[Patrick_Mucci]

"I don't know that I'd classify the summers as extremely hot, and they've got some great soil in that area."


Patrick I agree with all of that except the soil part. Their soil isn't great. It's the unique poa they have that doesn't produce a seedhead. They get all the benefits of poa such as the extreme density but don't have to deal with the hassles of seeds and the seeds taking away carbohydrates, thus allowing them to push the greens harder than any other poa greens.

Isn't that due to the soil conditions ?

Why wouldn't that unique poa thrive everywhere ?

I would imagine that the soil conditions have something to do with it, wouldn't they ?

[Carl Rogers]

Any Trump Course??

[Ian Larson]

If you were to look at a geological soils map of the Pittsburgh area you would see that the soil type within Oakmonts walls is not confined to just Oakmont. That soil type is probably all over western Pennsylvania if not all of Pennsylvania and the tri-state area. And when it comes to the greens it becomes irrelevant because the greens soil has been constantly modified with sand for decades altering any special characteristics of the native virgin soil. Oakmonts poa is hard to recreate even in State College. And that's because of decades of surviving and being maintained in Oakmonts microclimate. Decades of adaptation to microclimate and maintenance is what is going to be the influences on how a plant adapts genetically. So I think the soil is not special to Oakmont but it's climate and maintenance has been for the life of the greens.

The fact is it's the poa that IS unique. It's what is talked about. Not the soil. And that's because of it's ability to not produce seed.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Straight from the best;

http://www.turfnet.com/tv/player.html?ee_mediahash=43b50f2e8c4538d7164f184173fe4d09

[archie_struthers]

 

P Gert would tend to know a lot about tough superintendent jobs, given his experience!  So I'm going to go with his pebble Beach assessment.   You've got people paying $500 a round , a wacky climate with obstreperous poa greens ...a year round schedule of play and heavy patronage  ..pretty tough to keep it together given all these pressures.

[Ian Larson]

Sorry but it's not tough with the budget and all the resources you could ever need. This is the one thread we shouldn't see any Top 100 courses you guys get all excited about.

[archie_struthers]

 


Ian normally I'd agree as to all the top courses but unless you know the management and or greens committees personally it's pretty hard to talk about budgets vs. expectations. Some just have to keep the place alive . some need to produce outstanding turf conditions all the time.....given that expectations at Pebble are high and results have been spotty over the years (don't know the present condition) I'd guess the pressure to produce there is pretty tough , notwithstandingthe budget!

[Ian Larson]

I've worked at top 100 clubs where budgets are almost limitless and expectations are high. It's easy. It's easy when you have a huge staff and delegate responsibilty. It's easy when you have all the resources at your fingertips. High budgets-high expectations doesn't make a job hard. A hard position is low budget-high expectations. Again, sorry but this isn't the thread for all the top 100's you guys get boners on.

[archie_struthers]

 

Again sorry , but Ive worked at top 100's also and owned low, low  end where I've spent time on the tractor next to the superintendent and his crew of two lol  ..it's a whole different kind of pressure for the superintendent at the latter , way less intense and stressful....

[Ian Larson]

So your saying it's a hard job to gr poa greens in an environment where poa thrives with a HUGE staff and a HUGE budget just because fees are high and upper management expects great conditions? Sorry...don't think so. There are hundreds of MUCH harder positions than that.

[archie_struthers]

 

What I'm saying is that having lots of superintendents as co-workers and friends over the years they tend to be happier and under a lot less pressure at jobs that fly uner the radar a little.  You don't have to agree , but that 's my feeling and many of them would concur!  It's great to get the big job and the big money but it's not always easier ...for your family and your health

[Brian Phillips]

Yesterday I played Edgewood Tahoe on the South Shore of Lake Tahoe.  Looking at this course, and also rating it as a panelist, I really had to feel sorry for the superintendent.  I'm not saying it's the hardest course in the country to maintain, but this guy really has a difficult situation.

They have heavy snow probably 5 months of the year.
Cold weather another 2 or 3 months.
Push up greens which a number of the other courses in the area have sub air.
A good portion of the course runs around a marsh.
Many holes are in the trees allowing for little sunshine.
Enviromental limitations since it's on Lake Tahoe.
Canadian geese flock to the course.
A national TV event once a year with celebrities.
Heavy play during the summer.

What other courses have a really difficult golf season?
 

Nearly every course in Scandinavia has this problem...

[Brian Phillips]

I wouldn't name a single golf club that has a huge budget and all the resources available to tackle any agronomic issues and hire huge staffs to delegate responsibility. The hardest courses to be a superintendent are the ones without a big budget, yet face a multitude of agronomic challenges and get by with small staffs. The guys with budgets solve their problems with money. The guys without budgets solve their problems with sweat and creativity. Each golf course presents it's own unique conditions, some worse than others. What makes it hard is trying to manage under the conditions and doing more with less.

Amen Ian.

