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TEPaul

Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2010, 08:55:10 AM »
"Do you really think DT would buy the golf course and leave it intact, architecturally  ?"



Patrick:


Why wouldn't he? Do you really think Engineers finds itself in financial difficulty because of the architecture of the golf course? And if you think so what leads you to that conclusion? Have you heard any members of Engineers complain about the club because of the architecture of the golf course?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2010, 09:11:36 AM »
"Do you really think DT would buy the golf course and leave it intact, architecturally  ?"

Patrick:

Why wouldn't he?
Do you really think Engineers finds itself in financial difficulty because of the architecture of the golf course?
That's not  the issue with DT.


And if you think so what leads you to that conclusion?

His record and his M.O.
It's not his style to leave things intact


Have you heard any members of Engineers complain about the club because of the architecture of the golf course?

If they were so happy with the course, why did they bring in Tripp Davis to rework it ?


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2010, 09:19:23 AM »
Is there a declining membership issue with Engineers? There seems to be elsewhere among the "historically Jewish clubs" in the area- Inwood for example:

http://www.golfweek.com/news/2009/jun/22/demise-jewish-club/
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2010, 09:19:34 AM »
"If they were so happy with the course, why did they bring in Tripp Davis to rework it ?"


Probably because the whole idea of restoration projects have become far more common and popular than ever before. Whatever their reasons for bringing in Tripp Davis obviously the club could tell us. I was over there back in the late spring and talked to Ed Gibstein about the place. He's the green chairman. You know Ed and I've known Ed for years. Very good player.


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2010, 03:39:52 PM »
Any breaking news?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2010, 05:13:12 PM »
Rumors are that it's close. Hopefully Trump knows enough to do whatever he wants to the clubhouse and membership policies, but leave the golf course alone!
H.P.S.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2010, 05:31:29 PM »
Rumors are that it's close. Hopefully Trump knows enough to do whatever he wants to the clubhouse and membership policies, but leave the golf course alone!

Yeah, cause if there's one thing the Donald is known for, it's restraint...

Such a soft-spoken chap, pity we hardly knew ye.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2010, 05:31:58 PM »
I saw Trump on Golf Channel walking around with Martin Hawtree on his new Scottish course. He was so unlikeable, and Hawtree came off like such a spineless pawn, that I was disgusted with Trump and his ridiculous attitude. His comment on Royal Aberdeen: "I've brought more attention to this club than anyone in 200 years," he says after playing it. God, even the Royal Aberdeen people seemed prepared to say Trump's course would be better -- and it isn't even built yet.

He's a boor -- and I really liked Engineers, so I hope Trump stays well away. Of course at least I will be able to say I saw it before The Donald put in the waterfall on the 2-or-20 hole.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2010, 10:29:23 PM »
I was just down the street at North Shore this week but did not hear anything out of the Engineers membership meeting.

Drove past the club entrance and the 18th hole every day, and I fear that there is a place for an atrocious waterfall on the 18th hole.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2010, 11:29:38 PM »
I am curious. An offer means next to nothing in his world. What is the actual status. Iam also missing where the deal is here. Why tie up cash to make marginal returns on a fully developed venture.

Travis Dewire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2010, 11:30:35 PM »
Re:  above:  Ick.

Spoken like somebody who hasn't spent many 15 hour days writing equity research in an office lately. I'll drop what I'm doing right now in exchange for a tee time at Bedminster.


I'm sorry Jeff, it seems Mr. Doak has been too busy designing 4 top golf courses in the world's 100 best, to be slaving away like a drone in a NYC office, keep slaving away and you'll get there some day, and leave the real golf courses in the greater NYC metropolitan area to the real business elites

Mike Sweeney

Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2010, 02:55:02 PM »
I am just the messenger so don't shoot me.  :) From a friend:

Here is what Trump said:

Name will change.  Trump said nobody knows Engineers Club but everybody knows Trump.  Trump National Long Island it is.

Will make changes to the course.  Add new tees, make it longer, and will change the greens.  Told them the greens were too fast and nobody wanted to play them.  Said he would also regrass them with Poa too. 

Is going to enlarge the driving range, pool area and redo the tennis courts.  Also redo clubhouse and patio areas (both were already quite nice).

Making it financially good for current members in short term.  Decrease current dues for 6 years then pay market rate.  Old time members keep their current deal forever.


