Who designed Shawnee?

[Ian Larson]

I just looked at this for the first to in a week. There was absolutely nothing in that article that hinted at Tilly being assisted with the design. But it did only prove even more that Tilly was the lone designer. It's not even worth my time to post it. I don't understand why TMacwood can't post it himself. I'm not wasting my time. If there's something in there it would have been posted by now by the guys that want it posted.

[DMoriarty]

I just looked at this for the first to in a week. There was absolutely nothing in that article that hinted at Tilly being assisted with the design. But it did only prove even more that Tilly was the lone designer. It's not even worth my time to post it. I don't understand why TMacwood can't post it himself. I'm not wasting my time. If there's something in there it would have been posted by now by the guys that want it posted.

Are you kidding me?   Post the article.  You said you would.   

[Ian Larson]

No Mr. Moriarty I am certainly not kidding you. As I recall you also volunteered to post the article so have at it. Or just tell the guy who has it and is presenting it as some type of evidence to just do it himself. I'm only checking in on this thread weekly to see if anything of significance is ever brought to the table showing anything at all that Tilly didn't design Shawnee. So besides the article I'm not wasting time on the thread.

[DMoriarty]

Ian Larson,

You are a class act.

_________________________________________

Tom MacWood,

Email me the damn thing and I'll post it.  

[Ian Larson]

This is hilarious. Between the two of you neither has managed to post Exhibit A after an entire week. Someone wake me up when these guys get a case together.

[TEPaul]

Ian Larson:

You have conducted yourself admirably in the context of these two confabulators. We need many more on this website like you!

[Tom MacWood]

Phil-the-author, TEP, Mike and others have suggested Shawnee was a solo Tilly design. I have read quite a bit on the subject and I don't recall seeing anything that suggested that. Are there articles, internal documents or some other source that proves this?

Ian
How many times do you have to be told if I knew the answer of who did what this thread would have a different title? I am asking the question. And you obviously don't have the answer because the only thing you have brought to the table is a bad attitude. Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed...again...

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Good morning. 

You did ask a question, but also implied others, including Tillie's biographer, had it wrong.  Additionally, you claimed to have much material contradicting the long held notion of Tillie the designer.  Yet, you have provided nothing to back up your claims.  If you have read a lot of other articles suggesting Tillie was NOT the solo designer, is it too much to ask for you to post them, summarize them, etc?

I remind you that the score is 11-0 in favor of Tillie based on documents produced.  12-0 if Ian Larson's read on the article you suggest he post is correct.   We are only suggesting you do the Fox News thing - fair and balanced - if you have some info.  If not, then this is even a bigger waste of time than we know.

Is asking a loaded question fair play?  You remind me of what my father called and was - an "agitator".  He and mom would ask the pastor to dinner and then he peppered him with all sorts of obtuse questions, like "Do you think Jesus was made of rubber?  The bible tells the story of him tying his ass to a tree and then walking a mile into town."  As you can imagine, the pastor stopped coming to dinner at some point, and mom was a good cook!

[TEPaul]

Mr. Jeffrey Sir:

Forget about the Tille architect attribution of Shawnee. I want to hear more about this story of Jesus tying his ass to a tree and then walking a mile into town. Do you think he walked into town with the tree tied to his ass or did he slip the knot somehow? And if you have any info on why he tied his ass to a tree I'd like to know more about that too. Do you think there are any old newspaper articles about it in like the Brooklyn Eagle or maybe the Boston Globe?  Do you think the town he walked into was anywhere near Shawnee or maybe Ardmore Pa (Merion East) or South Hamilton Mass (Myopia) or Roslyn LI (North Shore GC)? I'm sure you can understand why I ask----eg maybe Tom MacWood should give Jesus some of the attribution he really deserves as the designer of some pretty good early American golf course architecture if he was in the vicinity!!

And last but by no means least----do you think Jesus was a tree hugger or would he be for comprehensive tree removal?

[DMoriarty]

This is hilarious. Between the two of you neither has managed to post Exhibit A after an entire week. Someone wake me up when these guys get a case together.

