Tony Cashmore

[Shane Gurnett]

This one is directed at the Aussies on this site.

I'm trying to find some info on designer Tony Cashmore, but I cant get into his website. I know he has done 13th Beach, Kingston Links, finished the Dunes and done some work at I think Kingswood and Long Island. Have I missed anything?

I am particularly interested to know if he has done any work on the sandbelt. Rumour has it that he consulted to Yarra Yarra on their Master Plan but the end result was far from satisfactory to all concerned. Any facts to back this up would be great.

Thanks, Shane.

[Chris Kane]

I'm not going to make any comment regarding Cashmore on the sandbelt, becuase I don't have any info on hand.

But I will say that I loved The Dunes, thought Kingston Links was good fun for what it was, and have been told that he made alterations at Long Island that weren't seen as highly as the rest of the course is(Please note that I've only played Long Island post-Cashmore, so I have nothing to compare it with).  The holes at LI he's supposedly responsible for are less than fantastic IMHO.  

Overall, I think he does nice work in some circumstances.  He did have the benefit of wonderful land for The Dunes and 13th Beach.  Apparantly the land for Kingston Links was atrocious.  I think the result came out ok.

I'm intrigued about this story from Yarra Yarra.  Why they'd want to implement changes is beyond me, unless it was a restoration project.

[Justin_Ryan]

He is doing the second course at The Heritage. He is apparently doing three courses in the States and possibly even one in France, as well as the San Remo and 13th Beach II with Faldo.  He has done plenty of work around Victoria in the past, including Bright, Melton Valley, Goonawarra and Yarrambat.  I heartily recommend Bright, beautiful scenery, a switched on young greenkeeper and plenty of things to occupy the wife and kids whilst you're out playing golf all day.

What could you do with YY anyhow?  Chris is right, they could do a restoration, but from what I remember, they don't really have the room to do any more than that, do they?

[Chris Kane]

.

[Shane Gurnett]

Justin

How come the Bear didn't get the second gig at the Heritage? Were they not happy with his first effort? Will be interesting to see how Cashmore goes in the hills, as opposed to the dunes. Which is the better land?

Also, any other views on Cashmores work at Long Island or Kingswood? From what I've heard from a few members, the jury is still out on Kingswoods new four holes. I guess only time will tell.

Still chasing any info on the YY master plan and Cashmores invlovement, if any. I believe the proposal was to alter at least 10 holes (including a whole new 7th), which the membership were not too happy about. Interesting.....

[Justin_Ryan]

Mr g
I would imagine that Cashmore is doing the second course at The Heritage because his design fee would be considerably smaller than that of Mr Nicklaus (and I mean considerably).  At the recent Nicklaus visit, Jack got the developer really squirming when he asked him on the 18th green in front of a huge crowd how many members they had.  One was left with the distinct impression that it wasn't as many as they would have liked, so it would be fair to assume that money is the issue.  Jack did seek to reassure the club members that members of his team would be staying back to help out, after talking down the second track without mentioning Cashmore.  From the plans I saw in the clubhouse, the Cashmore course looks more interesting, but I doubt they would let it overshadow the centrepiece Nicklaus track, which I didn't find particularly interesting or enjoyable anyhow.

[David_Elvins]

Shane,

I think that Tony Cashmore's first work on the sanbelt was putting that dam/wetland on the back nine at Sandringham.  
From small things...



I think he has also did a heap of redesig work at Box Hill.  A good case study on how to take a bad and turn it into ....a bad course.  Although to be fair I got the idea that there were a LOT of limiting factors.

[bigger picture]

Shane g your initial question re Tony Casmore smells to me of a promotional plug

[Justin_Ryan]

BP
How do you deduce that Shane g is plugging the work of Mr Cashmore?  It wasn't as if he actually said anything positive.  If you are going to question his motives, at least come out from behind your alias (at least he uses half his name).  If I was going to indulge in idle speculation as to his reasons for starting the thread, I would hazard a guess that he has heard that Cashmore has been pencilled in to do work at his club and is not sure this will provide the best outcome.  I think that Tony Cashmore is perfectly capable of plugging his work without requiring the services of a highly ranked financial services executive such as Mr g.