Membership vote in two weeks.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2010, 04:21:08 PM »
Mike I still not see where the deal is for him. He is still tying up capital and putting up additional monies for a low single diget returns. I guess sometimes a guy, even a blow hard, need a few bunt singles to make all the strike outs look better.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2010, 04:45:42 PM »
Tiger,

I think Trump is looking at these golf purchases in the long term as real estate deals. He was quoted in this article that is no longer available online in its entirety as saying that if Pine Hill, a recent purchase in southern NJ, doesn't make it as a club,then the land is still there to be developed:

http://www.globest.com/news/1751_1751/newyork/302702-1.html

Perhaps you have access to this.

He seems to be doing well there:

Trump: I paid $3.7 million for South Jersey club
"He did purchase the club for that amount," $3.7 million, confirms Eric Quinn, general manager of the former Pine Hill country club, now Trump National Golf Club - Philadelphia.

That sale dates to last December; I reported the price for the first time Wednesday, after hearing it from local real estate and golf club sources. The buyers didn't announce and weren't commenting on the price, but after I published the number - a bargain, compared to club assessment values in the inflationary mid-2000s - Quinn says Trump told him to confirm it.


"We have doubled our membership," which "was at 325 since we bought it," Quinn added. "A lot of those members came from Woodcrest," the nearby Cherry Hill club whose members are fighting with their bank, Sun National. Trump "wants us to be the best club in South Jersey," said manager Quinn.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq-phillydeals/

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2010, 05:47:06 PM »
 ;D :D ::) :-* :-X :) :)


ge one of this post note TD's comment ...."ick ".....says it all     


ps    isn't the first at Lookaway the spitting image of this hole ???


Mike Sweeney

Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2010, 06:21:49 PM »

ge one of this post note TD's comment ...."ick ".....says it all    


To be fair to Tom, he was not referring to Engineers.

It is an interesting horse race however. With Doak working at next door North Shore and IF the Trump plan goes through it is a very interesting scenario. Two neighboring clubs - one historic club going back to its roots to sell memberships and one historic club running away from its roots to sell memberships.

I think we know how most here will choose but will that be the case with regular golfers?

I have not played North Shore but my belief has been that Engineers was the better and more historic course.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 06:24:02 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2010, 08:18:57 PM »
Almost to a man, folks on this Board would be screaming if the thought of Engineers becoming NLE if someone with the deep pockets of DJT could not come in and bail the place out, if it's in financial peril.  DJT is a businessman, who understands ROI (return on investment) in real estate.  Acquiring an asset for the correct price increases one's chances for a POSITIVE ROI, unlike the NEGATIE ROI's which have occurred in recent real estate/golf history.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2010, 09:53:46 AM »
 8) ??? 8)

If Trump saves engineers from the wrecking ball , thank you Donald , thank you very much!

ps  Mike I knew that picture wasn;'t Engineers , just thought it waytoo much shaping ...in other words ICK is right

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2010, 08:35:24 PM »
The rumor in the neighborhood is that this is a done deal.

However, everyone seems to be discounting the possibility that Mr. Trump will not see the architecture of the course to his liking and will make major changes to it.

What is the difference between what the owner of North Shore is doing?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2010, 08:40:51 PM »
Tom,

I think there is a difference, even if it's only one of degree.

The first and most important difference is that Mr. Zucker did not come into the meeting with the membership and tell them how he was going to change the course, based on his own judgment, as Mr. Trump apparently did.  Mr. Zucker hired me and asked how to improve the course.  And though we are making so e significant changes, I think you could say that we are being sympathetic to the original style and design. 

I am not sure Mr. Trump will be so sympathetic, based on his comments about the greens at Engineers.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2010, 09:30:34 PM »
Sympathetic to what? If I'm not mistaken Mr. Zucker bought the course with the understanding it was a Tillinghast.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2010, 09:50:10 PM »
Since Tom Doak is offline, let me respond concerning Mr. Zucker's position since he purchased North Shore. No doubt that the purchase was made with the belief that the course was a Tillinghast design and that Mr. Zucker was a Tillinghast aficianado. With the revelation,as discovered by me in the Harmonie Club''s archives at the New York Historical Society, that North Shore hired Raynor to design the course, Mr. Zucker has embraced Raynor as the original designer of North Shore. The club's current website confirms this as does  the recent Newsday article posted in another thread:

North Shore CC, saved from grave, gets a makeover
published: October 30, 2010 4:12 PM
By MARK HERRMANN  mark.herrmann@newsday.com

 
[ Caption of photo]: The new green on Hole No. 6 at the newly redesigned golf course at North Shore Country Club in Glen Head. The new course design was done by golf architect Tom Doak.

