Are there (apart from the originals) any template holes in GB&I or Europe?

[Cristian]

The purpose of CBM's template hole concept was of course to import the best design principles from overseas to the US. However it is imaginable that the designers of that time active in GB&I or on the continent were also using principles of the strongest holes they found on the classics.

Perhaps sometimes these were the same holes as of CBM's preference. Also maybe designers in more recent years have built these kind of holes east of the Atlantic. In other words; Does anybody know of Biarritz's, Redan's, Road holes etc. in Europe?

[TEPaul]

Cristian:

There was an Alps hole at Myopia before Macdonald even came up with the idea of template holes. It was not just an Alps hole, it was called "Alps."

Who came up with the "Alps" hole at Myopia?

Good question! However, all the men who were involved with Myopia early on all had familiarity with GB for various reasons including international sailing, fox hunting and even polo and all of them had gotten into golf early on.

[Cristian]

TEP:

I guess it would have been very coincidental if only CBM / Raynor would have adopted the concept of templating classic holes. Your Alps example proves this.

I wonder if east of the Atlantic examples exist as well. I am not sure, but I think I have read on this site about a road hole version on a Mackenzie course in England, possibly somewhere southwest......

[Sean_A]

TEP:

I guess it would have been very coincidental if only CBM / Raynor would have adopted the concept of templating classic holes. Your Alps example proves this.

I wonder if west of the Atlantic examples exist as well. I am not sure, but I think I have read on this site about a road hole version on a Mackenzie course in England, possibly somewhere southwest......

Christian

Yes, at Weston-super-Mare there is a Road Hole - the 15th.  Some threads to ponder.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38320.0/

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38439.0/

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Cristian,

When you are talking "templates", do you mean specifically the ones that CBM used e.g. Road, Alps, Eden, Redan etc...

If so, I'd guess that there are quite a few but they just weren't named as such (or even highlighted as such by the architect)...

If you actually mean any hole based on the idea of an old classic hole, I think you will find thousands as designed by every architect that has ever conceived a golf course...

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

There was a "Desert" hole and there still is a "Matterhorn" hole at Portsalon.

I suppose it's possible that whoever gave these holes their names, was aware of the Sahara and Alps holes. But considering the raw nature of courses in those days, it's very likely that there were many courses around GB&I that had similar holes. I can't imagine that they were template holes; who in their right mind would would set out to make a desert on a golf course?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

There are many Spion Kops. The subject was discussed years ago somewhere on GCA.

There are plenty of Cape Holes. Features were imitated too, such as the burn on the 1st on the Old Course and Principal's Nose bunkers.

[Cristian]

There was a "Desert" hole and there still is a "Matterhorn" hole at Portsalon.

I suppose it's possible that whoever gave these holes their names, was aware of the Sahara and Alps holes. But considering the raw nature of courses in those days, it's very likely that there were many courses around GB&I that had similar holes. I can't imagine that they were template holes; who in their right mind would would set out to make a desert on a golf course?

I am not familiar with the course; do these holes resemble Alps / Sahara characteristics?

[DMoriarty]

TEP:

I guess it would have been very coincidental if only CBM / Raynor would have adopted the concept of templating classic holes. Your Alps example proves this.

Cristian, you have to take what TEPaul says about this stuff with a large grain of salt.   So far as I know, there is no connection between the hole called the "Alps" at Myopia and the Alps hole at Prestwick.  The Alps at Myopia was only 220 yards long in 1898, and had no fronting bunker until 1909.   In 1911, a description of the hole indicated that the Alps were to be avoided on the first shot, not the second, and a shot over the Alps would land the golfer in sand traps.  A fronting bunker was not built until someAlps was a fairly common name, almost generic name for golf holes will hills or even sometimes mounding, or "alpinization."   Being named an "Alps" doesn't mean they were modeled after Prestwick.  

Similarly, there was a hole called the "Redan" at the Country Club in Brookline.   It was a drop shot par three with a large bunker in front, and reportedly had nothing to do with the Redan at North Berwick.  

[Tom_Doak]

Harry Colt occasionally built holes which remind me of the Redan, without so much tilt to the green.  There is one at St. George's Hill, I think it's the third.

MacKenzie also built a few versions of the Eden ... there is one on the back nine at Cavendish.

In general, though, not so many template holes over there.  I think most of the architects in Britain thought they had good raw material to work with so they didn't need templates.

[TEPaul]

Cristian:

Moriarty says you should take what I say with a large grain of salt. Not about the architectural history of Myopia you shouldn't.

Moriarty's description of Myopia's Alps hole (#10) is completely screwed up because he doesn't know shit about the architectural history of that golf course. He's never even seen the course and he's never seen any of the club's historical records of the evolution of the course. When Moriarty qualifies something he says with "so far as I know" you can DEFINITELY take what he says with a humongous GRAIN of SALT!!! 

The original nine hole course apparently had an Alps hole and the so-called Long Nine of Leeds kept it and/or improved it. It was from approximately the present 10th tee to the present #11th green. When Leeds added nine more holes the 10th hole was from the original 10th tee to a new green approximately 320+ yards from the 11th green. That new hole had a large hill in front of the green blinding the green on the approach shot and that hole continued to be called the Alps even after that hill was removed.

