[LeeHarris]

Ive been reading a bit about the Redan but must admit I always thought about it in terms of bumping the ball in the front right bit of the green and letting the humps funnel the ball round onto the green

However, it seems this is not how it should be, that there should be provision to go directly at the flag also.

Now, I could immediately see how you could add interest by allowing the player to perhaps play long or wide and try a chip shot up the green, a bit like you could play the Road Hole long and left, but am a bit puzzled by the direct route

In my mind, I am seeing this type of hole with a 3 or 4 iron, low running shot, but I cant quite marry that to the idea of going right over the bunker at the pin onto such a green ?

Am I missing some subtleties here? or is this related to golfer ability? Just seems that on the one hand you're talking about a long iron type shot, on the other a mid to short iron - ie if its even feasible to go at the pin the "target" way, doesnt that mean youre using a club that would never be suitable for the "traditional" redan approach ?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Lee,
From the interview W/ George Bahto that appears in the Feature Interview section of this website:

"What more accurate way to describe a 'Redan' than Macdonald's own words? 'Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front side, approach it diagonally, and you have a Redan.' Bear in mind when Macdonald says 'tilt,' he means it. At National, hole #4 falls over five feet from front to rear. Redans are usually around 190 yards (a formidable distance in the early days of golf) with numerous strategic options depending on wind direction and course conditions: Fly it to the green if you are able, lay-up and chip on hoping to make three, hit a running shot at the banked area fronting the green or even play left of the Redan bunker hoping for a better approach angle (not recommended!). Behind the green are usually deep sand pits to catch aggressive play. To identify the best renditions, I would have to agree with this site's 'Discussion Group.' National's 4th and Piping Rock's 3rd are the most outstanding they built. Macdonald stated: 'the strategy of the Redan cannot be improved on.' The Redan strategy is used by nearly all architects - even as the green complex on par-4 holes. Redan traces its origin to the 15th at North Berwick where Davie Strath first built the hole while revising and formalizing the course. Sir David Baird, a former British Guards officer and a member at North Berwick, remarked that the escarpment Strath used at the 15th hole reminded him of the fortification he had stormed in Crimea 20 years before - the hole was immediately christened the 'Redan'."

[LeeHarris]

yeah thats one of the references I read

Im just having a hard time reconciling how I see the hole in terms of a very thin target from back to front as the golfer sees it and the notion of hitting 190 (5 or 4i?) onto the green and still holding it as it slopes away

[Tyler Kearns]

Lee,
      Macdonald's 'Redan' 4th at The National is a test of "psychological" design. Macdonald did not make it impossible to play directly for the pin;it is possible if the appropriate wind conditions prevail, and the player has critically assessed his/her talent level. it is a stroke played with exceptional risk, comensurate with the difficulty of the shot, with little reward. at the end of the day, it is a shot that few people could pull off with any regularity. the safer and smarter option remains short and right, allowing the land features to funnell the ball towards the hole, but we all know how often golfers due the smart thing!
      Macdonald gives a good account of his design intentions for the 'Redan' at the National in an article features in Geoff Shackelford's "Masters of the Links".

[Jim_Kennedy]

Lee,
I talked with George about the Redan. He said that the high fade was probably the way to play the hole. It is definitely a hole that wind plays a major role in shot type/shape.
For me, as a lefty, the shot is something high with a little draw, elements willing. If I don't get the draw I am long left and chipping back up at the hole. Not too bad a place to be.
  

[Jim_Kennedy]

shivas,
No I have not. Nor do I think it's a good idea. The bunker is punishment enough and all the tree would do is stop the player who is the shorter hitter from trying this approach due to the lower trajectory of the longer iron or wood.

[Will Waugh]

Does the 16th at Augusta National qualify as Redan variant?

[TEPaul]

Lee:

The whole "redan" concept has come in so many variations on a basic theme I'm sure it would be acceptable to try any variation--like the one you mentioned of playing to the "far" or "low" side and chipping back.