[Shane Gurnett]

Thanks Justin, well said. I have no connection to Cashmore, and have never met him. I am simply trying to find out a little more about the guy and his work. In particular his work with YY.

There may be some truth in what Justin says about Cashmore being involved with some work at my club. I just want to make sure he has the cedentials to do the right thing.

Shane

[bigger picture]

Shane

if that is the case I apologise ....nice to see you doing your due dilligence

[disgruntled]

Tony Cashmore,

It is sad to report the destruction of the great long par 5 4th at Long Island, turned from one of the best par 5's into the worst.  In addition to this he added the wonderfully uninspiring 13th, seperated by some terrifically 'unlongislandlike' mounding.

Tony worked at a number of country courses before landing this one at Long Island (which, my insiders tell me cost 4 times the amount that was first quoted - plus the alterations opened up some amazing views of the neighboring school!!)

Since then most know his resume - the Dunes, 13th Beach, Kinston Links, Heritage etc. etc.

Chris, I must take up with you your thoughts (and everyone elses) on the Dunes.  It isn't that good.  In fact it's pretty ordinary.  The 6th has got to be the worst par 3 on the planet - well one of - the tee shot at the 1st is also terrible, over a blind , forever doglegging corner, that includes a number of bunkers - none of which can be seen from the tee.  16 is a shocking tee shot, 12 is pretty ordinary and overall the bunkers, which seem to recieve a lot of acclaim, are overworked and too 'clever' i.e. there is no subtlety, instead of adding to a great green or tee-shot they seem to have been crafted so that they themselves are the focus of attention.

In addition, the only reason the Dunes gets so much acclaim is because it's different, its a links course - something that Australia doesn't have many of.  So for the average golfer, they can pay $40 for a course that's always in good condition, is different - you know, come and 'experience Britain' - and as far as they can see is pretty good.

I will, however, compliment TC on his work at 13th Beach.  Whilst some of the bunkering is still a little overdone, it is a  good golf course and worthy of being in Australia's top 25.

As far as I can see, the quality of his work is still unproven, apart from two courses set on extraordinarily good pieces of land.

[Shane Gurnett]

Disgruntled

A sad story indeed. We need to talk. Please send me an email at gurngunja@hotmail.com

[David_Elvins]

"Disgruntled"  thinks that the sixth at the Dunes is one of the worlds worst Par 3's.  What do other people think?  

200m Par 3, big downhill, shallow green that slopes away to a water hazard at the back.  It is definetly an original hole.

I would have though that the play would be to run it down the fairway (but miss the big mound in the middle of the fairway to the side the pin is on.)  I haven't played the course enough times to try it out.  Does this work?  

[Brian Walshe]

David,

I'm not sure I totally agree with Disgruntled about the Dunes.  The tee shot on 1 is only an issue if you get greedy and go too far right.  You can after all hit it straight and just leave yourself a long second.  I actually really like the 12th, to me it's a great heroic hole where the brave and foolhardy are tempted to take on the sandy waste and go at the green in two.  I'm not sure why the tee shot on 16 is a shocker, I've never had an issue with it.

Where I have to agree is the 6th.  It just doesn't work that well, particularly with the water hazard/swamp behind.  When it first opened you could run just about any club on (I've seen a range of 2 iron to 8 iron in the same group) and normally thru and into the water.  The last time I played it seemed that they'd let the grass grow at the front of the green a little and the ball didn't run anywhere near as much which if anything made it worse as the hole was obviously designed to let you run the ball up.

