Who designed Shawnee?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Tillinghast told us precisely what "experience" he had prior to Shawnee...we dont' have to speculate...we have his exact descriptive words.   He said;

"I was invited to run out to Frankford, a suburb of Philadelphia where at that time golf had yet to be introduced. Selecting the most available ground, I laid out a rather crude course, using for holes, tin cans which had once contained French peas. With a group of curious, skeptical citizens around me I next proceeded to demonstrate the various strokes to the best of my ability until one of the spectators expressed a desire to try his hand at it…”

 Does that sound like golf course architecture to you?  

Why do you think Tillinghast never gave credit to Worthington for Shawnee's design if the owner had something to do with it?

More importantly, why do you think Worthington hired an inexperienced, unproven, no-account son-of-a-rubber-salesman, rank amateur to design his landmark course in 1910?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Tillinghast told us precisely what "experience" he had prior to Shawnee...we dont' have to speculate...we have his exact descriptive words.   He said;

"I was invited to run out to Frankford, a suburb of Philadelphia where at that time golf had yet to be introduced. Selecting the most available ground, I laid out a rather crude course, using for holes, tin cans which had once contained French peas. With a group of curious, skeptical citizens around me I next proceeded to demonstrate the various strokes to the best of my ability until one of the spectators expressed a desire to try his hand at it…”

 Does that sound like golf course architecture to you?  

Why do you think Tillinghast never gave credit to Worthington for Shawnee's design if the owner had something to do with it?

More importantly, why do you think Worthington hired an inexperienced, unproven, no-account son-of-a-rubber-salesman, rank amateur to design his landmark course in 1910?

Mike
At best it sounds like a very crude form of golf architecture. So would you agree Tilly was misleading when he referred to himself the Dean of American golf architects based on his 1890s work?

In his first article after the completion of Shawnee Tilly didn't even give himself credit for designing the course (he emphasized his construction role). In that article he did however say the two men first went over the site together.

Landmark course? Why would you say that?

Why Worthington chose Tilly to oversee the construction of Shawnee deserves further investigation IMO. Perhaps the answer can be found in the Tillinghast biography. Do you have the book?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

As usual you state your BELIEFS as if they are accepted FACTS. Unfortunately for you, everyone of the supposed "facts" that you to believe so are WRONG.

"At best it sounds like a very crude form of golf architecture. So would you agree Tilly was misleading when he referred to himself the Dean of American golf architects based on his 1890s work?"

On what FACTS do you base this statement? On what Facts do you ascribe that Tilly referred to himself as the Dean of American BORN ( if you're goping to state something as fact you can at least get the quote correct) golf architects" and that he did so because of his "rudimentary golf course" he designed and taught the game on in 1898? By the way, how many holes did this "course" have? WHY DID TILLY LAY IT OUT? HOW LONG DID IT LAST?

"In his first article after the completion of Shawnee Tilly didn't even give himself credit for designing the course (he emphasized his construction role). In that article he did however say the two men first went over the site together."

That statement is so wrong it is beyond stupid. You are refering to the 1914 Country Life article which was definitely NOT the "first" article that Tilly wrote about the course "after the course was completed." All you have to do is go through this thread and you'll find NUMEROUS references to articles that Tilly wrote describing the design of Shawnee AFTER it was built including one that I posted where he called HIMSELF the ARCHITECT of Shawnee, all of which he clearly states his role as the deigner and all qwritten before that article that YOU have declared as being first.

"Why Worthington chose Tilly to oversee the construction of Shawnee deserves further investigation IMO. Perhaps the answer can be found in the Tillinghast biography. Do you have the book?"

Worthington chose Tilly to both DESIGN and oversee the construction of the course. Again you are ascribing to Worthington the DESIGN of the course WITHOUT PROVIDING ONE SINGLE PIECE OF PROOF!

Once again, contact Shawnee and ask to examine the records. The proof of what happened can be found in them. Of course, you won't do that, all you'll do is argue based upin what YOU want to believe happened and NOT on what actually did.

And to answer your question, no, the answer as to why Worthington chose Tilly to design and coversee the cconstruction is not found in the biography.

Two other things... Worthington did not DESIOGN the Buckwood Inn. He hired architects and engineeers to do that. He told them that he wanted the building constructed out of cement and hollow tiles so that it would be fireproof. Design it? No, that was beyond his skills, talented man that he may have been. Also, you can wait until next May to read about the "other two courses" in the area that you state that Worthington designed. Some pretty interesting information has been found about them as well...