Ian Larson,

A week ago, after multiple posts berating Tom MacWood for not posting the article, you wrote:  "Thanks for sending me the Country Club Life article from 1915. Im on the road and wont be able to post it until later tonight or this weekend."

Last night you announced that despite your word to the contrary you were refusing to post it.    Then, as if to confirm your own lack of character, you played it off as if someone other than you has been behaving ridiculously.  Again, you are a class act.  

Perhaps Tom MacWood had not found someone else to post the article because he was foolish enough to think you were a man of your word?  If so, this was obviously a mistake on on his part.

As for me, I have no "case" to "make."  I'd like to see the facts out there for all to see.  

Here are the two pages of the Country Life Article that TomM sent me this morning.   Tom, it appears as if the article continues on past the 2nd page.  If there was another email with more of the article I did not receive it.

[Ian Larson]

Dmoriarty

I'm a young single guy living in Southern California. I spent my weekend getting sidetracked from GCA surfing in Malibu and playing beach volleyball with tan vixens in string bikinis. I apologize for having a life outside of GCA and posting golf articles from 1914. I guess I'll have to live with myself for not doing so. The real question remains as to why Macwood couldn't just do it himself? Or you for that matter if you saw I hadn't done it?

[DMoriarty]

Dmoriarty

I'm a young single guy living in Southern California. I spent my weekend getting sidetracked from GCA surfing in Malibu and playing beach volleyball with tan vixens in string bikinis. I apologize for having a life outside of GCA and posting golf articles from 1914. I guess I'll have to live with myself for not doing so. The real question remains as to why Macwood couldn't just do it himself? Or you for that matter if you saw I hadn't done it?

I too have plenty to do outside of GCA and am subject to many of the same Southern California opportunities and some actual responsibilities as well. But my word means something, and when I give it I do my best to keep it. And I certainly don't scoff at others who rely on my word to their detriment.  Nice weather  is no excuse to behave like a jerk.  Even if it was, until yesterday it has been cool and cloudy at the beach.

The reason I did not pester MacWood to send me the article so I could post it was because HE HAD SENT IT TO YOU AND YOU INDICATED YOU WOULD POST IT.   It never occurred to me that you would be so rude as to get the article from MacWood so that you could post it, tell us you would post it, and then not only refuse to post but also try to mock us for relying on your word.  I figured you must have been busy.

As for TomMacWood, it makes no difference why he couldn't post it.  You said you would.  TomM has always posted articles using a method which is apparently no longer available, and he must not know how to post using an outside host or he does not have a website on which to store his documents.

[Mike Cirba]

David and ian,

I can only speak for myself but I can't help feel that most here would be very appreciative if either of you would be so kind as to drive over to malibu beach and take some photos of the lovely scenery and post those here instead of the freakinf country life article.

I'm just saying....

[Joe Bausch]

Tinypic should be your friend if you need a free site to host your pic/article.  EXTREMELY easy.  Go here:

http://www.tinypic.com/

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Thanks for that.  Frankly, I wish TMac would post or quote some of the things he has read that suggest that Tillie was not the sole designer, if he has them.

Mike,

Exactly what do you mean by "scenery?"

[Ian Larson]

Last night on the Daily Show Jon Stewart announced his October 30, Washington D.C. "Rally to Restore Sanity" in response to the hyperbolic and irrational fear mongering which pervades our national discourse.  (And of course he is mocking Glen Beck.)  The rally will feature posters with messages such as "I disagree with you, but am pretty sure you aren't Hitler."  Not to be outdone, Colbert came out in support of the nastiness and called for a "March to Keep Fear Alive" on the same day and at the same place.    I couldn't help but think of this conversation and the website generally.  

Rick Wolfe,

I am not sure what thread you are reading.  If you go back and read this one you will see that most all of the nastiness is directed at me and Tom.  I've tried to get the thread going in a positive and productive direction multiple times, but as your post shows, the petty griping and snippy comments continue.   Your post and others like it keep us in the muck, despite what I am sure are your good intentions.