The other hole that I don't like is 4.  The green is perched and not very deep at all.  Downwind it is impossible to hold  unless you smash driver over towards the 7th fairway and give yourself a 2nd shot down the length of it.

Overall it's a good track and a bargain at $40.

[Justin Hanrahan]

Thought I might chip in with a comment after having played 13th Beach the week before last...

Having really enjoyed The Dunes (it is good fun, nothing more, but that is worth something, I think), I was looking forward to it and dragged friends down there who would have otherwise been happy to play in town.

In two words - most disappointing.

Maybe the hype sucked me in (the new courses spend so much time promoting themsleves "the best", "most original" or "soon to be classic") but the course so was "blah"...

Outside the par threes, all of which were good, the course did nothing for me.

The 1,2 & 4 are dull as dishwater, 5 is a very nice short par four, but after chopping my way down the hole, I can't review it properly.

6 is a disgraceful par 5 that should never have been built...I could explain, but it would take too long.

From there it is into the dunes for a while and it was largely forgettable.

The par fives were somewhere between plain and shocking, the threes quite good and the fours largely unimaginative.

Just one man's opinion, I know, but at the end of 1.5 hours drive I was expecting something special and I got far less.

[David_Elvins]

Brian,

Agree with you on the 1st hole T shot.  There is nothing wrong with a blind tee shot, especially when there is an option to go straight and safe.  The old layout used to great where you got an unbelievable view of the hole from the 6th Tee and could see all the trouble around the corner before you got to the hole when it played as the 8th.  

Isn't the idea with the 4th to take on the fairway bunker to leave a shot up the length of the green?

[Brian Walshe]

David,

That might be the theory on 4 but it doesn't work that way.  Have a look at  http://www.thedunes.com.au/coursemap.htm The fairway is pinched back in over the bunker and even if you carried it and managed to stop it before it ran into the rough you still down get the perfect line down the long axis of the green.  The perfect spot to come in from is actually exactly where the fairway bunker on the left of 7 is.  I wonder if that is just a happy coincidence  

Having said all that, it is only an issue downwind when it is impossible to hold the ball on the green.

[Shane Gurnett]

Justin H

I agree with you, to some degree, on 13th Beach. A very uninspiring start but the course improves as you move into the back nine. I agree the par threes areok, with the exception of the 3rd, whcih is an awful hole. A hogsback green that is impsiible to hold and you're hiting a four iron into it? Others like it, but its not my cup of tea.

The sixth at the Dunes is also shocker. You can hit it 50 yards left up onto the bank and it will roll onto the green? Not my idea of a good par three.

The important thing to note about both the Dunes and 13th beach is that they are affordable, and give the punters something different to the norm. Are they great courses, or even very good? For mine, no. But they both serve their purpose.

[Chris Kane]

For what it is, I think The Dunes is fine.  It filled a gap in the market, and allows the average golfer to pay $40 and play a reasonable (nothing special) design in great condition.  In that sense, I think its great.

Individually, very few of the holes do much for me, but as a group it works.  There is something about it that feels right - in the same way Moonah Links (if you want to bag ML, please do it on another thread) doesn't feel right.

17 is a nice par 3, and I thought 8 was good fun with the "bite off what you can chew" concept.  Maybe 13 could be an even better par three if they moved the tee to the left.  There are some ordinary holes, with the most obvious being 1, 6 and 16.

I didn't like six becuase it doesn't demand an exacting shot at all...as Shane said a shot massively pulled often ends up better than the one that is all over the pin during flight.  The hole could improve marginally with the pond being filled in.  The Dunes markets itself as being a links course in the style of the originals from the UK : their motto being "Links Golf is Real Golf," and I'm not an expert, but I can't imagine a pond being there if this course were an original from Britain.  Perhaps those who've been there and played the links courses might be able to explain it better or contradict me.

The comment about it being an original hole is intesting: I'll chip in by saying that poor design is poor design whether its been used once or 100 times.

