[Mike Nuzzo]

p.s.
I'd get rid of the range.
It looks like there will be a ton of balls on #1 and it would give you more room for 1, 2 & 4.
Cheers

[Lester George]

Maybe I missed it, What is the contour interval?

Lester

[Ben Stephens]

Maybe I missed it, What is the contour interval?

Lester

Lester,

The contour intervals are a metre or 3.28ft.

Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

Thanks Ben
Yes I am wild off the tee.
But, on 11 I was referring to a straight shot of 190 yards.
I can't reach the green on my 2nd, so where do I hit it?
It looks like the fairways are 15 yards wide on either side of the creek.
I'll have to aim at 12 green or hit my putter to stay safe. 

I do like smaller bunkers and get your point about drawing for show.
100 bunkers is still a lot to manage - cutting the grass around them counts as maintenance too.

Kelly and his client have posted some routing plans on GCA previously.
http://www.kellyblakemoran.com/

Mike - or they chip further down the fairway to have a 100 yard shot into the green   

The 12th green is raised and I have used the 15 deg rule off the centre line and the 12th green is way outside the danger territory. There is a lot more space in reality than whats on the plan. There are loads of courses in UK than are very tight in between holes - this is very wide in comparision.

Realistically we would start off with 30 - 40 bunkers, as I said earlier, and add a few more as time goes by.

Cheers
ben

[Ben Stephens]

p.s.
I'd get rid of the range.
It looks like there will be a ton of balls on #1 and it would give you more room for 1, 2 & 4.
Cheers

Mike

The practice ground is at this location at the request of the client - I would have liked it be part of a hole rather than a practice ground.

Cheers

Ben

[Adrian_Stiff]

p.s.
I'd get rid of the range.
It looks like there will be a ton of balls on #1 and it would give you more room for 1, 2 & 4.
Cheers

Mike

The practice ground is at this location at the request of the client - I would have liked it be part of a hole rather than a practice ground.

Cheers

Ben

The front nine virtually just needs to be mown, the fairways are 'there' for some of these holes, hence the quirky position of the 1st tee. I think Ben has some back tees in places that maybe dont work, I know 18 is a 350 yarder, it does not work from further back and 2 needs to  be at 410 or so, theres a natural shelf there and you need to be at that dogleg not short...right is awkward ground that defends itself you wont be going down the 1st at 410 but yes you might at 465. The 1st is much shorter too, the green sits nearer, 5 is a no-no at 230 as well. It is important to understand that this drawing is very schematic, the main purpose was to show the relationship of the urbanisation to the golf, there are quite exact sites for some of the tees, greens because of the land, the sites are easier to see on the topo map at 1:1000, obviously much easier to spot when you are there. ABSOLUTELY there would be sacrifice of length to use the best sites and the idea is TOTALLY to produce an enjoyable golf course, very walkable and I dont think it can get up to 7300 yards even though that would not be a bad thing if it was possible, I think Ben's right in his quest to search for length, but the advantage I have over him is I have seen the land. 11 on my plan was a 5 about 100 yards further on, 12 was a tiddler across the valley and 13 a shortish 4, it's a classic case of identifying best spots for fairways on the back nine and siting tees to hit those spots, unless you want to move lots of soil. 16 and 17 are on less intresting land and those do need to be made..interestingly the 18th would finish in the middle of the town.

[Ben Stephens]

p.s.
I'd get rid of the range.
It looks like there will be a ton of balls on #1 and it would give you more room for 1, 2 & 4.
Cheers

Mike

The practice ground is at this location at the request of the client - I would have liked it be part of a hole rather than a practice ground.

Cheers

Ben

The front nine virtually just needs to be mown, the fairways are 'there' for some of these holes, hence the quirky position of the 1st tee. I think Ben has some back tees in places that maybe dont work, I know 18 is a 350 yarder, it does not work from further back and 2 needs to  be at 410 or so, theres a natural shelf there and you need to be at that dogleg not short...right is awkward ground that defends itself you wont be going down the 1st at 410 but yes you might at 465. The 1st is much shorter too, the green sits nearer, 5 is a no-no at 230 as well. It is important to understand that this drawing is very schematic, the main purpose was to show the relationship of the urbanisation to the golf, there are quite exact sites for some of the tees, greens because of the land, the sites are easier to see on the topo map at 1:1000, obviously much easier to spot when you are there. ABSOLUTELY there would be sacrifice of length to use the best sites and the idea is TOTALLY to produce an enjoyable golf course, very walkable and I dont think it can get up to 7300 yards even though that would not be a bad thing if it was possible, I think Ben's right in his quest to search for length, but the advantage I have over him is I have seen the land. 11 on my plan was a 5 about 100 yards further on, 12 was a tiddler across the valley and 13 a shortish 4, it's a classic case of identifying best spots for fairways on the back nine and siting tees to hit those spots, unless you want to move lots of soil. 16 and 17 are on less intresting land and those do need to be made..interestingly the 18th would finish in the middle of the town.

