A short golf course cannot be too severe

[Philippe Binette]

The thread about the 5600 yards course got me thinking that if the course were shorter, they would never be too severe.

I mean, if a hole is 310 yards long and has a very severe hazard around the green (let's say a 10 foot deep bunker), the hole is short enough that the players could possibly play the hole with extreme prudence by playing shorter shots away from the hazard and still make 4. Let's say a 200 yard drive, a chip with a 7 iron short left of the green, to stay away from the bunker, and another chip and a putt.

So if you had a course of 5700 yards from the tips, could it be too severe ?

[Jud_T]

Phillipe,

You obviously haven't played #2 or #9 at Kingsley....140 yards each of teeth gnashing angst.  I've seen anything from a 2 to a 13 written on the card....by good players.....

[Philippe Binette]

Is that good or bad ?

[Jud_T]

Depends on your point of view as well as how important shooting a medal score is to you...In the case of Kingsley it's a good thing IMHO....

[Adam Clayman]

The HORSE course at Prairie Club proves your point perfectly. The small greens have wild slopes that if on a regulation type course would illicit howls of unfair versus the howls of laughter they currently produce from all the fun. 

[RSLivingston_III]

The thread about the 5600 yards course got me thinking that if the course were shorter, they would never be too severe.

I mean, if a hole is 310 yards long and has a very severe hazard around the green (let's say a 10 foot deep bunker), the hole is short enough that the players could possibly play the hole with extreme prudence by playing shorter shots away from the hazard and still make 4. Let's say a 200 yard drive, a chip with a 7 iron short left of the green, to stay away from the bunker, and another chip and a putt.

So if you had a course of 5700 yards from the tips, could it be too severe ?

Are we talking a course/hole built 80+ years ago, or something built during the period of the current equipment?

[Peter Pallotta]

Phillipe - Adam says there'd be howls of laughter (and I believe that's true for the people he plays with), but I think if you built such a course you'd be playing with fire.  The first time a so-called "good golfer" (the legend in his own mind type) shot a 91 on a 5,700 yard course, the word would get out that the course was 'tricked up' and "designed for beginners".  You'd be right, of course, and your accusers would be wrong, but it might prove small comfort to you and meanwhile they'd live long and happy lives without doubting their first impression of the course even once.

Peter
(On a glass half empty sort of day)  

[Wade Schueneman]

Perhaps Ballybunion Cashen is a good case study.  It is very short, but in a good wind it is quite severe.

[Philippe Binette]

Ok,

I'm not talking about having 15 yards wide fairways with bunkers on each side... I'm more talking that the hazards on a  coursecould be more severe

I would love to see a short course with a lot of teeth... there's definitely some in scotland...

even at 5700 yards... a place like north berwick would be a blast because of the severe hazards

[John Moore II]

Certainly a short golf course could be too severe. Semi-narrow fairways, high rough, deep bunkers and wild, fast greens, sure, it can get to be too much. Tobacco Road supposedly has a slope of 132 from the 'Plow' tees and they are 5886 yards. I would personally say that is a little low. The tough part would be to have a course that short and actually have it be interesting. I mean, it would be hard to build that many short holes and still be good; not saying it can't be done, but today, you'd really have to do something special.

[Philippe Binette]

If I change that word... does it sound better

A short golf course cannot be too sporty !!!!

[Melvyn Morrow]

My own  Plsam Verses 1-18 (or the merits of a short course)

Traditional Walking & Thinking Golf is my game, and I shall not wander.
It give me the peace and tranquillity as I walk the Green fairways
It sometimes takes me to rivers and ponds but never island Greens
The traditional game restores my wellbeing
Allowing me the friendship and fellowship that many seek

Yea, though I walk upon a short course in the shadow of the mid-day Sun
With my Hickory clubs by my side I fear no hazards. My hip flash does comfort me.
My Lunch table is prepared, my hospitality willing shared with the meek who need their carts and distance aids
My mind is calm having honoured golf in the traditional manner and my pint and Single Malt ( make mine a double) chaser awaits refilling.

If my back problems improve and I moved back to St Andrews surely I will find Heaven upon this Earth following in the footsteps of my family and again live in my father home at 6 Pilmour Links.

Melvyn

PS Apologies if I have upset any ones religious beliefs, that was not my intention

[Tom_Doak]

The thread about the 5600 yards course got me thinking that if the course were shorter, they would never be too severe.

I mean, if a hole is 310 yards long and has a very severe hazard around the green (let's say a 10 foot deep bunker), the hole is short enough that the players could possibly play the hole with extreme prudence by playing shorter shots away from the hazard and still make 4. Let's say a 200 yard drive, a chip with a 7 iron short left of the green, to stay away from the bunker, and another chip and a putt.

So if you had a course of 5700 yards from the tips, could it be too severe ?

Philippe:

I have always thought the same thing myself.  In fact, the hole you describe is the sixth at Pacific Dunes [except your deep bunker is on the other side].  However, I've usually settled for just mixing 2-4 holes like that into a regulation 18.

I had a client once who talked of building a 5,700 yard course for an additional 18 holes.  It would have been perfect for women and higher handicappers, and I thought we could make it full of holes like you describe so it would be a blast for the good player, too.  But, that client is pretty much broke at this point, even without building the course -- whether that's a lesson or not, I'm not sure.