[TEPaul]

Philip:

R.S. Worthington!?

Who was that? Was he C.C. Worthington's son perhaps?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

R.S. Worthington was Worthington's son Reginald, one of three. He was a pretty good golfer in his own right yet not talented at all in business as his two brothers also weren't. They were the demise of several enterpirses their father began and turned over to them, including the Worthington Mower Company. I have a neat picture of it being torn down after it went out of business...

[TEPaul]

Thanks.

I asked because I saw his name while researching something else entirely. He obviously was a very good player. He was the first person to beat Quimet after his 1913 US Open victory.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

As usual you state your BELIEFS as if they are accepted FACTS. Unfortunately for you, everyone of the supposed "facts" that you to believe so are WRONG.

"At best it sounds like a very crude form of golf architecture. So would you agree Tilly was misleading when he referred to himself the Dean of American golf architects based on his 1890s work?"

On what FACTS do you base this statement? On what Facts do you ascribe that Tilly referred to himself as the Dean of American BORN ( if you're goping to state something as fact you can at least get the quote correct) golf architects" and that he did so because of his "rudimentary golf course" he designed and taught the game on in 1898? By the way, how many holes did this "course" have? WHY DID TILLY LAY IT OUT? HOW LONG DID IT LAST?

Didn't Tom Bendelow and CB Macdonald lay out golf courses prior to 1898? I think Willie Park Jr. laid out real courses in America in 1898. Is that claim misleading?

"In his first article after the completion of Shawnee Tilly didn't even give himself credit for designing the course (he emphasized his construction role). In that article he did however say the two men first went over the site together."

That statement is so wrong it is beyond stupid. You are refering to the 1914 Country Life article which was definitely NOT the "first" article that Tilly wrote about the course "after the course was completed." All you have to do is go through this thread and you'll find NUMEROUS references to articles that Tilly wrote describing the design of Shawnee AFTER it was built including one that I posted where he called HIMSELF the ARCHITECT of Shawnee, all of which he clearly states his role as the deigner and all qwritten before that article that YOU have declared as being first.

Who said anything about a 1914 Country Life article? I was referring to a 1914 County Club Life article. What earlier article are you referring to, when was it written, and where in the article does Tilly claim he designed the course?

"Why Worthington chose Tilly to oversee the construction of Shawnee deserves further investigation IMO. Perhaps the answer can be found in the Tillinghast biography. Do you have the book?"

Worthington chose Tilly to both DESIGN and oversee the construction of the course. Again you are ascribing to Worthington the DESIGN of the course WITHOUT PROVIDING ONE SINGLE PIECE OF PROOF!

Once again, contact Shawnee and ask to examine the records. The proof of what happened can be found in them. Of course, you won't do that, all you'll do is argue based upin what YOU want to believe happened and NOT on what actually did.

And to answer your question, no, the answer as to why Worthington chose Tilly to design and coversee the cconstruction is not found in the biography.

I've read your biography, and your speculation in that book. You said Worthington and Tilly discussed building a course there as early as 1907. What is that based on?

Two other things... Worthington did not DESIOGN the Buckwood Inn. He hired architects and engineeers to do that. He told them that he wanted the building constructed out of cement and hollow tiles so that it would be fireproof. Design it? No, that was beyond his skills, talented man that he may have been. Also, you can wait until next May to read about the "other two courses" in the area that you state that Worthington designed. Some pretty interesting information has been found about them as well...

Who was the architect?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom the Mac,

Once again you deflect and don't answer anything asked of you!

I asked, "On what FACTS do you base this statement? On what Facts do you ascribe that Tilly referred to himself as the Dean of American BORN ( if you're goping to state something as fact you can at least get the quote correct) golf architects" and that he did so because of his "rudimentary golf course" he designed and taught the game on in 1898? By the way, how many holes did this "course" have? WHY DID TILLY LAY IT OUT? HOW LONG DID IT LAST?"

Your "answer" to it has NOTHING whatsoever to do with YOUR claim that Tilly CALLED himself something BASED upon something he did in 1898. It answers NONE of the peripheral questions about the "course" in fact it is a statement that is bizarre. It is an answer to some question, but most certainly none that I asked.

"Who said anything about a 1914 Country Life article? I was referring to a 1914 County Club Life article. What earlier article are you referring to, when was it written, and where in the article does Tilly claim he designed the course?"