I agree with you Adrian, re: some of the tees may not work for the landing area as well as visually. I do need to go on the site sometime next year and the design plans will evolve and improve in terms of playing conditions.

The fairways could be overseeded and topdressed to improve the playing conditions.

The practice ground and the putting green are on the path towards the 1st tee which is a good progression prior to the start of the round. Also the opening drive and second shots and putts on the green will be clearly visible from the clubhouse!

I have tried to max the golf course out so that the urban areas are not built over danger areas. It has maxed at a potential 7300 plus yards. Realistically it’ll be around 6800 yards so we have plenty of room to achieve that target rather than trying to squeeze it all in – it has ‘breathing space’

10 and 18th holes gives it a Scottish golf town feel.

Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

I can't figure out what is going on here. Are Ben and Adrian in the same office, but having a design conference on this thread, or are you guys with two separate entities? In one day it has been decided to go from about 120 bunkers to 60 and possibly lop off 500 yards. The discussion here involves some detailed design and site specific issues yet it may not break ground until 2020 and it is up for sale. This has been a very strange thread or I am not being very attentive.

Kelly,

Adrian and I are miles away from each other – over 150 miles apart. I have been into Adrian’s office three times this year for a couple of days.

We are not having a design conference on this thread – it’s more like letting people know and sort of knowing what is going on with a golf course design/masterplan during the early stages of a project.  We have been as open as possible.

It was already decided that it was to be around 6800 yards with around 40 bunkers to start off with and the course will evolve over time with additional tees and bunkers etc. The 7300 yard was the potential maximum yardage that we could achieve and also is has been a bit of a misnomer. Maybe it would have been a bit easier if I did not put the yardage card up  

Also this was a task so that we can achieve the number of units required by the developer plus additional facilities to create a town which resembles a Scottish Golf town. I tried not to make the development enroach the golf course too much so therfore there is flexibility from both the golf course and the development rather than trying to squeeze eveything in.

The design has not been fixed. The front nine layout is more or less fixed and the back nine layout is still a work in progress Adrian and I have several different options. The priority in this drawing was the development side. It is early days – there is no detailed design work at all this drawing was done by hand and over a CAD contour drawing done by someone else. This is more like a marketing image than the finished article.

The current market in Bulgaria/Eastern Europe for golf developments is dire. It is Adrian’s prediction that it will pick up by 2020 I think it will be sooner. It is handy to work on a design during the quiet times which will help us to prepare better when things start picking up again.

We are letting others know about this opportunity to create a real proper golf course that is fun to play on rather than a resort type course. This does not happen very often. Also very few people put early sketch proposals up on GCA.

Adrian has many advantages over me as he has been to the site many times, he has vast experience from a greenkeeping point of view and the commercial side of golf courses which I have learned from him. I have not been to the site so I am relying on images and contour plans so in some ways from the golf course perspective we are on a different wavelength. The priority at this stage is the development. If there is no development there is no golf course.

Cheers
Ben

[Lester George]

KBM,

You beat me to it!

Lester

[Ulrich Mayring]

Just a thought, but I believe many male golfers don't like playing from middle or even forward tees - irrespective of the length. They want to play the back tees and don't care much whether they are 7000 or 6000 yards. Average hitters will grudgingly pick a more forward set of tees, if the back tees are extremely long, but the key word here is "grudgingly". Ladies tend to prefer one set of forward tees as well, many are more confused than anything having to pick from several choices. So in my mind, for all courses except those played on Tour, two sets of tees is ideal:

- no one has to feel bad because he cannot play as far back as his buddies
- it's good for the building and maintenance budget
- very good players will have many looks at birdie and the occasional eagle putt
- there's no needless walking green to tee, or even backwards to the championship tee
- every tee not built adds to the course's visuals
- everyone plays the same course and can relate to each other's adventures in the clubhouse

What's not to like? Maybe a handful of snobbish players shunning the course, but for the vast majority the experience will be so much better.

Ulrich

[Brian Phillips]

Ben,

Nice layout.  What program have you used to create that?

[Ben Stephens]

Ben,

Nice layout.  What program have you used to create that?

Brian,

I had been drawing the layout on AutoCAD but due to the nature of it being 'too perfect and finished design' I decided for a early stage masterplan it would be better if it was drawn by hand. So therefore I had a large A1 print of the contour drawing at 1:2500 and used tracing paper and sketched it all over it. Then I scanned a number of A3 drawings in pdf format and put them back together like a jigsaw on Adobe Photoshop using a PDF print of the CAD contours which I pushed it into the background. The course and masterplan were coloured in Photoshop. Presentation layout was in Photoshop but also can be done on Adobe InDesign.

The next stage will mostly be done in AutoCAD and finished off in Photoshop in some areas.

Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

Kelly,

Adrian and I are miles away from each other – over 150 miles apart. I have been into Adrian’s office three times this year for a couple of days.

We are not having a design conference on this thread – it’s more like letting people know and sort of knowing what is going on with a golf course design/masterplan during the early stages of a project.  We have been as open as possible.

