wilson and Committee were using to route and design the course in the winter and spring of 1911, perhaps in the County Seat of Delaware Co.

If I find that thing, and it has a scale on it then that approximate road road would be measurable at any point and we would actually be looking at what Wilson and Committee and particularly Richard Francis was looking at and working with when he solved the problem he referred to on the last five holes!

What really interests me is the following.
Francis was part of the committee.
Francis accompanied Wilson on the March 1911 visit.
By March 1911, Raynor was an integral part of CBM's "team".
Why is there no mention of Raynor at that meeting ?
Wouldn't Francis seek out Raynor ?
Wouldn't he grill him and absorb everything about the design and construction of a golf course ?
Why is there no evidence of any communication between Francis and Raynor ?
Written or with on site visits

Some on here seem to think that approximate road on the November 15, 1910 land plan wasn't that relevent or that they could "shrink wrap" it into the course somehow but if that road is measurable on the actual contour survey map they were actually using to route and design the course, then we would know that they knew they could not go to the west of it without asking for a land swap and getting it. And then of course all we would need to do is overlay that road on their contour survey map on top of what was actually built, and then we would have our answer once and for all about this Francis fix thing and when it could at least not have happened BEFORE! 









"Do we know if Francis or the Doc traveled to the UK prior to March of 1911?"  


I do not know that at all other than Toulmin was a pretty good player as was Francis who was also a Rules expert as were Hugh and Alan.

[TEPaul]

"Given their position/status in the community, I would imagine that other sources might reveal more about their lives and interest in golf."


Like what? If you believe it why don't you give it a shot in researching it?

[TEPaul]

"What really interests me is the following.
Francis was part of the committee.
Francis accompanied Wilson on the March 1911 visit.
By March 1911, Raynor was an integral part of CBM's "team".
Why is there no mention of Raynor at that meeting ?
Wouldn't Francis seek out Raynor ?
Wouldn't he grill him and absorb everything about the design and construction of a golf course ?
Why is there no evidence of any communication between Francis and Raynor ?
Written or with on site visits"


Well, Patrick, what we really do know right now is that there just is no mention of Raynor at that meeting and there apparently never was.

I'll give you one guess why that may've been. No, belay that, knowing you, I'll give you two guesses. Oh Hell, take three guesses and even then you still probably won't even be warm.

So, I'll ask you one very simple question that may help you out----WHAT is the ONE commonality of all those who were apparently at that meeting or were mentioned as being a part of it?

How're you doing Patrick? Do you think you're getting warmer yet? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

"What really interests me is the following.
Francis was part of the committee.
Francis accompanied Wilson on the March 1911 visit.
By March 1911, Raynor was an integral part of CBM's "team".
Why is there no mention of Raynor at that meeting ?
Wouldn't Francis seek out Raynor ?
Wouldn't he grill him and absorb everything about the design and construction of a golf course ?
Why is there no evidence of any communication between Francis and Raynor ?
Written or with on site visits"


Well, Patrick, what we really do know right now is that there just is no mention of Raynor at that meeting and there apparently never was.

And that doesn't strike you as strange ?

I'll give you one guess why that may've been. No, belay that, knowing you, I'll give you two guesses. Oh Hell, take three guesses and even then you still probably won't even be warm.

Chances are that he was out of town at the time of the meeting
Probably down on Ardmore Ave, surveying and laying out the golf course

So, I'll ask you one very simple question that may help you out----WHAT is the ONE commonality of all those who were apparently at that meeting or were mentioned as being a part of it?


What makes you think there's just one commonality ?

How're you doing Patrick? Do you think you're getting warmer yet? 

[Mike Cirba]

Pat,

They all exist in my mind sufficiently that I could build them successfully...over the course of a few tries in a year or so.  

In fact, I'm going back Thursday to refresh my memory.  

Tom Paul,

You are underestimating the silent partner of the Merion Committee, Dr. Harry Toulmin.

Dr. Toulmin was a superb baseball player, and was the Captain of the U of Penn Baseball team which was essentially a "managerial" position back when Ivy League baseball meant something.

He was one of the top golfers at Belmont, the forerunner to Aronimink, and along with Harrison Townsend designed their nine-hole course in 1897.   Boy Wunderkind Hugh Wilson held the course record and the lowest handicap by 8 shots when he was only 18 years old at Belmont.

In 1910, when the Merion committee was formed, Dr. Toulmin was one of the five lowest six handicaps out of the 300+ golf members in the Merion club.

The other five lowest handicaps...

Hugh Wilson
Rodman Griscom
HG Lloyd
Richard Francis


and newcomer, Howard Perrin, who only joined the club in 1909.

These "experts" were assigned to a Committee you might recognize.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Which of those men played on the Lesley Cup team or competed in the US Amateur? In the greater scheme of things are we supposed to be impressed with their playing ability? Would they have been impressed with any of these men in NY, Chicago or Boston? I'm sure they were good players, but come on don't try to make them into something they weren't.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

You see no significance or meaning in the fact that five of lowest six handicaps of the 300+ golf members of Merion were chosen to design their new course?

You see no significance in the fact that Hugh Wilson was the low handicapper at the club that became Belmont at age 18 in 1897, or became Captain of Princeton Golf team at time when the Ivy League schools would play against the best Easter clubs like Garden City, and don't see any significance in the fact that Hugh Wilson was named to the Princeton Green Committee at a tmie when they were building a new Willie Dunn golf course that was revised by the pro Mr. Swan..

Your furthermore so see no significance i the fact that Hugh Wilson in the mid-00s played golf for Philadelphia against teams that included CB Macdonald and Dev Emmett, or that he was called an "expert" in NY Times articles because he had one of the lowest handicaps out of thousands of golfers in the Metropolitan District?

You see no signifcance in the fact that every local paper in the Philadelphia region, as well as every national publication talking about golf credited him and his committee of low-handicap experts with both the design and construction of the Merion East course, to be immediately followed by assignment to design the Merion West course, the Seaview course that Clarence Geist was buidling, revisions to Philmont with Herman Strouse, a new 18 hole course at North Hills with Ab Smith and Frank Meehan, assignment to head the team building Cobb's Creek, and so on?

Because why?   Because by 1910 as the father of a 5 year old and a 2 year old he was not one of the very top golfers in the country?

Huh??

[Tom MacWood]

Its not a difficult question: Which of those men ever played on the Lesley Cup team or competed in the US Amateur?