Is THAT the best you can do? I left out the word "Club" and you're taking me to task for it? Grow up there especially when you know what was meant. Once again, it is a DEFLECTION because I stated that the articles are already in this thread and are in DIRECT RESPONSE to statements and questions you made during it. Go lookmthem up because you know where they are.

"I've read your biography, and your speculation in that book. You said Worthington and Tilly discussed building a course there as early as 1907. What is that based on?"

"For one who has claimed to have "read a great deal on this subject" you sure seem to miss a lot! Here is another one uou can go look up because it is from several sources including Tilly himself! By the way, how about a hint that will show you the answer? Where was Tilly own a summer residence in 1907 and who would purchase it from him in 1908?

"Who was the architect?"

That is the easiest answer of all. Why it can be found on the same piece of paper as the answer to the question "Who was the engineer?" It is clearly printed on the DESIGN DRAWINGS for the Buckwood Inn. That's another one that you can go fnd and read. I'm not doing your legwork for you as all you want is to argue and have no interest in the actual facts. I will do you the common courtesy of suggesting that you start at the SAME place that I did, in PERSON, at the Monroe County Historical Society....

Now, answer my questions otherwise you prove that all you want to do is argue...

[Tom MacWood]

I don't know why Tilly laid out the rudimentary course or how long it lasted, and I don't really care.

I asked you four questions and you didn't answer any of them, which is par for the course. Here is a link to a brief biography on Worthington. His obit in the NY Times is fascinating as well. It is a shame you have chosen to bury his story.

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/o/r/H-R-Worthington/BOOK-0001/0006-0001.html

[Phil_the_Author]

Sorry Tom,

But I did answer your questions, and unlike you, did so quite specifically. I stated that the answers were already posted in this thread. By doing that I showed that anyone who desires to see them can find them, and quite simply too. You though, as usual refuse to accept that you are simply wrong.

I am not "BURYING" Worthington's story as you put it. I am telling the TRUTH about what actually happened and not MAKING history up as you appear to be doing based SOLELY on what you BELIEVE happened.

You, despite being called on by numerous people on this thread and once again by me in my previous post and which YOU PARRED YOUR OWN COURSE by ignoring once again, simply have yet to produce a SINGLE piece of FACT that states that Worthington designed the golf course... NOTHING.

By the way, you already know that I have his NY Times obituary because earlier in this thread I referred to what it ACTUALLY stated.

Thank you for that "link" but it is worthless to me. I happen to have a copy of the MANUSCRIPT of an in-depth biography of C.C. Worthington written by his son and grandson. I also have several other far more in-depth brief biographies of him some that were written while he was alive and some immedioately after his death. In addition to that I have several books written at the tiome that Worthington arrived in Pa. and Shawnee that tell that story from their perspective incl;uding those who actually SOLD HIM THE PROPERTY! On top of all of that I happen to also have several hun dred newspaper accounts that deal with all of the events of Shawnee, Buckwood Park, Worthington State Park, the golf course, Worthington Mowers and much, much more...

I am quite sure I know and understand Worthington, his businesses and his family's history a whole lot more than you do....

What you are attempting to do with Worthington at Shawnee is what Ron Whitten did with Joseph Burbeck and Bethpage. The damage done by Whitten to Burbeck's true legacy is monumental as a great man who did an incredible work will never be rememberred for that. You sully Worthington's legacy by your proclamations of what you "believe" he must have done because what he actually did accomplish during those years was far more important and lasting than the building of the golf course. You can read about it next May and you'll then reralize that the chapter titled "Worthington's Vision" isn't burying a thing about what an amazing man accomplished.

So Tom, how about answering the questions you were asked:

1- On what FACTS do you base this statement? On what Facts do you ascribe that Tilly referred to himself as the Dean of American BORN ( if you're going to state something as fact you can at least get the quote correct) golf architects" and that he did so because of his "rudimentary golf course" he designed and taught the game on in 1898?

2- When will you provide even a SINGLE piece of factual evidence that Worthington designed the Shawnee golf course?

By the way, before you're tempted to call me a liar again as to what I claim to have, here's the cover to one of the manuscripts, this one written by his grandson...

[Mike Cirba]

Nice work, Phil...

[TEPaul]

I agree---nice work Phil. But I really don't understand why you are going to such lengths to try to continue dealing with Tom MacWood's largely irrelevent questions.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil,

I hate to jump in this late, and may have missed something, but I have a question.  What is the meaning of AWT being the club secretary and having had the links planned and built under his direction?  (according to the header in that linked article)

Did he have a contract for design, or did he agree to be part of the club in part to obtain the position of designer? 