[Philippe Binette]

At 5800 yards, it's possible to built a par 70 that has plenty of teeth, 2 or 3 long (420 yards +) par 4 and a bunch of cool short par 4s...

would people take it seriously

it depends, it would be fast to play and fun

[Brian_Ewen]

I would love to see a short course with a lot of teeth... there's definitely some in scotland...

Stonehaven at 5100 yards has plenty of teeth IMO .

[John Moore II]

At 5800 yards, it's possible to built a par 70 that has plenty of teeth, 2 or 3 long (420 yards +) par 4 and a bunch of cool short par 4s...

would people take it seriously

it depends, it would be fast to play and fun

Sure, people might take it seriously, but the site would have to be 'extreme,' so to speak. A flat piece of land in central Alabama or somewhere where you get basically no wind would not yield a fun short course, I do not think. The short holes would be too repetitive and the long ones would be too few and far between to be noticed. However, on a very windy site or a very hilly site a short course could be made and be quite varied. You know, a 310 yard hole that plays into the wind or uphill plays much different than one downwind or downhill. So, in order to build a course this short, you would have to be given an excellent site. Something that would allow for variety. I mean, for the course to be 5800 yards, the holes have to average 322 yards each. If the par was 68, it would be easier, but it it difficult to get that many good, short holes from one site.

[Philippe Binette]

Brian:

never ever underestimate what a great set of greens and great bunkering can do...

even on a flat site it could work.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Painswick!

[Jim Johnson]

This thread and Ran's excellent writeup on Fano Golf Links makes me wonder why a "short" course of 5,500 yards can't be more popular with the public. There's no need for 4 foot square artificial turf mats for tees, or 500 square foot greens, but if, for example (which I'll lead to below) an architect was given a site of some 150 acres, could a great "short" course be safely built within that size constraint, including a practice range, clubhouse, parking lot, irrigation reservoir, and maintenance facility. And I'm not talking 20 yard wide fairways, or fairways crossing over one another ala St. Andrews. I would like to think wide fairways, interesting green complexes, and strategic bunkering could all be part of the mix.

I've been working with Jeff Mingay for some time attempting to create a course on a property which, while consisting of 1000+ acres, has "pockets" of areas separated by large tracts of trees. One of the most visually striking areas is about 150 acres, and while not large enough to provide all that's desired for a 6,800 yard golf course, one wonders if a great 5,500 yard course, complete with a couple of par-5's, couldn't be created on the site. But, being a business opportunity above all else, would the public welcome the chance to play on such a course? Three hour rounds and a fun factor of 110% wouldn't hurt 

JJ

[Sean_A]

There is absolutely no doubt in mind that a great 5500 yard can be built.  Indeed, once we eliminate the concept of challenging the best players which is ironic because most of the courses with stupendous length don't challenge the best players anyway) I can't see any reason why building courses of this length to say 6000 yards couldn't have a large appeal if the green fee were priced right or as a second course on a property or even as the shining example of good design in an area of poor courses. 

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Sean,

I agree that a great 5500 yarder can be built.  I don't agree that there'd be a big demand for it unfortunately (particularly in the U.S.).  Even though it might be the best thing for juniors, women and high handicappers (more fun, less cost and time), most folks on this side of the pond have been brainwashed that bigger is better in almost everything (golf courses, cars, food portions, political rhetoric)....

[Phil McDade]

Boat of Garten, in the central Highlands of Scotland, is a terrific inland course that plays at slightly more than 5,600 yards from the daily yellow tees (not quite 5,900 yds from the tips):

http://www.boatgolf.com/course/scorecard

It used to play slightly shorter, with a par of 69, but the course expanded the 13th hole, moved the green back a bit, and turned a longish par 4 (for that course) into a gambling par 5. The course is best known for its great assortment of par 4s, in all manner of size and strategy, from the nifty 10th hole (271 yards) to a tough closer at the 18th at 437 yards. The course, a Braid original, is well-known in Scotland for being a tough test of golf -- it's carved out of a silver birch forest, and features pretty tight fairways and small greens usually well-protect by fronting bunkers. The terrain is hilly but not severe. I'm not sure why more courses aren't built like this in the U.S.

Dozens of pictures here:

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Scotland/Boat%20of%20Garten/index.htm

[Phil McDade]

I would love to see a short course with a lot of teeth... there's definitely some in scotland...

Stonehaven at 5100 yards has plenty of teeth IMO .

Agreed!

[Bill Brightly]

Perhaps Ballybunion Cashen is a good case study.  It is very short, but in a good wind it is quite severe.

BB Cashen is a PERFECT example, especially if you are talking about how the course plays for a mid-to-high handicapper and almost all women. I am a 4 handicap and once I stop being annoyed about playing target golf on a links course, I can handle the Cashen course fairly easily if the wind is two clubs or less. However,  most of the approaches require near-perfect shots and are impossible to recover from if you miss.  I just returned home and my mid-handicap friend our our wives HATED the course. I can't tell you how many time they ended up at the bottom of a 60 foot rise and had to hit a shot off hard pan dead up hill to a firm green. Invariably, they would go back and forth across the green before giving up (unless I got my foot in the way and they didn't see it...) Forget about the wind...even on a dead calm day, most players can't hit the shots required at this course.

The Cashen site is stunning and I can't help but wonder if a great course could have been built, or if the dunes are simply too severe.

Fano sounds really cool and I trust Ran's opinion that it is nothing like Cashen, even though the dunes on both courses sound similar.