But let's let bygones be.  I've got no skin in this game and never have had any, and I'd like to see the conversation elevated above all the pettiness and bickering.  

__________________

Ian Larson,

I have never seen the article so I cannot comment on it.

_____________________________________________

TomM

If you'd like it posted sooner, email it and I'll try to get it posted.  

Dmoriarty,

Do you not remember that last sentence? You committed to posting it just as much as I did. So after a week goes by you have the nerve to lecture me about my character and not getting it posted? You said you would get it posted quicker than I, so how did you not drop the ball? If Macwood knows anything about the world wide web, which he does, there's no excuse for him not to be able to post something. It should have happened a week ago between the two of you.

[Ian Larson]

So enough with this childish blame game crap....


What's the general consensus of exhibit A? Am I missing something or is there something in there suggesting Tilly either had alot of help or did not design Shawnee at all? I don't see anything...



MCirba,

I dont see DMoriarty capable of convincing the bikini clad women of SoCal into a picture

[DMoriarty]

Do you not remember that last sentence? You committed to posting it just as much as I did. So after a week goes by you have the nerve to lecture me about my character and not getting it posted? You said you would get it posted quicker than I, so how did you not drop the ball? If Macwood knows anything about the world wide web, which he does, there's no excuse for him not to be able to post something. It should have happened a week ago between the two of you.

Nonsense.  I posted it as soon as I got it.   TM didn't send it to me sooner because  YOU TOLD HIM YOU WOULD POST IT.  Your continued weaseling and excuses further proves you are all class.

[Ian Larson]

Then this just proves how important it was to have it posted if it took a week. Did Macwood forget how to work email as well? Get off it and get a life because I could care less what you say about me. The things posted so let's see what the he'll about it proves anything.

[Tom MacWood]

Ian
I have not posted the article because the site no longer provides a picture posting option. As I said before I have no idea who did what at Shawnee, and that was after reading that particular article. That article does not prove anything IMO, but it does present an interesting perspective.

Ian
You must be tired after a long week because your brain is not working on all cylinders. I never said the article proved anything, if you remember this what I said before I sent it to you....of course at the time you were lathering from the mouth so you may not remember. And I still believe this article does present an interesting perspective considering it is the personal account of a man intimately involved in the project.

A few observations:

* It is written in the third person which is a little strange IMO
* Tilly never mentions Worthington by name although its not difficult to figure out when Tilly is referring to him, including the first paragraph
* Tilly emphasizes his construction role and never mentions in the article that he designed the golf course

[TEPaul]

After reading that article it occured to me that what must have set MacWood to wondering if someone else designed Shawnee was because although Tillinghast wrote that article and has his name on it and photograph in it as the designer, he referred to the person who designed the course (himself) in the third person.

I guess this says something about MacWood's inablilty to understand what he reads because Tillinghast referred to himself as an unnamed third person constantly when he wrote newspaper and magazine arcticles using a pseudonym, generally "Hazard." So it is not at all unusual that he would do it again in an article that has his name on it and his photograph in it with the caption under it as the designer of the course.

That kind of third person reference was obviously just clever Tilly playing mind-games on the reader again. He did that all the time and it is entertaining for sure.

But alas, MacWood is apparently incapable of understanding that game by Tilly. I can just see Tilly roaring with laughter right now at MacWood's stupidity!  

And then of course MacWood virtually conceded in his post above that Tilly's third person reference apparently threw him for a loop.

THAT is probably why MacWood suspected SOMEONE ELSE designed Shawnee!   

As my DI at Paris Island used to tell our platoon---"You can only go as fast as the slowest guy." 

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I'm referring to the article...his account of the project. He never mentions in the article he designed the golf course; he emphasizes his construction role. We have no idea who wrote the caption for the photograph.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Writing it in third person may not be strange to you because you live your life shifting from one person/personality to another, but for me it is a little odd. Now if he had written this article under a pseudo, like Hazard, that would have been another story, but that was not the case.