[David_Elvins]

Chris,

Agree with what you say about the Dunes.  The people they are marketing to can't really tell the difference between good design and good course conditins.  It is a good value for money experience.  

Disagree about the 1st hole, I reckon it is one of the best on the course (though maybe a bit tough for a first hole).

But anyway, what I really wanted to post about was your comment on originality.
I think you always have to give credit for original design.  Whether it works or not, it is always good to see someone pushing the envelope.  And remeber, in all fields of art, people who produce incredibly original work are often not recognised as great for a long time after they produce their work.

[Chris Kane]

David,

A good point about originality, I guess only time will tell with that sixth hole.  I'd be inclined to assume the perception won't change, but I'm very open to being proved otherwise.  Again, one thing that is nice about The Dunes is that it is different.  Something the average guy won't see every day: a change from the parkland course he plays every week.  I don't know of any holes in Melbourne like the 6th...so in that sense, its good: something different.  

Sad to hear they've changed from fringe to rough short of the green: this takes away any interest this hole might have had.

[Shane Gurnett]

At a members information meeting today at Commonwealth, it was confirmed that Tony Cashmore is now on the payroll as the clubs consulting architect. His brief is to oversee the course strategy plan which will issue to the memebrship within the next two months. Further involvement in any design work for the adjoining Pioneer land would also seem a high priority.

This effectively replaces any lingering allegiance the club had to Kevin Hartley who most of you will know was largely responsible for the changes to the course in the early nineties. Cashmores invlovment has to date been low key, how it is pleasing to see that the tree and shrub clearing program continues on at a rapid rate, together with the significant improvment in the fairway conditions. The place is beginning to show some improvement after many years in the doldrums. Many small cypress tress and other non-native varieties are being pulled out.

The interest for many of us now is what impact Cashmore will attempt to leave on the place, or whether it will be, as we are told, simply a case of his minor works being so good it will go unnocticed from now on. I'm encouraged thus far that the small, but significant changes we have seen in the last few months have all been postive, however how much of this Cashmore can take credit for remains to be seen.

I'm certain that any proposed re-design of the existing layout will be fought hard by the members, unless it involves a rehash (and hopefully restoration) of the Hartley damaged holes. Only time will tell.

The other interesting outcome of todays members briefing was that 90% of the time and questions related to the conditioning of the course. This is despite the appointment of Cashmore being one of the potentially most significant issues in the history of the club. I cant say that I was at all surprised.

I hope Tony Cashmore has the best interests of the club at heart.

[Justin_Ryan]

Shane
Do you think there is a problem at Commonwealth that many of the members may actually prefer to play their golf in a botanical garden rather than a sandbelt environment, thereby obstructing any potential renovation?  Or are they being taken out quietly (the trees, not any disagreeable members)?  Certainly one of the members I spoke to in the car park when I was there last loved playing at a club with so many nice trees.

[Shane Gurnett]

Justin

Spot on. I'd say that provided the rose bushes near the clubhouse stay in full bloom, then a few bushes taken off the course will not get noticed by 99% of the members.

Its important to differentiate between the trees and the shrubs/bushes in this discussion. Whenever someone says in my presence that "we must preserve all our wonderful trees", my standard reply is "whats the point when you cannot see any of them because they are smothered by shrubs?". Most people agree with me when I trot that one out.

I am still clinging to the belief that the message is getting through that the overgrowth must be cleaned out. The committee said as much today. The members (including the oldies) are not fussed about the bushes and shrubs. They just dont want the place to be cleared back to nothing. As no one is promoting that view at present, then we should be ok. The best aspect of this is that 99% of the members are focussed solely on the fairways, and have no idea about what is going on beyond the rough lines, which is great. Both sides of the fourth fairway were cleared out last week with barely a comment (apart form a constructive one from myself) as was the removal of those shocking dwarf cypress tress on the left of 11. If this is what Cashmore will bring to the club then the early sides look postive.