Just curious, as things in those early days often happened way different than they might today.  Thanks.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jeff,

Those are good questions and well worth asking. In order to appreciate what happened one must understand what the Shawnee CC is and what it isn't. Originally the Manwalamink GC was formed by Worthington in 1900 and the only members were his LOCAL friends, and by local I mean within a day's driving distance. That is actually part of the reason and story as to why Tilly was given the commission because he summered in Shawnee and actually owned a house just a short distance from Worthington's. Mrs. Worthington bought his house from him in 1908 for a very interesting reason which you'll have to read in the book about and is one of those pesky little things that C.C. Worthington would be involved in which would make it impossioble for him to have any active role in designing either course or Inn as Tom insists.

With the coming of the Inn and the golf course, and it is the reason behind why he built it in the first place, Worthington was now able to have a golf club where members could live anywhere in the country and even overseas if they wanted. He built the entire facility so that his friends and business acquaintances could enjoy the paradise that he had found. He believed that it was the perfect place to bring together the captains of industry and business leaders to meet and discuss global and regional issues and help improve life for everyone as a reult from the owners down to the workers.

So for many years the membership of the club and the guests who stayed at and in a number of cases summered at the Inn were of this class and calibre. In August of 1910 the Manwalamink Golf Club closed and reformed as the Shawnee Country Club with the new golf course as its home course when it opened in May of 1911.

This club was to run as all important ones did and so the board of directors installed Tilly as the Club Secretary. He was also the CHAIRMAN of the GREEN COMMITTEE and the constituition of the club assigned the oversight of the design and building of the golf course SPECIFICALLY to this committee. One name lacking as NOT being a member of that committee? C.C. Worthington!

So there is unquestionable proof in the Board minutes and constitution besides other documents and written material that Tilly designed and built the course.

Now because Worthington wanted the Shawnee Country Club to be invovled as an entity in the golf course, the constitution made the Club responsible for the day-to-day care and maintenance of the golf course and not that of the Inn. So as you can see there is a unique relationship here.

As  a means of garnering the new members that Worthington desired he had Tilly prepare the advertising brochure that can be seen in full on the Tillinghast Association website. The heading under the title states that he designed and built it and adds in parentheses that he is also Secretary of the Club. It doesn't mean that "AS Secretary of the Club Mr. Tillinghast..." but rather that "Mr. Tillinghast Designed and built and happens to also be the Secretary of the Club..."

"Did he have a contract for design?" Yes he did.

"Did he agree to be a part of the club in part to obtain the position of designer?" No he didn't because he was already a member of the Manwalamink Golf Club and so was automatically one of the new Shawnee CC when it changed over. Understand the history here. Tilly spent a good deal of time playing with all of the Worthington's from the late 1800's onward. They knew him BEFORE they made the move to Shawnee and specifically considered having him design a course that they hoped would attract many important people as members would aid the vision that C.C. Worthington had of establishing a center for business and even political discussions.

[TEPaul]

Jeffrey:

I really don't know the significance of a golf course architect also being appointed the secretary of a club at its inception but interestingly Devereux Emmet was also appointed the secretary of a club he designed a course for. In Emmet's case, and perhaps somewhat unbelievably, he was appointed the secretary of the Womens National GC that he designed the course for. I say somewhat unbelievably because the membership of the club was exclusively women. The founder of that club was Marion Hollins, the same woman who a few years later would essentially found Cypress Point GC and who was responsible for creating its membership.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Let me clear this up for you & Jeff as I may have written it less than clear. Tilly was the appointed Club Secretary of the new Shawnee CC partly because he was the EXISTING Club Secretary of the Manwalamink GC at the time of the changeover. In addition, Tilly would be appointed President of the Shawnee CC in 1914.

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
Perhaps you should re-read the thread from beginning to end one more time. This is what I wrote originally:

Phil-the-author, TEP, Mike and others have suggested Shawnee was a solo Tilly design. I have read quite a bit on the subject and I don't recall seeing anything that suggested that. Are there articles, internal documents or some other source that proves this?

Does that sound like I'm suggesting I have fact to support Worthington collaborating with Tilly? Have I ever suggested I have facts to support a Worthington-Tilly collaboration? Have you presented internal documents that prove Tilly Shawnee was a solo design?

What I have said from the beginning is that under the circumstances - Tilly being inexperienced, Worthington having designed prior golf courses, Worthington designing the clubhouse, the two men walking the site initially together, Tilly emphasizing his construction roll in several publications - that it is likely the two men collaborated.