[Ian Larson]

MacWood

Is this amateur hour? Anyone who has done any moderate amount of study into Tilly knows he would always write articles in third person under a pseudo. Why did he not use Hazard above this article? I'm not sure. It may raise the question as to WHEN he started using Hazard. Not whether or not he designed Shawnee. When was Tillys first article like this written? Are there earlier ones than this? I'm not sure but I would say probably not because Shawnee was Tillys first project. So why would he be published before this?

You put emphasis on the first paragraph. The unnamed owner and Tilly the builder. We know damn well that's Worthington. It's not a mystery. Is it such an oddity that the owner of a property would walk with the designer to show him the land, get to know him and see what Tilly thought? Isn't that what happens even today? Does every Doak course get questioned because he walked with the owner around the property? No.

This was Tillys first attempt, I see nothing wrong or questionable about referring to himself as the builder. Think about it, he just got hired for his first project...what rookie guy would NOT be there everyday getting dirty and building it himself. Maybe he didn't consider himself a designer yet...but he knew he would damn well be building a course taken from his imagination. I agree, we don't know who wrote the caption. That could have been by the editor of the publication after Tilly wrote it. Maybe that caption is the first time Tilly was called a designer. But none the less, if he WASN'T the designer...I highly doubt Worthington would allow someone be titled something they're not in a national publication.

Was Tilly a modest man? At least in the very beginning? If so maybe that's why he preferred third person in his writings and as he continued writing he began to even use a pseudo. Tillys first project, probably some of his first writing, and you have an owner who entrusted his passion project to a rookie. That's pressure, and I think what you have is a passionate and eager young and modest Tilly working his ass off to make his first project a success.

I don't think this story is any different than with today's young designers who are on their own. So it's a HUGE stretch to prove that Tilly did not design Shawnee. Especially since the club has the minutes, as well as Phillip, that you don't have access to...to certify that Tilly was the designer of their course.

[Phil_the_Author]

Ian,

To clear up a few things for YOU...

The earliest known writing by Tilly can be found in the December 1899 issue of Golf. It is titled "A visit to St. Andrews" and it goes into great detail about the trip he made there in 1898 and includes several photos taken by him, including the earliest known printing of his famous one of Old Tom Morris.

He first wrote under the pseudonym of "Hazard" in the November 1898 issue of American Golfer. Writing as “Hazard” in August 1910 he mentioned the progress being made at Shawnee. In November 1910 he wrote, “Mr. A.W. Tillinghast… has been very actively engaged in the development of the new course of the Shawnee Country Club.”

In May 1911 “Hazard” wrote “Mr. A.W. Tillinghast, who for the past year has devoted most of his time to the work on the new course of the Shawnee Country Club…”

Oh yes, lets not forget how in December 1912 that Tilly, writing as “Hazard” wrote, “in developing the 10th hole at Shawnee, Mr. A.W. Tillinghast the ARCHITECT OF THE COURSE…”

These are just a very few of the NUMEROUS times that Tilly directly wrote in print that HE DESIGNED SHAWNEE. There is not one single time where he credits Worthington with anything in this regard… not once.

There are those who mistakenly believe that the 1914 Country Club article is the most comprehensive one written about the design of the course… they are quite mistaken. One simply has to look at the original ADVERTISING BROCHURE put out by the club in 1911 just BEFORE it opened for play, which brochure was ALSO written by Tilly in his capacity as Club Secretary, to see that this is not so. You can see this on the Tillinghast Association website.

In this brochure he describes every single hole and even includes the only known drawing of the original routing. The course is 6,011 yards at opening. Now take a look again at the Country Club article and one will see two figures given for the course length. One is what it then measured in 1914 while the other is what it measured AFTER some changes in 1912. It doesn’t speak to the ORIGINAL DESIGN in any great detail.

In addition, there were numerous other articles written by Tilly and others that gave tremendous details about the course and individual holes BEFORE this Country Club article that were also greater in detail than that one.

Of course, ALL of the above has already been posted on this discussion but, then again, why should someone “who has no idea” who designed Shawnee and states he is interested in finding the truth out have bothered to have read those details?