[Ian Larson]

Archie

I'm not trying to take away anything from the guys running the show at all the big name clubs. But on a thread that is talking about courses that are the most difficult to be a superintendent at....all you guys naming the same old big names that always get dropped on here is ridiculous. I know about the pressure you speak of at the big time clubs. And I also know of the pressure at the small low budget facilities. Just like any job there is the pressure to perform up to the level of expectations. You may be right with the guys you know at low end clubs that don't feel pressure. But as far as I know, especially with the guys I know at low end clubs, there's no such thing as less pressure at an "under the radar club". The guys I know at low end clubs feel just as much pressure as the guy at Pebble in their day to day job to produce a good product with what they have. Their performance and product are just as important.

The difference between the two is that the guy at Pebble doesn't have the pressure of taking a huge cut in budget or his own salary. The guy at Pebble doesn't have to worry about knowing IF he can afford to spray a fungicide while his greens are getting attacked by disease. The guy at Pebble doesn't have the pressure of having to jump on a mower because he can't hire more staff while at the same time taking care of his administrative responsibilities as well. I'm sorry but the Pebble, Winged Foot, Oakmont examples are just piss poor choices of what the hardest courses to be a super at are.

[archie_struthers]

 

Ian well said and I don't have any problem with your opinion.  

I've seen jobs at the high end clubs break people emotionally when they failed or a regime change cost them their job.....so it might be harder on them, as the old saying goes "be  careful what you wish for"  when you achieve your lifes goal and it doesn't go well....it just might be worse than small budgets and long hours for little money...

I appreciate your point , thanks   

[Tony Ristola]

Scandinavia; not all but areas . Especially tough where they have clay soils and where it gets cold and thaw. Helsinki and Stockholm come to mind.

I have huge respect for the supers there. They work like dogs to get grass on the courses after their long, cold winters and cool spring weather.
Nothing has to be more irritating than overseeding a green, having the seed germinate and then having frost... killing the seedlings. Rinse and repeat, and hope the poa kicks in fast!

.

[Matt Day]

I'm not saying my super has the hardest course but he does a great job along with the staff in interesting circumstances, and there would be plenty of others with similar problems.

36 holes municipal course with 12 staff. Each staff member only works a nine day fortnight, so Monday's and Friday's rarely have a full complement of staff. Those staff also do all the bins on course and around the clubhouse, all the practice areas plus all the landscaping.

170,000 rounds across both courses, the only time we close each nine is for two hours one day per week plus greens renovations (twice per year). In summer we have golfers starting as early as 4.45am and still playing at 7pm, so we mow and work between the golfers a lot.

His maintenance budget is reasonable, and the big thing is that we put in a new Rain bird irrigation system in 2005. That makes a huge difference.

[Kevin Pallier]

Matt

What are your coring seasons ?

[Matt Day]

Matt

What are your coring seasons ?

Kevin
We went a bit earlier this year, cored the busiest course 4 weeks ago and did the other 18 last week. Timing of that coring is around agronomy and when school holidays start.

Next coring is in March, and we do the same 3 week split between each course. Generally use 1/2" hollow tynes

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Augusta National..expectations and expectations to the ultimate degree

[Bruce Katona]

I have to believe a place like Cobbs Creek or some of the Fairmont Park Commission facilities in Philadelphia, as they have little to no budget to work with and heavy public play.  2nd would be the NYC course run by American Golf for exactly the same issues.

[Ian Larson]

Augusta National..expectations and expectations to the ultimate degree

...and the ultimate budget and ultimate resources to easily meet those expectations.

[Joe Buckley]

Augusta National..expectations and expectations to the ultimate degree

...and the ultimate budget and ultimate resources to easily meet those expectations.

Do you think if you took the Super from the local public course he'd be able to produce the same product just so long as he gets an unlimited budget and resources? I sure as hell don't, those guys are at the top because they're the best at what they do and the majority have had to prove themselves on courses where the budget isn't limitless and the resources aren't endless.

 

[Ian Larson]

First of all your notion of a super from a public course is a poorer super talent wise just because he's at a public with conditions that match his budget and expectations is completely insulting. Especially to those guys. I know plenty of talented supers at publics that are very agronomically savy, hard working and could go in a continue that level of maintenance. Could ANY super just go in there? No. But your generalization is way off. The quality of club doesn't equate to quality of super. Neither does size of budget. And if you are saying the guys at Augusta are the best because they came from small budget clubs then aren't you talking against yourself on your point? I think some of you guys are off on what makes a course "hard" to be a super at. Especially at Augusta.

[Brian Chapin]

Hydronics + SubAir + $$ + the best talent in the world = playing god.  I'm with Ian on this one... no disrespect to the boys at Augusta, I'm sure they all work very hard, but that is not a course that belongs on this list. 

I also agree with Ian that the comment about the public course super is uneducated.  Those guys are some of the most skillful supers in the business.  Its no coincidence that so many of the new turf care inventions are the brainchild of muni-course supers.

 I'm not sure what course I would nominate for this list... but for sure it would be a Daily Fee course.   

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