You did not answer my questions: Is Tilly's claim of being the Dean of American (or American born) architects misleading? What about CBM, Emmet, George O'Neil to name a few all designed full length legitimate golf courses around or before the turn of the century and were still active well into the 1920s. You said in your biography the two men (Worthington and Tilly) discussed building a golf course as early as 1907. What is the source for that? Who designed the Buckwood Inn...what was the man's name?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil,

Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed explanation. I know you have better things to do with your time than answer our questions endlessly, and I do appreciate it.

TMac,

I know Phil is frustrated, and I am somewhat by a post that says you have no facts to support Worthington collaborating with Tilly and also saying that it is likely that he did in the same paragraph.  Since I stopped counting at a dozen, and Phil and others have provided other documentation saying and also suggesting via inference that Tilly did design the course, I wonder why you keep pounding on a probably insignifigant point.  The only value on the length of this thread is that more stuff continues to come out.

I am interested in the possibility that Tillie (as gca's are prone to do) may have exagerated his position by calling himself the dean of American Born architects.  Just a bit of advertising and promotion?  Perhaps, but the long term results certainly proved him at least mostly right, didn't they?

[TEPaul]

"Phil
Perhaps you should re-read the thread from beginning to end one more time. This is what I wrote originally:
Phil-the-author, TEP, Mike and others have suggested Shawnee was a solo Tilly design."



Tom MacWood:

When or where have I ever suggested Shawnee was a solo Tilly design? You've always had an interesting way of putting words in peoples' mouths they never remotely said! 

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom the Mac,

I don't have to read what you wrote in your opening post. All you are doing on here and the prior threads where you brought up this crap simply to argue is cast unsupoported suppositions and then demand that others produce facts.

Your opening statement "Phil-the-author, TEP, Mike and others have suggested Shawnee was a solo Tilly design. I have read quite a bit on the subject and I don't recall seeing anything that suggested that. Are there articles, internal documents or some other source that proves this?" is WRONG on its face and you know it!

I have NEVER SUGGESTED that and you know it. I have flat out stated it to be FACT and you know that as well. You keep ignoring the documents and articles written by Tillinghast himself that have been quoted from by myself and others NUMEROUS times throughout this thread, including the article where TILLINGHAST HIMSELF wrote "I am the architect of Shawnee."

No Tom, I will not produce any internal documents for you. Even you aren't that assininely stupid at this point to think that I don't have them as all others accept that I do because of the book I am writing for Shawnee.

You have the ARROGANCE to post a "link" to a page of minimal biographical information on C.C. Worthington that is a mere nothing as if I need the information and then when I post the cover to but ONE of the manuscripts that are in my possession and that is authored by his grandson you don't even mention anything about it because you see how stupid your vain attempt to appear knowledgeable on this subject failed.

You lost any opportunity for me to "share" anything of that nature a while back because of your low-class and baseless actions and accusations toward me. I once again suggest that you call Shawnee and ask for permission to see their records and documents. Hell Tom, if you went there TOMORROW you would be able to get a good look at many of them because they will be on PUBLIC DISPLAY during an all-day media event being done as a kick-off to the anniversary celebrations next May. Of course you would face the possibility that you might run into me and have to suffer the indignity of ME SHOWING THEM TO YOU!

No, you don't really want to learn the truth. Consider, if you really were even a fraction of the researcher that you think you are, how then could you, who makes the claim that, "I have read quite a bit on the subject and I don't recall seeing anything that suggested that..." not be EMBARRASSED when the writings of Tillinghast himself say over and over that he did it including (one more time in case you simply can't process this quote from his Hazard article) where he wrote "I am the ARCHITECT of SHAWNEE" and yet have missed these?

No Tom, you were and are aware of what Tillinghast wrote; what you are doing is showing your pettiness in arguing the unarguable and doing so simply to annoy and harrass . Its like once again demanding the NAME of the architect of the Buckwood Inn. Go to Shawnee tomorrow or any other day and ask to look at the original plans or don't embarrass yourself by doing that because after all of this crap they just might say no to you and go to the Monroe County Historical Society and ask to see the Buckwood Inn files. You'll find the answer there. I did it... so you can do it too.

Finally, you have some set of something to state to me "You did not answer my questions." I did and I have. It is YOU who keep ignoring questions as they are repeatedly asked of you over and over. So for the THIRD TIME I aske:

"On what Facts do you ascribe that Tilly referred to himself as the Dean of American BORN ( if you're going to state something as fact you can at least get the quote correct) golf architects" and that he did so because of his "rudimentary golf course" he designed and taught the game on in 1898?"