Considering that North Shore Country Club was doomed at this time last year, before Donald Zucker bought and revived it, 2010 was a fresh start. And when members return for the 2011 season, they will see that the course has a new finish, too.  As much as Zucker instantly loved the classic Seth Raynor layout, he wanted to change it at least a little. "I've had the opportunity to play the greatest golf courses in the world and I know what a good golf course is, and I knew this course needed help," said Zucker, a developer, philanthropist and golf nut. He was especially unsatisfied with the nondescript par-4 18th hole. So he hired Tom Doak, one of this generation's master architects, to strike a delicate balance: preserving the feel of a course that is nearly 100 years old while doing something bold - beginning with the ending.
"I want to make it as good as it can be," Zucker said. "I believe Tom is the best and I really wanted him to do it, and now that I have seen the results of what he has done, I'm tickled pink." Doak knows Long Island, having consulted on restorations for several venerable clubs and designed (with Jack Nicklaus) Sebonack Golf Club in Southampton, where Zucker is a member. He also knows Raynor's legacy, having worked on some of the legend's original designs and having built the acclaimed Old Macdonald course in Oregon, in homage to Raynor's mentor, Charles Blair Macdonald. At the private club on Shore Road in Glen Head, though, there was more history than property. So Doak's solution was to turn things around. The first tee is where the 18th green used to be, and vice versa. The new 18th hole encompasses the old first and second holes and now is a memorable, scenic, challenging 600-yard par 5.
"I thought this course had some really interesting features, some really cool greens, some really neat pieces of topography, like the ravine you play over on 16," Doak said the other day, standing near the new first green. "But I never thought it fit together very well." The challenge was in the fact North Shore was established in 1914, before a boom in golf equipment technology (much like the boom in the early 2000s). Doak has found that pre-World War I courses are much different from those opened in the 1920s, when golfers began hitting the ball farther. "This course was laid out thinking people were going to drive it 200 yards. Whatever cool features there were, they tried to put them about 200 yards off the tee," he said. "So in the last 50 years, you've been driving so far past them that they weren't even in play. The only way we found to get some of those features back was to reverse a couple holes." Doak described the new first hole as a medium par 4, the second is a potentially drivable short par 4. The new 17th is what he calls "a really cool short par 3." There also is a new No. 7. "We're doing a lot of work here, but essentially we have left 13 holes alone," Doak said. "Because so much of that old golf course is still in play, all the new stuff is built to look like the old golf course. It's built to look like Seth Raynor built it." Of course, when Zucker spent $12.5 million last November to rescue North Shore from being plowed under, most people thought A.W. Tillinghast had built it. They weren't aware that Doak had written in his famous (now out-of-print) book "Confidential Guide to Golf Courses" that he discerned years ago from the greens and bunkering that it wasn't Tillinghast's work. Zucker was undaunted when researchers announced that North Shore was done by Raynor with help from Macdonald. He is excited about its future, including the 10 single-digit handicappers who recently signed up for membership.  "I have a goal here to be on the list of the top 100 courses in the country and I'm going to achieve it," Zucker said. "I'm in the real estate business. I build and I always try to be different. That has always been my mantra, to be different from the next guy." Toward that goal, he is adding an extensive short game practice area and a state-of-the-art fitness facility.  He also revealed that the revised course will have a Doak-built 19th hole. He wouldn't say what it will be like, leaving that for golfers to discover in the spring.

Here's the link to a tour of the work done on the course:

http://www.exploreli.com/recreation/golf/north-shore-country-club-1.2412236
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 09:56:26 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2010, 10:29:32 PM »
   
Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2010, 09:42:53 AM »
Quote  Modify
Tom MacWood,

I would love to see your short or medium list of "significant designs".

I have always promoted a similar concept.  One of the reasons for that is that it would limit the b.s. that Mike Young is talking about.  The reason there are so many so-called restorations going on today, is that architects are selling them to gullible members, and when the significance is being determined one course at a time, architects seem to believe that every course which might hire them is suddenly significant.


Tom,

Posted this from the other thread, where you may not have seen it.  Until I have your take on this premise, and whether you believe restoration is always the only answer, there is no point arguing with you about what we are doing at North Shore.  I believe I have restored more courses than most architects, but my choices are based on the circumstances of each individual course, and of course, on what the owner wants to do.  I can't do what I think is right unless they are willing to listen; I can only refuse to take the job. 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2010, 06:17:06 AM »
I don't have a list. Unique and unusual designs, breakthrough designs and the most outstanding works of historically important architects would be examples of golf courses I believe are worth preserving.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump to Buy Engineers?
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2010, 06:27:26 AM »
I don't have a list. Unique and unusual designs, breakthrough designs and the most outstanding works of historically important architects would be examples of golf courses I believe are worth preserving.

Tommy Mac

Please name some of the not so well known courses you believe fit the above definition.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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