[DMoriarty]

Tom Doak's post reminded me of something MacKenzie wrote.   I cannot recall the hole but I believe he wrote that he built a hole very much like the Redan, only I think he claimed to have designed it before he ever saw the Redan hole.  

____________________________________

Cristian, I am trying to ignore TEPaul's obnoxious and insulting posts and stick to the facts.

-- While it was later lengthened, in 1898, the "Alps" at Myopia was 220 yards. This hardly sounds like the hole at Prestwick.  
-- According to Bunker Hill in 1909, the hole "receive[d] its name from the hillocks to be carried from the teeing ground."  This hardly sounds like the hole at Prestwick.    
-- Bunker Hill also noted that ground was removed from before the green, but not because of a "large hill" as TEPaul claims.  Rather, the green was blind because it was in a hollow and due to the "undulating nature" of the ground.   The high spots were removed to create visibility.  This undulating ground had nothing to do with why the hole was called the Alps.    

As I said, there were many courses with "Alps" holes, but they weren't necessarily modeled after Prestwick.  This was one of those holes.  

[Sean_A]

MacKenzie also built a few versions of the Eden ... there is one on the back nine at Cavendish.

Yes, the 15th is very Edenish.  13 is very Redanish and I think with the bunker well short of the green the hole had to have been a copy.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Gil Hanse built a Road Hole as the 1st at Crail Craighead (as a par 5).

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

There was a "Desert" hole and there still is a "Matterhorn" hole at Portsalon.

I suppose it's possible that whoever gave these holes their names, was aware of the Sahara and Alps holes. But considering the raw nature of courses in those days, it's very likely that there were many courses around GB&I that had similar holes. I can't imagine that they were template holes; who in their right mind would would set out to make a desert on a golf course?

I am not familiar with the course; do these holes resemble Alps / Sahara characteristics?

Cristian,

The original Matterhorn was a 240 yds bogey 4 hole. It played directly over the rock, but in 1912 the hole was extended to a par 4 and the Matterhorn rock found itself at the outside corner of a gentle left-to-right dogleg. This is how it is played to this day.



Going over the "Matterhorn", Portsalon.

A course description was included in Garden Smith’s book The World of Golf (1898); the description having been penned by a W.J. MacGeagh:

The 5th hole is aptly called "Desert." One drives off from a high place into space and over rocks, boulders, stones, sand, and bent. The distance is set down as 195 yards, but a lesser number would probably be nearer accuracy. The green is a good one, and as it is cuppy a long straight drive will remain there, and reward the player with his second 3.



The "Desert", Portsalon.

It was played to a green behind the present 2nd green and was in use until the course was redesigned by Pat Ruddy.

[TEPaul]

"Cristian, I am trying to ignore TEPaul's obnoxious and insulting posts and stick to the facts.

-- While it was later lengthened, in 1898, the "Alps" at Myopia was 220 yards. This hardly sounds like the hole at Prestwick.  
-- According to Bunker Hill in 1909, the hole "receive[d] its name from the hillocks to be carried from the teeing ground."  This hardly sounds like the hole at Prestwick.    
-- Bunker Hill also noted that ground was removed from before the green, but not because of a "large hill" as TEPaul claims.  Rather, the green was blind because it was in a hollow and due to the "undulating nature" of the ground.   The high spots were removed to create visibility.  This undulating ground had nothing to do with why the hole was called the Alps.    

As I said, there were many courses with "Alps" holes, but they weren't necessarily modeled after Prestwick.  This was one of those holes."



Cristian:

If you have any interest in the history and evolution of the Alps hole at Myopia please do not take what Moriarty said above about it seriously. If you would like to know its history and evolution I'd be glad to explain it to you. David Moriarty knows nothing about the architectural history of that course or hole other than what he just quoted from "Bunker Hill" from American Golfer and what Moriarty tried to say about it is very meaningfully inaccurate to say the least. If Moriarty had ever actually seen that golf course and that hole he may have some idea why what he says is "meaningfully inaccurate" (to quote Tom MacWood's efficient terminology  ) but on the other hand considering what Moriarty says on here, even if he did see the course he probably still wouldn't understand it or the history and evolution of the Alps hole on it.  

And I should add, there is nothing at all obnoxious or insulting about what I'm saying here----for as David Moriarty correctly says, we need to stick to the facts.  

[Philippe Binette]

There is an Alps hole at TAIN GC

[Niall C]

From what I've read of MacKenzie in the UK he seemed to try and incorporate an Eden hole at every opportunity (Erskine amongst others). The redan was another favourite (Pollok). I've also seen a redan by Old Tom (Killermont) which pre-dates CBM and NGLA. Architects whether they be the multi-tasking pro from pre-golden age or the golden age architects themselves seemed to use templates on a regular basis.

The fact that CBM is so associated with template holes is perhaps due to the scale and scope of NGLA in incorporating so many of the famous holes into one course.

Niall

[Tom_Doak]

There is an Alps hole at TAIN GC

Philippe,

Surely the 17th at Prestwick was not the first blind par 4 over a dune ... It just became the most famous of them due to championship play.  I doubt that any of the other blind holes built before 1890 or 1900 were really based on the Prestwick Alps in particular.

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