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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« on: September 12, 2010, 10:27:40 AM »
I can enjoy his courses and the strategies but sometimes they just don't fit....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Phil_the_Author

Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2010, 10:30:24 AM »
Mike,

That's too general a statement for me. Can you cite specific examples?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2010, 10:34:52 AM »
Mike,

If you enjoyed the course, what about it didn't fit ?

Which course ?

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2010, 10:35:53 AM »
Mike...

I am sooooo with you.  I've only played one Raynor (and another he worked on with CBM) and I have LOVED the golf.  But the courses don't look natural at all.  And the pictures of other courses of his don't look natural at all.  But again, they look like fun golf.  Just awkward looking.





Geometric looking features with harsh angles and edges.  I don't get it.  Again, fun golf...but if we harp so much on natural courses...what gives?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2010, 10:37:37 AM »
Phillip,
All of them...

Pat,
Agree as to if enjoyed why worry....that's why he gets away with it..people enjoy his courses...and I don't wish to name a course...just say all of them...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2010, 10:47:58 AM »
I'm one that doesn't care how "artsy" Seth may have been--he produced some great golf courses. :) 

Mac,

I think your second pic is Camargo?? but both look great to me.

Here's a total layperson thought:

Perfectly natural or minimilist design that blends well looks great BUT, maybe paradoxically our eyes don't mind a linear or geometric look either.  I see the lines shaped by Raynor as blending pretty well with a lot of settings--the Eden at Camargo for example may be my favorite "look" of any inland par 3, ever!

What I do think is jarring to the eye are the manufactured mounds, the three ice cream scoops and the overly shaped landscaped look that we stereotype with 80's construction.  When the golf courses begin to look like a beautifully landscaped Post Property with sweeping curves and humps of three or five and color at all the "right" locations, that's when I get turned off--that is what looks so contrived to me.

Just a thought.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2010, 10:49:48 AM »
Mike,

How many artistic engineers do you know ;)  I know one I would hate to think of in that manner ;D

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2010, 10:51:22 AM »
I'm one that doesn't care how "artsy" Seth may have been--he produced some great golf courses. :) 

Mac,

I think your second pic is Camargo?? but both look great to me.

Here's a total layperson thought:

Perfectly natural or minimilist design that blends well looks great BUT, maybe paradoxically our eyes don't mind a linear or geometric look either.  I see the lines shaped by Raynor as blending pretty well with a lot of settings--the Eden at Camargo for example may be my favorite "look" of any inland par 3, ever!

What I do think is jarring to the eye are the manufactured mounds, the three ice cream scoops and the overly shaped landscaped look that we stereotype with 80's construction.  When the golf courses begin to look like a beautifully landscaped Post Property with sweeping curves and humps of three or five and color at all the "right" locations, that's when I get turned off--that is what looks so contrived to me.

Just a thought.

Chirs,
I'm not disagreeing with you....
But  the greatness of his courses was not the question ;D   You want me to have an expert from the Golf channel ask this in a different way ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2010, 10:51:57 AM »
I don't know, but his golf courses sure are beautiful.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2010, 10:54:23 AM »
I get that they are angular, stark and geometrical.....but that is visually pleasing to me.  I love playing his courses.

I guess you can chalk me up as one of those people who goes to an art auction and buys the green circle, red square and yellow triangle on canvas for $1,000,000 while the rest of you battle it out for the $1,000,000 Monet.  I think you're crazy and you think I am.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2010, 10:59:22 AM »
Did he ever create or did he just use the same holes over and over....I don't know ..just asking....

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2010, 11:00:26 AM »
I'm one that doesn't care how "artsy" Seth may have been--he produced some great golf courses. :)  

Mac,

I think your second pic is Camargo?? but both look great to me.

Here's a total layperson thought:

Perfectly natural or minimilist design that blends well looks great BUT, maybe paradoxically our eyes don't mind a linear or geometric look either.  I see the lines shaped by Raynor as blending pretty well with a lot of settings--the Eden at Camargo for example may be my favorite "look" of any inland par 3, ever!