If you're a purist on this concept you probably appreciate the right to left redan with the "kicker" off the green and a bit short of it like NGLA and Piping. I like Piping's because it happens to be one of the higher ones I've seen from the tee and I think of a redan as a military fortress type affair that appears to be difficult to approach successfully (as military fortresses are supposed to be)! Jim Kennedy, on that historic fact, very good attribution on your part to Braid of the Crimean military experience as the one naming the hole!!

But the variations on the Redan are also some of the most interesting aspects of the basic concept. Certainly Somerset Hill's #2 is one of the more interesting ones with the first half of the green facing the golfer, the "kicker" somewhat in the middle of the length of the green and then the rear portion turning distinctly left and falling away! Westhampton's is one of the more multi optional ones as it's at a very slight angle (probably 10 degrees) and it seems possible to play a draw off the right shoulder, or even a fade off a slight left shoulder or even a straight shot down the middle of the swale formed by the two shoulders. This is only possible since the green is oriented at such a slight angle though. Of course the green is very long and runs away all the way from front to back.

MacD and Raynor's redan at the old Links club was a long an excellent "reverse redan", very long and obviously called for a faded wood shot!!

William Flynn built some great variations on the redan theme too! A great one with Huntingdon Valley's #3! You can try to sling a low draw landing short of the green or you can hit a high straight shot over the left bunker. Flynn did two redans at Philly Country--a right to left one (#7) with the entire right side as the shoulder and the very high uphill #15 as a reverse redan and very long! Lehigh's #3 is sort of downhill reverse redan. Manufacturer's #13 is a redan (but not falling away) and Rolling Green's #14 is a bit of a reverse redan (but more sloping left to right than falling away).

Of course Shinnecock's #7 (Raynor) is a very difficult redan to hit and hold the green.

It seems to me that since some of the very best redans have greens whose surfaces and approaches are sometimes quite severe that the "playability" of most redan concept holes have a lot to do with the firmness of the ground (and green) and the speed of the green! In other words, when a hole like NGLA has firm and fast ground "through the green" and the green speeds high, hitting the ball over the bunker is a very dicey play. Maybe Tiger could do it with a moon shot but something hitting the green will filter left and down anyway probably! But on this kind of redan if the greens are hard enough where a ball is hardly bringing up a pitch mark the best way to play it is from off the green and bouncing on, I would think! The same with Piping's--I just can't see anyone hitting a ball directly over that (enormous) bunker and holding that green from the tips.

I think for the best of the redans the way to really understand them is to have a real "seat of the pants" feel for the condition of the ground--both approaching the green and on the green. I can see really good golfers on the best of these holes selecting the wrong type of shot--hitting it really well too, and getting screwed. That's the real beauty of these types of holes! And how many par 3 holes are there where the best play is from off the green onto it? Not that many!

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEPaul,
The info I gave was right from GB's interview.
I have never played Piping Rock but it's Redan hole is 187(tips) yds. That seems to be an acceptable length at which a ball could be hit high enough to hold, especially with the almost guaranteed spin off a tee shot. A fade would produce a softer landing to boot and the ball would also be spinning towards the uphill.  I think you are completely right about certain conditions playing a part in the choice of shot but unless the green were super hard this shot could work well.
Hope you had a nice time while away.

[Tyler Kearns]

TEPaul,
      without the firm ground conditions, it seems that a hole such as NGLA #4 is severly weakened. at NGLA, Macdonald designed the course without definitive lines of play, comparable to a chess match, calling for equal parts attack and defense. Macdonald designed the hole so that it was one hole that would be best approached "defensively", using the ground contours to the right of the green to bank the ball towards the hole. only under proper wind conditions or with a perfect stroke (non-existant margin of error) could #4 be attacked by air. if the softer conditions of modern irrigation prevail the 180-185 yard carry to the hole seems much less daunting, even with the green sloping away. further, the option to the right of the green is less effective due to a limited degree of roll.
       is it possible to persuade green committee's and memberships to turn off the tap?, or must 'Redan's be built more severe to accomodate for lush conditioning?