Where has it ever been recorded that it was TILLINGHAST who made the statement that he was the "Dean of American born golf architects?" In all of your "voluminous readings" you must know the answer to that since you stated it as FACT to Mike Cirba earlier on this thread, "Mike, At best it sounds like a very crude form of golf architecture. So would you agree Tilly was misleading when he referred to himself the Dean of American golf architects based on his 1890s work?" And again as FACT when you also stated to Mike Cirba on this thread, "I take it you believe Tilly was involved in some misinformation or embellishment when he referred to himself as the Dean of American golf architects."

You even stated it as FACT to me, "I am interested in the possibility that Tillie (as gca's are prone to do) may have exagerated his position by calling himself the dean of American Born architects.  Just a bit of advertising and promotion?"

So once again Tom, WHERE and WHEN did TILLINGHAST ever make that claim?

No Jeff, I am no longer frustrated by Tom the Macwood. I wish I could find him amusing; unfortunately it is even hard to pity him at this point.

Tom, when you are finally ready to actually DISCUSS things and present a single FACT to back up your statements as quoted above, I will then be more than happy to answer questions and guess what, I just might even show some stuff on here that will surprise you... might if you can ask it the right way...

I almost forgot... One reason for going to Shawnee tomorrow is that there will be family members of each of the four owners of the Inn including some of the WORTHINGTON'S! Ask them directly what happened and then demand that they show you the documents when it disagrees with what you "believe" must have happened...

[TEPaul]

"......you don't even mention anything about it because you see how stupid your vain attempt to appear knowledgeable on this subject failed."



No, Philip, I don't believe you or any of us can assume that Tom MacWood sees THAT and I'm afraid THAT is the real problem with both him and these kind of threads he starts and then drones on endlessly page after page after page!

[Tom MacWood]

Phil,

Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed explanation. I know you have better things to do with your time than answer our questions endlessly, and I do appreciate it.

TMac,

I know Phil is frustrated, and I am somewhat by a post that says you have no facts to support Worthington collaborating with Tilly and also saying that it is likely that he did in the same paragraph.  Since I stopped counting at a dozen, and Phil and others have provided other documentation saying and also suggesting via inference that Tilly did design the course, I wonder why you keep pounding on a probably insignifigant point.  The only value on the length of this thread is that more stuff continues to come out.

I am interested in the possibility that Tillie (as gca's are prone to do) may have exagerated his position by calling himself the dean of American Born architects.  Just a bit of advertising and promotion?  Perhaps, but the long term results certainly proved him at least mostly right, didn't they?

You're right I should be more understanding of Phil's feelings, we all should be, he is very sensitive and prone to drama queen episodes now and again. I understand Ran has a boat load of emails to prove this. I had no idea that suggesting Worthington may have assisted Tilly would create such a furor, after all this is a discussion group, and I continue to think it is a distinct possibility. Sue me.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I didn't mean to say anything about Phil's feelings and how you should handle them. I am really noodling on how this thread fits in the general ethics and customs of this and other discussion boards, by posting a thesis with no basis in historic fact, being proven wrong and still declaring it an open question?  I would concede the original question in your thread to possibly be valid and worthy of discussion if you had read certain articles suggesting Worthington was co-designer, even if you apparently over stated the amount you had read on the subject. I certainly question your interpretation on this one, if not your intent, given 275 replies and 99% of us believing its a settled question. 

I grant you, that while I love gca history like you do, I am more taker than giver in these discussions. I appreciate those like Phil who research and put history in coherent fashion, and I appreciate all who post documents here, including you over the years, for us to read and interpret.  At this point, its just a low reward situation for most of us, or at least me, since I don't wish to speak for Phil or others.

[Tom MacWood]

You did not answer my questions: Is Tilly's claim of being the Dean of American (or American born) architects misleading? What about CBM, Emmet, George O'Neil to name a few all designed full length legitimate golf courses around or before the turn of the century and were still active well into the 1920s. You said in your biography the two men (Worthington and Tilly) discussed building a golf course as early as 1907. What is the source for that? Who designed the Buckwood Inn...what was the man's name?

Phil
I think we all understand why you are not answering these simple questions....no need to write a bloody manifesto.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Enlighten me. I don't understand why he isn't answering these simple questions. In fact, I thought he already answered them multiple times.  Of what are you speaking?

Thanks.