Tom Cox Plays Celtic Manor (and Beau Desert as well!)

[David_Tepper]

Writer Tom Cox plays the 2010 course at Celtic Manor and writes about it in this weekend's Financial Times:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/3b0d949a-c069-11df-8a81-00144feab49a.html  

[David_Tepper]

And he played Beau Desert in August: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/17aab202-a9a4-11df-a6f2-00144feabdc0.html

[Matt_Ward]

I played Celtic Manor and frankly have to wonder if what will happen at this year's Ryder Cup matches is simply a Florida-themed course with water on, I believe, no less than 14 holes.

Unfortunately, site selection has little to do with design greatnes. The deepest pockets rule.

Hats off to Wales -- too bad Porthcawl could not have served as host.

[JNC Lyon]

From the article, I gather that neither the architect nor the club know anything about what constitutes great golf course architecture.  "Hemorrhaging golf balls" - that should say it all, shouldn't it?

I guess that aren't enough good courses to choose from in GB&I.

[Ally Mcintosh]

From the article, I gather that neither the architect nor the club know anything about what constitutes great golf course architecture.  "Hemorrhaging golf balls" - that should say it all, shouldn't it?

I guess that aren't enough good courses to choose from in GB&I.

That appears to be a wildly sweeping and uninformed statement about the architect and the club...

Even from that article alone, I can't gather anything of the sort...

[JNC Lyon]

From the article, I gather that neither the architect nor the club know anything about what constitutes great golf course architecture.  "Hemorrhaging golf balls" - that should say it all, shouldn't it?

I guess that aren't enough good courses to choose from in GB&I.

That appears to be a wildly sweeping and uninformed statement about the architect and the club...

Even from that article alone, I can't gather anything of the sort...

I don't know, the statement about the architect being "neat, mathematical" and the club wanting to tear down a beautiful old barn near the property that "impedes the view" were good evidence for me.

Wildly sweeping and uninformed statements are sometimes my specialty, and I probably made one here.  However, I'd like to see a convincing argument that Celtic Manor's championship course has enough good golf course architecture in it to justify hosting a Ryder Cup.  Since I haven't seen Celtic Manor (and I never will), I am very interested to hear others opinions on it.  However, I would like to get the truth about the course and not have people simply try to punch holes in my rhetoric.

[Adam Lawrence]

I can see 'neat and mathematical' as a description of Ross - he does have something of the professor about him. However, I find it pretty hard to see how that translates into any kind of assessment of his abilities as a golf architect.

[JNC Lyon]

I can see 'neat and mathematical' as a description of Ross - he does have something of the professor about him. However, I find it pretty hard to see how that translates into any kind of assessment of his abilities as a golf architect.

Then I suppose the author got it wrong on that one.  Still, I would like to hear more arguments about the golf course architecture at Celtic Manor.  Anyone care to defend or shred the course and its merits?

[Sean_A]

I don't know about you lot, but these are not very good articles on either course - the BD one being especially poor.  Very little info is conveyed. Very little feel for the courses is portrayed.  These are as much about Cox and his mates than anything.  I doubt either article would promt many readers of FT to even bother checking the websites of these courses.

JNC - I too took "neat and mathematical" as phrase not meant to be complimentary.  If I am wrong in that reading, I still question what exactly is meant by it then? 

Ciao    

[Sev K-H Keil]

I understand that the decision of who will host the Ryder Cup is mostly about money and location. However, I'm disappointed that the European side continuously seems to go for American-style courses (Belfry, K-Club, Celtic Manor, Gleneagles, etc.) --- although unrealistic, I would love to see a course like S&A host a Ryder Cup in the future.  It would be great to play on a links course again --- Castle Stuart is too remote, but maybe Doonbeg or Trump Aberdeen will jump on this opportunity...

[Ally Mcintosh]

Incidentally, having visited the course last week, it's worth noting that the infrastructure required for an Open Championship has nothing on what is required for a modern day Ryder Cup...

I know very few existing courses, especially classic ones, that could cope....

However, I would like to get the truth about the course and not have people simply try to punch holes in my rhetoric.

Sorry about that punching John... Having seen the course only briefly, I can't comment on its overall quality as per what you / we would like to play day in, day out... However, seeing as the brief was to build a course to hold the Ryder Cup on the site provided, I think it has probably succeeded admirably...

[David_Tepper]

"but these are not very good articles on either course - the BD one being especially poor."

Sean Arble -

I will admit to being a fan of Tom Cox's writings on golf, mostly because he refuses to treat golf as some sort of sacred, quasi-religious rite.

I would differ with your reaction to his article on Beau Desert. In the article, he uses terms like "just as majestic," "epic feel" and "devilish and picturesque" to describe the course. He quotes one his golf-knowledgeable companions describing the course as "an amazingly well-kept secret."

If those phrases do not tempt the reader to learn more about the course and perhaps want to play there, I am not sure what more he could say in the article to do so. Remember, he is writing in a relatively general interest magazine, not a golf-specific one.

DT      

[JNC Lyon]

Incidentally, having visited the course last week, it's worth noting that the infrastructure required for an Open Championship has nothing on what is required for a modern day Ryder Cup...

I know very few existing courses, especially classic ones, that could cope....

However, I would like to get the truth about the course and not have people simply try to punch holes in my rhetoric.

Sorry about that punching John... Having seen the course only briefly, I can't comment on its overall quality as per what you / we would like to play day in, day out... However, seeing as the brief was to build a course to hold the Ryder Cup on the site provided, I think it has probably succeeded admirably...

Ally,

I suppose any course is deemed "fit for a Ryder Cup" if it has plenty of tent space and a few short 4s and 5s with water in play.  However, shouldn't we ask more of today's clubs, architects, and especially the PGA?  Remember, Celtic Manor is hosting a three-day event once.  How about every other round played there.  The PGA did manage to build a course specifically for the Ryder Cup that also contains great golf course architecture--The Ocean Course at Kiawah Island.  Is it too much to ask that the European venues do the same?

[Eric Smith]

This is Ross McMurray the GCA for the Twenty Ten Course, giving a presentation at the BUDA.


Ross is a super nice gent and I couldn't be more excited for him.  He's spent 11 years working on this design! One of the design attributes to look for in the coverage will be the promenade along the final four holes that is cut into the adjacent hillside along those holes.  At about 4 meters wide it will allow tens of thousands to watch lots of golf from their vantage points.  Something like 45K people will be on property at one time!

And here is a pic where Ross has just agreed to my consulting on his Twenty Twenty design.  We're going to do a Dismal River tribute course on some dunesland in Heemskerk, Holland.

[James Boon]

I too am a fan of Tom Cox and his writing on golf, but then he grew up just down the road from me and only a couple of years ahead of me, so his book Nice Jumper is almost biographical for me!

With that in mind, I think they are both decent articles. He might not go into great detail of the course but I especially like when he finishes off by basically saying that if he'd been good enough to turn pro he would be missing out on playing delightful courses like Beau Desert!

As for the Twenty Ten course, I've not played it, but listening to Ross talk about it really opens your eyes to the challenge he had of creating a course that could cope with a Ryder Cup on that site.

Cheers,

James