It was already decided that it was to be around 6800 yards with around 40 bunkers to start off with and the course will evolve over time with additional tees and bunkers etc. The 7300 yard was the potential maximum yardage that we could achieve and also is has been a bit of a misnomer. Maybe it would have been a bit easier if I did not put the yardage card up  

Also this was a task so that we can achieve the number of units required by the developer plus additional facilities to create a town which resembles a Scottish Golf town. I tried not to make the development enroach the golf course too much so therfore there is flexibility from both the golf course and the development rather than trying to squeeze eveything in.

The design has not been fixed. The front nine layout is more or less fixed and the back nine layout is still a work in progress Adrian and I have several different options. The priority in this drawing was the development side. It is early days – there is no detailed design work at all this drawing was done by hand and over a CAD contour drawing done by someone else. This is more like a marketing image than the finished article.

The current market in Bulgaria/Eastern Europe for golf developments is dire. It is Adrian’s prediction that it will pick up by 2020 I think it will be sooner. It is handy to work on a design during the quiet times which will help us to prepare better when things start picking up again.

We are letting others know about this opportunity to create a real proper golf course that is fun to play on rather than a resort type course. This does not happen very often. Also very few people put early sketch proposals up on GCA.

Adrian has many advantages over me as he has been to the site many times, he has vast experience from a greenkeeping point of view and the commercial side of golf courses which I have learned from him. I have not been to the site so I am relying on images and contour plans so in some ways from the golf course perspective we are on a different wavelength. The priority at this stage is the development. If there is no development there is no golf course.

Cheers
Ben

Ben,

Thanks for the explanation. The overall plan is attractive. I hope things turn around in Bulgaria and the project gets going sooner than later.

Kelly,

No probs + thank you for your kind comment. I also hope things pick up sooner than later .

Cheers
Ben

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Ben:

The Renaissance Club is 7400 yards because the owners are well connected with the US PGA Tour and at one point had a deal to host one of the American Express / World Golf Championship events.  Unfortunately a permitting delay busted that deal.  Sebonack is 7400 yards because my two co designers Nicklaus and Pascucci insisted.  I would not have chosen to make it that long myself.

I thought your response was pretty weak.  The "serious and advanced golfer" enjoys challenges other than length, and 99%of paying visitors are unlikely to play at anywhere near that length.  

I will wager that 3 out of 5 courses in Bulgaria are already 7300 yards, because other modern designers are just as carried away as you are.  These courses will likely sit half empty for years to come because they intimidate and frustrate the potential local golfers.  And 7300 rads is also hard to justify on sustainable grounds.  I am not blaming you for starting this insanity, but I would hope that some young architects would help fight the problem instead of exacerbating it.  Bulgaria deserves better.

TomD,

You have just given three examples of where the designer (or co-designer) did not have the ultimate say in how long the course would be. Who's to say it isn't a similar situation for the "3 out of 5 courses in Bulgaria are already 7300 yards" that you mentioned? Also, what chance does a young architect have of fighting for a sub-7000 yds course if you couldn't win the fight yourself with the three courses mentioned above?

[Ryan Farrow]

Lester, Kelly.... would I be welcomed as the 3rd?





and to top it off, Tom Doak is ready to throw down..... I think its time for a drink.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Just saw an ad in Ocean Home magazine, the luxury coastal lifestyle magazine, for Thracian Cliffs:

http://www.thraciancliffs.com/

I have no idea how this magazine arrived in my mail box.

[Ben Stephens]

Just saw an ad in Ocean Home magazine, the luxury coastal lifestyle magazine, for Thracian Cliffs:

http://www.thraciancliffs.com/

I have no idea how I this magazine arrived in my mail box.

Hi Steve,

There are a number of Gary Player courses in play in Cape Kaliakra Ian Woosnam was involved at the Lighthouse resort.
Adrian has been to one of them. 

http://www.capekaliakra.com/
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Player-on-playability-in-Bulgaria/1711/Default.aspx

Recently another course 60km NW of Sofia has opened -

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Bulgarian-PM-opens-new-course/2158/Default.aspx

Cheers
Ben

[Adrian_Stiff]

I have been to all three in this area. All nice, Thracian Cliffs is on a world class piece of land, there was some form of landslide many years ago (thousands) and the cliffbasically slid into the sea, I saw the land pre construction and the features were very abrupt almost linkslike with scattered pine and scrub trees. IMO it would have been a perfect minimalist site, I would not have removed as much vegatation as GP has, but I guess if you need to hit 7000 yards sometimes there is less room to work with existing stuff and I think others stick far more to sets of rules than I do. All things taken into account Thracian Cliffs is very nice and most that play this course will have this in their top 5 golf courses they will ever get to play. The other two courses are only a few minutes away, a little more manufactured but typical of what you see at the better Southern European courses and very capable of staging pro stuff.
The bad news is still the same as last year, not enough peoplegolfing and there seems to be less flights going there from regional airports which needs to be reversed if 3 or 4 day golf breaks take off. The food and drink is cheap, golf is good and price is very reasonable but its hard to beat the economic gloom.

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