[TEPaul]

TKearns:

Good questions and I don't know what to tell you exactly. I can't imagine a designer today ever building a hole like NGLA's #4 more severe just to accomodate lusher conditions. That to me would really be putting the cart before the horse architecturally (as it played into a proper "maintenance meld", if you know what I mean!). The best thing to do would be just to understand how maintenance practices dramatically effect the "playability" of a hole like that, and obviously by that I mean how fantastic firm conditions make its architecture play.

Jim Kennedy:

I guess your right about Piping's redan from the tips at 187yds for a tour caliber player. I'm sure they probably could loft something like a 6 iron right over the middle of the enormous redan bunker and cut it into the severe right to left slope of the green and hold the ball! But I don't think the tour players will be coming to Piping again and for 99% of the membership that is just not the type of shot they should try on that particular hole. I really can't believe that C.B. or Raynor envisioned that shot on that hole. For the membership the best play is still to try to fit a nice shot to the right side (just on or off the green) or run something in from the "kicker" bank to the right of the green! I think super Rich Spear is trying to keep Piping quite fast too so that should work well!

Again, for a hole like NGLA's #4 there are a bunch of neat options in how to play the hole when the conditions are as firm as they should be. If the hole is downwind you not only want to "kick" the ball off the fairway to the right but you have to hit it just the correct distance onto the "kicker" or you'll be short of the green or over straight over the right side--this is presuming the downwind shot would be coming in quite high. You could hit something lower and shorter to run it across the "kicker" and onto the green downwind too. Into the wind it's a harder shot obviously and for me anyway it takes something a lot lower to that "kicker". Flying the ball right over the bunker either downwind or into the wind is really not a reasonable option for me--I just wouldn't try it!

If anyone, even a tour player, really wanted to come into that green over the bunker in really firm conditions either downwind or into the wind the shot would have to be a very high trajectory and soft!

[Ben Sims]

BUMP!!

A question for some experts out there.


1) In your opinion, does a redan play better as a level hole, slightly uphill, or slightly downhill?

2) Does a redan continue to be a redan if the green is shaped, bunkered, and diagonal as it should be; but has two tiers--the furthest from the player being the lower one?

3) Is a redan effective if there is no bunker guarding the inside diagonal (front left)?  For example, in place of the bunker you had an angular drop off to a mowed chipped area.

[Chip Gaskins]

Ben-

I asked this same question about Shinnecock Hills #17 recently:

[JC Jones]

Im down for this exercise.  I think, perhaps, there is an interesting (and maybe unintentional) interpretation of the redan at Belvedere in Charlevoix, MI.  I'll see if I can find a picture on the Belvedere thread, otherwise I'll go tomorrow and take a picture to post.  For those who have played it, I'm thinking of #17.

[John Mayhugh]

Im down for this exercise.  I think, perhaps, there is an interesting (and maybe unintentional) interpretation of the redan at Belvedere in Charlevoix, MI.  I'll see if I can find a picture on the Belvedere thread, otherwise I'll go tomorrow and take a picture to post.  For those who have played it, I'm thinking of #17.

I do not have any good photos of the hole, but from my one time playing it I did not have the impression of a redan. While there is something of a right to left tilt of the ground, from my memory the green is mostly round and there is no bunker at all on the hole. 

[JC Jones]

Im down for this exercise.  I think, perhaps, there is an interesting (and maybe unintentional) interpretation of the redan at Belvedere in Charlevoix, MI.  I'll see if I can find a picture on the Belvedere thread, otherwise I'll go tomorrow and take a picture to post.  For those who have played it, I'm thinking of #17.

I do not have any good photos of the hole, but from my one time playing it I did not have the impression of a redan. While there is something of a right to left tilt of the ground, from my memory the green is mostly round and there is no bunker at all on the hole. 