That is the Eden (#5) at Camargo pictured.  I like the angular look as well.  We can debate the merits of Raynor relying so much on his template holes, but I like the way the course looks.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 11:59:05 AM by JLahrman »

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2010, 11:02:50 AM »
I don't think a course needs to look natural to look beautiful. In fact, I usually find the engineerd look of Raynor, MacDonald and Dye to be just as beautiful as the most natural looking courses.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

TEPaul

Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2010, 11:03:35 AM »
Mike:

The basic question and issue you seem to be posing with this thread has been posed before on this website and for a long time now. I wouldn't swear to it but I feel the first who may've posed it, as far I can remember, was Wayne Morrison years ago.

Personally I think this general question just might be one of the most interesting and fundamental ones in the history of American architecture and it just might be one of the fundamental questions and issues in all of golf architecture period----do golfers actually enjoy the natural looking OR the artifical and man-made looking in golf architecture and WHY?

In other words, might there be some very fundamental, inherent, even if subliminal REASONS why various people enjoy one rather than the other? Reasons perhaps such as MAN's fundamentally different perspectives of his inherent and perhaps primaral relationship with Nature itself----eg does one enjoy more preserving Nature itself or manipulating it and essentially feeling he has finally conquered and harnessed it, in fact or in some psychological manner?

Unfortunately, this question and issue and subject and discussion has never really succesfully developed on this website and I don't think it is any secret, at this point, that is because there are at least three and perhaps a half dozen or more on here that just don't want it to be discussed of developed for their own various reasons.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2010, 11:06:44 AM »
Mike,

I always wondered why I liked Raynor courses since playing my first - ShoreAcres - in about 1979.  Most of it was the feeling that you were playing a museum piece where "they just don't make them that way anymore."  Of course, the SA site was spectacular, too, with the ravines, even if you don't see the lake while playing.

I also think there is something of a lack of self consciousness that is appealing, knowing how hard most of us work to make a very unnatural item (i.e., golf tees, greens, and bunkers) "natural."  In other words, they ain't, so let's just put the minimum of work into building them (steepest slopes, simplest shapes, etc.) and not worry about naturalism.

I had a college professor once who was writing a book on things like railroad coaling towers and grain elevators in the prairie landscape.  As tall structures on the wide prairie, they do stand out, and have no ornamentation to gussy them up, and in so doing, their very practicality kind of makes them work visually.  At least, we appreciate that a grain elevator has but one function and accept it for what it is, even if it is far from natural.  Yet, it has become iconic part of the American Prairie landscape for other connotations.  In reality, aren't golf courses single function bits of landscape architecture that could have the same qualities apply?

That is a little deep, I guess, but in reality, building something that just is what it is may be more natural and minimalistic in the end than trying to build something that is artificially trying to mimic nature.  And maybe, somewhere deep down, we appreciate that honesty in design?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2010, 11:07:11 AM »
Nicely stated, Ryan.

One thing I'll say about Raynor's work - it doesn't seem to have required a grow in/maturation process, i.e. what you got on day one was what you got.  It probably looked its best right from the start, from opening day.  And I think over the last 50 years there have been many architects (and clients) who wanted the same thing, i.e. who wanted to have the course to look as good as it ever would on opening day.  I must say, that approach/goal seems to work a lot better -- for me -- when the look being sought is one of Raynor-like-and-golf-focused artifice rather than faux-naturalism.

It's the "faux" that's the killer.  

(Or as Jeff B just said - we want an 'honesty in design')

Peter    
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 11:09:52 AM by PPallotta »

TEPaul

Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2010, 11:12:32 AM »
Ryan Potts:

By your example I think you have in some very important ways captured the vast differences and dichotomy of this particular issue. This very thing is part of the reason I first developed my theory I refer to as "The Big World" theory-----eg people really do have vastly different preferences and tastes and golf architecture with its perhaps necessarily wide spectrum of types and styles can actually encompass and accommodate them all in many ways.

The only thing it can not do is accommodate and encompass them all in any single golf course!   :'( ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2010, 11:13:38 AM »






Geometric looking features with harsh angles and edges.  I don't get it.  Again, fun golf...but if we harp so much on natural courses...what gives?

Mac,

In the second photo, I suspect that the contrast in the colors is tainting your perception.
The land slopes right to left so any structure, tee or green is going to look in conflict with the sloping terrain.

As to the "unnatural" look, what golf courses do you find that have natural and unnatural looks ?
Not just to the ordinary golfer but to the discerning architectural eye ?


