Raynor and his Template

[Bob_Huntley]

I need help. Can anyone advise me as to the salient features that Raynor's courses had in common? I am not speaking here of the Eden  and Redan holes etc., but bunkering and green size.

It seems that a Club here in California, is seeking to make its Raynor course suitable for inclusion into a Top 100 magazine listing. The reason given, to attract new members. Noted experts have been engaged to advise on the inclusion of Raynor-like features or restoration of the course.

I am not sure, but I do remember he preferred deep bunkers that cut into the putting surfaces etc. When one thinks of a club iin this day and age spending money on making a course harder, seems somewhat strange. With a membership having an average age a freckle above seventy years and probably not a dozen of them capable of consistently shooting par or below, one wonders why.


Bob

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bob,

If the club is looking for new members from the same age group (70 or so) then I'd agree with you.

I fondly remember playing with many gentlemen of that age group when I was half their age. They were never in the bunker so it didn't matter how deep they were.   

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob,

If the club is looking for new members from the same age group (70 or so) then I'd agree with you.

Jim,

At $225,000.00 a crack I don't see many youngsters applying.

Bob

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bob,
Touche.

There are roughly 9 miillion millionaires in the U.S. with around 550k of them living in 4 California counties. The median age of these folks is 58 years.

Not 'youngsters'. 

[Bob_Huntley]

Jim,

58, Good God man, that to me is flaming youth. 


Bob

[George_Bahto]

see reply #13

[ed_getka]

George,
   I would imagine you could be more helpful than that when it comes to Mr. Raynor's M.O.

[ed_getka]

Bob,
    I would advise contacting Donnie Beck. In conversations we have had he has made some very perceptive comments about Raynor's style. It is good to see you posting.

[Bill_McBride]

Bob, I have only played the Shore (thank you very much    ), so wonder how much of the Raynor look Jim Kennedy posted above is still evident on the Dunes.  That look requires dedication of the greenkeeping staff, with all the sharp edges and straight lines, so could have been softened over the years.  Do you think such a historically accurate look is important to prospective new members?

[TEPaul]

"I need help. Can anyone advise me as to the salient features that Raynor's courses had in common? I am not speaking here of the Eden  and Redan holes etc., but bunkering and green size.

It seems that a Club here in California, is seeking to make its Raynor course suitable for inclusion into a Top 100 magazine listing. The reason given, to attract new members. Noted experts have been engaged to advise on the inclusion of Raynor-like features or restoration of the course.

I am not sure, but I do remember he preferred deep bunkers that cut into the putting surfaces etc. When one thinks of a club iin this day and age spending money on making a course harder, seems somewhat strange. With a membership having an average age a freckle above seventy years and probably not a dozen of them capable of consistently shooting par or below, one wonders why."



Bob:

There are definitely a pretty good number of Raynor courses that have had some very fine restoration projects done to them in the last 20+ years or so. Why not just tell the club you mentioned to get in touch with a number of those clubs and ask them about their restoration projects and the restoration architects who did their projects? That's what collaboration is all about.

If you'd like I'll make you an initial list of the Raynor (some Macdonald) courses and the architects who did their restorations. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bill,
Minor correction. The photos of Raynor's fine work were posted by KBM, not me.

[Anthony Gray]

  Didn't he repeat many of his par 3s?

   Anthony

[George_Bahto]

Sir Bob - Greenside, Seth Raynor style bunkering on the course you speak of need not be deeper than they are now - they would be closer to the green pads, their bunker-faces would be more abrupt but I doubt they play too much differently then they do now, however, I do think they would LOOK more intimidating.

Through the green, the bunkers would play about the same as they do now, but there would be more of them, and more strategically positioned, in order to reflect "proper" Raynor design philosophies.

You would have yourself a Raynor golf course on the west coast, just as the owners originally intended. How bad could that be?

If golfers play the course from appropriate tees, there should not be a problem and I think they would have a lot of fun facing the challenges presented.

gb

[Adam Clayman]

George nails the salient points. Fun and Challenging.

Sir Boab,
 Harder, more difficult should not enter into the picture. No hole is hard if the proper shots are hit. And if not... easy, the alternative, doesn't seem to inspire much, or the many.

For m, the BIG questions, divergence, lies in the mind of the player.If they are a real sportsman, do they really want easy? No, they want to be challenged. On the other hand, if the player is of a mind that they expect their golf to be fundamentally the same, hole after hole, without much opportunity to have the ball end up anywhere but where they want it, is this really golf?

Catering to these game mind players is the dearth of the modern era of gca. Isn't that why we're seeing the return of great bold features, like those at Sleepy Hollow, or the ones Tom Jim and Mike built at Old Mac? Or why a course like Lawsonia, where L&M built these types of features, has stood the test of time?

Catering to the whims of the day, or the fashion du jour, caters to the most fickle (and selfish) of players. This club in question might be able to sell a few memberships if the decision to go forth accommodates theses, but I highly doubt they'd be able to sway the panelists whom your stated goal is to impress.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Did you know they tried to get Macdonald to do Monterry Peninsula (the Shore course?) and he refused? At least that is what the history book of that complex seems to suggest.

Or, you may want to contact Pat Mucci and speak with him about this, as he regularly channels Charles Blair Macdonald and he very well may be able to channel Seth Raynor too.

For that matter, he may be able to channel H.J. Whigam who was most certainly familiar with what Seth Raynor felt about certain things to do with architecture judging from that fascinating article Whigam wrote about Raynor's thoughts on some of the holes of The Creek Club and others.

In my personal opinion, if they really want to Raynorize that golf course out there they should seriously consider going with some really big convex sand mound bunkers!! You can't believe what we recently found out in that vein with The Creek Club and its #10 which Raynor thought was a better Leven Hole than NGLA's #17 (according to Whigam's article)! Or they could go with a really cool Raynor punchbowl green which Mountain Lake had once and which Raynor said was the inspiration for The Creek's amazing #6 green (also according to Whigam's article)!! Or they could even build something that looks like the deck of an aircraft carrier, put a moat around it, and call it a "Biarritz" ala The Creek's #11. Or how about a "Lion's Mouth?" We could show you how Seth did that originally on the 9th at Fox Chapel!!!

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,
Minor correction. The photos of Raynor's fine work were posted by KBM, not me.

Thanks, should have gone back to check.  Nice work Kelly!

[hick]

We just completed a restoration of the bunkers at Wanumetonomy, and I will try and post some photos this week . The bunkers look to be as deep as those in the Yeamans and Charleston photos.

[Bob_Huntley]

We just completed a restoration of the bunkers at Wanumetonomy, and I will try and post some photos this week . The bunkers look to be as deep as those in the Yeamans and Charleston photos.

Mat,

Thanks for your reply, I'll look forward to seeing the photographs.


Bob

[George_Bahto]

Bob - your beautiful 16th hole from the drive landing zone usually leaves about 100 yards or so into this green - (what a great background)

your present green is the lower picture

I photo-shopped what a typical Raynor bunker would look like - top picture

both sand shots would be similar in difficulty although the Raynor-looking bunker face would probably be steeper, of course

[hick]

Bob,

Here are some photos from the front 9 at Wanumetonomy.  It was Ron Prichard's restoration. The back 9 has some good ones including the Eden 12th hole; I'll try to photograph those next week.

1st hole approach



1st hole back left



1st hole right



3rd hole back right



5th hole



5th hole right



6th hole left

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

Not knowing the motives and relying on your superior knowledge of the situation, do you think it's possible that those in favor of giving the course an immediate Raynor recognition visually, are doing so based solely to give the course a "brand" based on the look and not the playability ?