I agree that it doesn't jump out and scream redan but, after playing it every day this past week, I think there are some redan characteristics.  Although 100 yards of the 180 of the hole is carry, 50+ yards short of the green an runway is there that is definitely banked on the right.  So, a shot played would roll to the left towards the green.  There is no bunker front left but instead it falls off down to the bottom of a hill.  The green definitely is shaped at a 45 degree angle away from the tee.  I'll go out tomorrow and take pictures to post.

[JC Jones]

PS, I think it is more redan-like as #4 at High Pointe, which is called Redan....

[Ben Sims]

I'll go on a limb in stating that if the Redan has one key, it's the tilt of the putting surface.  More than the front hazard or the even the diagonal to an extent, you must have a tilting surface to accept the runner from the front right area.  This is why--fromthose that have been there and study--the redan at NGLA is supremo.  I've been told it drops 5 feet from front to back.

Mr. Bahto, what say you?  Did you talk the Renaissance men into that severe of a redan at Old Mac?

Also, want to take a stab at the three question I posted above?

[Chip Gaskins]

OK, if the tilt is part of it, then check the 17th out from behind at SHGC

[JC Jones]

As promised, here are some pictures of #17 at Belvedere.  This is obviously not a classic redan, but I think it holds some characteristics and thought I'd post it for discussion.

Here is a view from the front tees:



And another emphasizing the banking on the right:



The green from the front right:



The banking on the right from behind the green, showing how a low runner played out to the right would feed to the green:



Here is another view from behind the green looking back at the tee:




As I studied the hole tonight, the tee shot was very redan-esque.  However, the green does not move at a 45 degree angle so much.  There is significant room to the back right and the green is shaped like a right angle triangle if the 90 degree angle was the back right of the green.  Instead of a bunker on the front left, there is a significant drop off.  The green has significant contours on the right and on the left but is relatively flat in the middle and instead of sloping away from the tee box, it moves, if anything, slightly back to front.

I welcome comments from those viewing the pictures and from those who have played the course before.

[Ben Sims]

JC,

I like it!!  The idea of a bunkerless Redan sounds intriguing to me.  I think the green contour, the surrounding slopes and the dropoff would have to be much more severe and closely cut to be as intimidating as a true redan.  But I think the clean look and tough but manageable recovery options would be great fun.

[JC Jones]

JC,

I like it!!  The idea of a bunkerless Redan sounds intriguing to me.  I think the green contour, the surrounding slopes and the dropoff would have to be much more severe and closely cut to be as intimidating as a true redan.  But I think the clean look and tough but manageable recovery options would be great fun.

my pictures dont show it very well but there is at least 5 yards of fairway length grass around the green on all sides.  The hole is 180 from the tips and there is fairway from 70 yards and in.  My pictures also dont show the sever mounding on the left side of the green that feeds balls close to the left edge down the hill.  I would say the left 8 feet of the green are completely off limits.

[George_Bahto]

The Redan Tom and company built at Old Macdonald is an excellent version. The hole will play downwind most of the time so Tom thought turning the green at the “normal” 45 degrees would be too severe.

The overall appearance may be a little different that the Redan-image most people in their mind BUT you will find it will PLAY very close to the “norm.”

You’ll be hard pressed to par the hole and it will be a fun hole to play.

[Carlyle Rood]

Here are some photos of the original Redan hole at North Berwick (West Links).  I took these photos in the summer of 2004.


Hole 15, 192 yards, Par 3



Hole 15, 192 yards, Par 3



Hole 15, 192 yards, Par 3

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think the Redan is something that most golfers do not like. I can't say I have ever wanted to build a green like it but at one of my recent projects Cumberwell Park we built a fourth nine that was a bit quirky and definitely influenced by this site. The course manager was Marc Haring, a member of this forum, he really wanted a Redan, we ended up compromising a bit but the green slopes away on one side and I put some flats on the other and every person I bump into likes every hole bar this one. Everytime they say the same thing and at the only other Redan style green in our area (6th at Bristol & Clifton) there is no love for the green style at all and I tend to agree with them.

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