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2010, 11:15:42 AM »
TP and Jeff,

I too like his simplicity and cleanliness....and I really enjoy his courses...I can ask the same question I ask here of Stickley or Greene and Greene furniture....my favorite furniture but very simple....
I would go as far as to say Pete Dye was a Raynor with creative abilities....

As TP says...sometimes people become defensive when some of the ODG's are questioned etc....I am not saying anything bad about Seth Raynor.....I'm saying he was not artistic...but his courses have the ability to stand the test of time more so than most...IMHO...due to the simplicity...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2010, 11:20:05 AM »
Also - Raynor's artifice is appealing to me because it seems ego-less.  That is, even though the hand of man is completely obvious, the whole gives me the feeling that it isn't him that I'm seeing but the forms -- and only those forms required to challenge the golfer along/through the tried-and-true principles of good design.  There is something good and decent about a craftsman who is so obviously willing to put the demands of the craft -- and of the game this craft is meant to serve -- above his own more personal (and thus, smaller) self.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 11:30:24 AM by PPallotta »

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2010, 11:25:35 AM »
Did he ever create or did he just use the same holes over and over....I don't know ..just asking....



#15 and #13 at Shoreacres are not templates but are two of my favorite holes he's done, template or not.

And I would argue that he does have an artistic bone in his body as shown by the way he used the surrounding environment to enhance his golf holes, geometric or templates aside.
H.P.S.

Ian Andrew

Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2010, 11:27:15 AM »
Did he ever create or did he just use the same holes over and over....I don't know ..just asking....

Go see Shoreacres - the strenth of the course has nothing to do with templates - in fact, I can't place a template on more than half the holes.

I've always thought he was highly underestimated as an architect.
He may have been highly influenced by the design philosophy of Macdonald, but there is far more creativity there than he is given credit for.

As for repetition, you build enough work and you will eventually become repetative if you love certain ideas in design.

TEPaul

Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2010, 11:35:39 AM »
"As TP says...sometimes people become defensive when some of the ODG's are questioned etc....I am not saying anything bad about Seth Raynor.....I'm saying he was not artistic...but his courses have the ability to stand the test of time more so than most...IMHO...due to the simplicity..."



Mike:

There are some on here who get defensive when some of the ODGs are questioned etc, but it seems to me of all the ODGs the one a few on here seem to get unusually excercised about or over the questioning about him and his architecture is C.B. Macdonald.

Furthermore, even if it may not be all that big a point I'm not sure I would say that Raynor was not in any way artistic unless by "artistic" one is only thinking about something that is intended to be a real representation of the overall look and combined lines of Nature itself.

I realize some may try to say that a straight line or even a fairly unbroken curvilinear line surely does exist in nature but I say that is an unimportant point when one begins to consider all the over-all lines inherent and involved in most natural settings (and settings that exist before golf courses are put on them).

Macd/Raynor courses almost always have stood the test of time in playablility but I would not even say the look of them is simple or simplicity.

Frankly, I think much of the look of many of their holes comes from a derivation that few if any on this website have ever even considered or thought of!  

Even given what I believe that derivation was it certainly is possible that over time the constant use of these basic models by Raynor and their linear look became to some perhaps the look of "modern" man-made art and architecture (building) which we do know preceded Macdonald and Raynor by perhaps up to half a century, and perhaps even in some cultures by a millenia or two!    :o


« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 11:45:59 AM by TEPaul »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2010, 11:42:58 AM »
The Raynor style easily lends itself to criticism of being repititous not only due to the heavy use of templates, but also because of the angular and very simplistic shaping.  However, this in and of itself could be a stylistic (and  thus artistic) statement.  Raynor must have been seriously bucking trend of naturalistic design. We must all remember that the orginals didn't have nearly the artificial look of Raynor's take on them.  I don't know if Yeaman's Hall is a good example of the Raynor style, but while overdone, the one area I think Raynor was very artistic at YH was in the relationship between bunkers and greens shapes.  Strangely, the fairway bunkering is very good even if it doesn't tend look good; one up essentially for engineering over art.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Did Seth Raynor have an artistic bone in his body?
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2010, 11:49:18 AM »
"We must all remember that the orginals didn't have nearly the artificial look of Raynor's take on them."


What originals are you referring to?