Tom The Mac,
I apologize (something that it seems that it is impossible for you to do) for not answering this post sooner. I was out of town doing research physically AT a club.
You stated, “According to Worthington's obituary in the NY Times he collaborated in organizing St. Andrews GC on the Hudson, and later developed other golf courses.”
So Tom, instead of TELLING us what is stated in the article, why don’t you POST it? Isn't that what you take others to task for continuously on here? Yet that seems to be something you don't feel is necessary for you to do. If you did, maybe a thinking person might see it a bit differently than you do. Let me give you a bit of help by quoting the entire few relevant paragraphs:
“Worthington knew golf. Long before the ancient game was known I this country he played in Scotland when the old feather ball was in use, and brought some back to this country…”
Are you kidding me? When was Worthington born? January 6, 1854. So WHEN did he play golf in Scotland that was “BEFORE the ancient game was known in this country?” Golf balls and clubs were being advertised in the New York Times in the 1700’s! I think the writer wasn’t exactly accurate there…
He went on, “On his estate at Irvington-on-Hudson he built 6 holes…” That is true, 6 holes were built on his estate, but since he had just taken over the Worthington Pump and Machinery Company at his father’s death, I don’t think he was out there with a shovel. No, he had someone build it for him. Did he DESIGN it? NO ONE KNOWS! But I agree with you in thinking that he did. Where we probably differ is that I believe that it was a simple and rudimentary course of no apparent distinction.
“… and collaborated in the organization of one of the first golf clubs on these shores, at St. Andrews, Mt. Hope, New York. Later he helped develop the Ardsley Golf Club at Ardsley, New York…”
Now Tom, be honest here. WHERE in any of that does it mention designing or laying out a golf course? It doesn’t. Once again you fail to realize what Worthington was ACTUALLY DOING during these years. His actual involvement was as one of the founding members and NOT as someone either putting pen to paper and designing a course, walking with stakes in hand and laying out a course or even overseeing the work being done. If you have ANYTHING that says otherwise POST IT!
“About this time Worthington took the game of golf to Delaware Water Gap near his mountain retreat of Buckwood Park. He supervised the design and construction of 9 holes for the Caladeno Golf Club and followed this hobby by laying out 9 holes on his private grounds at Shawnee. His last contribution to the game was his championship course for the Shawnee Country Club…”
Yes, he actually did design and physically lay out two courses; first the 9 holes at Caladeno and the second the 9 holes “on his private grounds at Shawnee.” Now before you get too excited by that last phrase, that is referring to his HOME (hence the term “private grounds”) of Manwalamink where he loved with his family. The “mountain retreat of Buckwood Park” was his HUNTING LODGE! He spent time there with friends (including Tilly) from which they would go hunting. It was NOT his permanent residence as you have stated in the past, but that isn’t worth discussing at this point. You can read all about it in the coming book and then argue until you’re blue in the face if that makes you happy.
So consider the SPECIFICITY of what it says about those two courses ONLY! None of the first ones mentioned nor SHAWNEE itself, the single greatest golf course he was associated with, NONE of them were said to have been designed and or laid out by him where as Caladenon and Manwalamink specifically were. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that they were different from the others in that regard. Actually the question that should be asked is WHY did Worthington have such a personal involvement in these two courses and NOT in the others?
Simple… By the time he moved to Shawnee he had RETIRED and SOLD the Worthington Pump and Machinery Company when he did those two courses! Was he retired when Shawnee was being designed and built (including the Inn)? NO! He had already started THREE NEW BUSINESSES including the Worthington Mower Company and the Worthington AUTOMOBILE Company! He was building STEAM-powered autos which he would use at the Inn to fetch visitors with who arrived by train! I’ll let you do a bit of your own research and find out the THIRD company… Let’s just say he was a LITTLE bit busy!
The article continues with, “The matter of maintenance of these golf courses was ever uppermost in his mind…” It goes on to mention the “Scotsman” and his herd of goats he brought over to keep the grass in check and then his invention of the mowers and the founding of the Worthington Mower Company. I hate to tell you this Tom, but again you read far more into this than what actually occurred.
“According to the article his interest in mowing golf courses led to the development of that mower, and ultimately the Worthington Mower Co. If I'm not mistaken he is cited in Cornish & Whitten for his contribution to golf course development and maintenance equipment. It is ridiculous to claim he wasn't heavily involved in course maintenance.”
Tom, creating a business AFTER every course (except Shawnee) that is mentioned that you have stated he was responsible for designing and building has absolutely NOTHING to do with the act od designing and building them! Cornish & Whitten were correct in their citing him for his contributions to golf course maintenance. However, the fact remains that he ONLY created a small horse-drawn tractor (see photo in earlier post) BEFORE Shawnee was open for play. He didn’t produce his large gang-mowers and the tractors to pull them until the late teens! So Tom, is “maintenance experience” had NOTHING to do with the design and creation of Shawnee.
Once again you have the balls to ask me a question and even go so far to say “Why did you ignore it” when I have told you numerous times that I will no longer respond to your question until you properly apologize to me… and yet you CONTINUOUSLY IGNORE THAT! Still, the question you ask and the accusation that I’ve ignored you is so ludicrous that I simply must comment.
You asked, “I asked you why you ignored Worthington's design experience and overseas experience in your Tilly book, not the Shawnee book. Why did you ignore it? Are we to assume you also ignored it your forthcoming Shawnee book.”
Tom, how STUPID are you? I not only didn’t IGNORE it, I CLEARLY ANSWERED IT just above. How about READING what I actually write for a change?
Here it is:
3- "Why did you ignore Worthington's design experience and overseas experience in your Tilly book?"
Sorry Tom, but you simply don't get it do you. A biography of a particular individual, in this case Tilly, is simply that... a biography of THAT INDIVIDUAL. There was absolutely NO REASON that Worthington's "design and overseas experience" as you put it" needed to be in the book. It IS in the Shawnee book, and before you begin to think that is in anyway a response to the incorrect things that you've posted about his involvement in the design process let me correct that. It's not and was written weeks ago and is a VERY minor part to his story anyway.
Finally, you stated that you had, “never said Worthington had vast design experience. I said he had designed at least three courses prior to Shawnee. No, I don't know what would have being doing between 1906-1911 that would prevented him from co-designing Shawnee, especially since he was walking the site with Tilly in the winter of 1909. Please explain.”
Really now? Then WHO wrote thios on the Top Courses thread in post #138 while ironically QUOTING from a post you would later deny having read:
Quote from: Philip Young on September 13, 2010, 09:13:14 PM
Tom the Mac,
I don't know how true that may be as you directly responded to PARTS of posts of mine wherein the question was raised, but one more time:
You stated that, "Golf architecture advanced to the point where there were no inexperienced, untested architects operating in 1910..." [bold, italics, underline mine]
In 1910 Tilly was overseeing the construction of his just finished design at Shawnee. How can you possibly say then that he was NOT inexperienced and untested as an architect in 1910?
"His associate at Shawnee, Mr. Worthington, had a great deal of experience."
I’m sorry, maybe “vast” was the wrong word, but you certainly stated that Worthington had a “GREAT DEAL of EXPERIENCE” and even referred to him as Tilly’s “ASSOCIATE” in the design and building of Shawnee. You also made reference to his design experience in answers to others such as Mike Cirba.
No Tom, You simply are trying to back out of what you stated. Say you were wrong; it won’t hurt at all. You were. So what? It means nothing except when you won’t admit it and that compounds everything and you lose credibility.
Now, APOLOGIZE because by ignoring this you prove yourself to be a very little man when you then accuse me of IGNORING YOUR QUESTION’S when I didn’t!