[Matt_Ward]

During my recent visit to the west I made it a point to stop in Bend -- arguably, the best summer weather in the USA in my mind. Warm days and cool nights -- AC is really not needed in most instances.

The golf dimension within Bend has certainly mushroomed - there are now a range of courses for the public non-affiliated player and an assortment of 2nd home communities that have sprouted up. Given the existing economic landscape it's highly doubtful that the rapid growth previously seen will continue or likely even return.

Among the more established layouts is Pronghorn -- a 36-hole layout that lies east of Bend and is composed of a Nicklaus and Tom Fazio design. The first layout to open was the Nicklaus -- a few years later the Fazio course opened. Pronghorn is a member-based club but they have permitted outside play to access the Nicklaus course -- the Fazio remains exclusively the member's club.

The Nicklaus course is a marvelously beautiful course that embraces the high desert locale where it resides. The main issue is that the course is just extremely difficult -- it sports the following CR and SL -- 75.2 / 151; 73.8 / 147; even the most forward markers sport a 70.8 CR and 133 SL. The Nicklaus course is surrounded by plenty of sage brush and once you venture off the fairways -- which isn't hard to do in plenty of spots -- the lielihood of recovery is quite slim. It's akin to hitting a ball in H20 and needing to drop. The Nicklaus course would be helped significantly if they provided for a much wider latitude in the drive zones -- not a wholesale widening of epic proportions mind you, but clearly with the intent in providing for a playabilty dimension that is lacking. When you play the Nicklaus course and should the wind really whip up the combination fo the two elements -- weather and narrow landing areas -- can make for a tough and long day for most players.

There are a number of fine holes nonetheless on the Nicklaus course and one of the best par-5 holes that Jackj has ever done from the 75+ courses of his that I have played is there -- the 543-yd 15th hole. Just a spectacular hole that I saw in pictures prior to playing it and the actual hole is even better in person. Weaves back and forth with the green elevated above the fairway and requires pinpoint shots that link power and acuracy. Time is tight for me now -- but I will add much more shortly.

[Jim Franklin]

I have always wanted to visit Pronghorn. What is the best way to get there?

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Bend does have an airport so smaller-sized jets can get there.

Likely big time flights can get to Portland and it's a pleasant and scenic drive from there -- roughly 3-4 hours depending upon speed and overall congestion.

Jim, be sure to include the likes of Tetherow on any visit.

[Rob Rigg]

Jim,

There are a few flights into Redmond from SF, Denver, Phoenix (maybe only in winter) and often from PDX.

Pronghorn is about 20 minutes from Bend.

Tetherow is about 5 minutes from Downtown Bend.

Matt,

I agree on 15 - a great hole - the 16th is fun as well. There are a couple of "weird" holes on the JN course. If you are driving the ball well then I think you can score but generally I agree - a tough course, especially for the bogey golfer. They have some nasty pins that can be used and if the wind starts blowing - watch out. Probably the best conditioning of any courses in the country at Pronghorn (?) - at least that I have seen.

[Michael Huber]

Re: Nicklaus courses

I'm a little bit surprised that Jack would design a course with small/tight landing areas, especially in the desert.  I was always under the impression that jack favored wider fairways and tougher second shots.  Is my impression incorrect, or is Pronghorn an exception?

[Garland Bayley]

Any pictures of this one? We see lots of pictures of the courses in Bandon. What we need are pictures from those places outside of Bandon that you traveled to.

[Matt_Ward]

Rob:

The issue for me with both courses is the amount of H20 that was applied -- Pronghorn is in a very arid area of the country and no doubt one has to water to keep grass alive -- but not to the point when you get FOOTPRINTS SIMPLY STANDING ON THE TEES, A NUMBER OF THE FAIRWAYS AND EVEN ON A FEW OF THE GREENS.

Conditioning is often derailed on this site as an item of concern. I'm not suggesting by any means that places need to be ANGC or similar in turf quality. But they need to be a bit more firm in order for the weaker player to get some run-out on their tee shots.

When you couple the "slowness" of the turf with the extreme length the altitude element does little to assist. Especially when the wind kicks up -- at that point you have a real slog on one's hands.

The Nicklaus course is blessed with some imaginative holes. The issue is the close proximity of the sage brush and all the resulting unplayable lies one can find. A good widening program is needed because frankly anyone playing it for the first time will not be scheduling a second visit.

Michael H:

Jack's layout at Pronhorn does provide width -- but it's a false width in that areas just removed do cause high incidents of unplayable lies and the like. What's amazing is how more playable and fun the TF course at Pronghorn is -- I will opine on that one shortly.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I haven't been in Bend for a few years now but when I was there John Anderson was the super at Pronghorn and the conditions were perfect...like over the top perfect. Firm, fast, green, with not a thing out of place. I'm betting the Bend economy going in the tank has impacted Pronghorn's maintenance expenses in a big way.

[PThomas]

I liked Jack's course...but played Fazio's the next day and thought it was even better...details later..

[Matt_Ward]

Don:

Could very well be. The turf is there -- the issue is that the "extra yard" of effort isn't in regards to turf being firm and minus the awlful looking footprints when you step on the tees, fairways and greens.

Paul:

Agree with you -- the TF layout is the better of the two. More playing margins given the savage nature of sage brush experiences. Really loved the canyon par-3 8th hole and the mid-length par-4 6th hole as well. Plenty of solid stuff indeed. What makes it difficult for many to understand is that TF's layout is a member's only affair. As a result, likely few people have played it. Get the course in firm and fast shape and the place makes a good argument for being a top four course in Oregon.

[Joel Zuckerman]

While I played the JN course at Pronghorn 5 years ago and don't remember it as particularly brutal, I must say I'm not surprised by those of you chiming in saying how tough it is.

His recent work out West is over-the-top tough....Promontory near Park City, Utah is a joyless slog, and Red Ledges, one town over in Heber, is more fun, more varied, but WAY too difficult...particularly as geared to the lot-buying crowd that's been targeted.

Lot-owners will have 10 times more fun tooling around in their new Benz (a buyer's incentive) than they will trying to get around the GC in less than a hundred blows.  That's whay they only have 50-60 members, and according to a caddie I had there 2 weeks ago, only 10% of the members play the GC with any regularity.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

The Nicklaus layouts you mentioned are quite bit varied -- Jack's work at Pronghorn has a number of stellar holes -- it's just thw width dimension that causes the issues in my mind. It didn't help for me to have to deal with footprints when walking on man-created wetness for the tees, fairways and greens.

Jack's Painted Valley layout at Promontory is any a "joyless slog" if people play the wrong tees. Those going to the tips with nothing more than a pop-gun tee shot will feel quite rightly overmatched.

We see things immensely different with your take on Red Ledges. Here you have a fantastic routing (that is walkable for those so incllined) and you have a wide array of holes and playing angles to think about prior to any shot execution. I played with mid to high handicappers at Red Ledges and they loved the place. The scenery alone is worth the visit. We agree to disagree.

Again, when we talk about people playing courses -- few people understand their own limitations and then they brand the course excessive when they should swallow their egos and play from tee boxes that provide some sort of reasonable result for them.

The different with Jack's work at Pronghorn is that the slope is very high and remains high for just about any tee box you play. Red Ledges is a good bit different and the sheer array of holes -- with the long par-3 on the back side being one major exception because the existing green is too shallow to handle the length involved there -- is certainly one of Jack's best in my mind.

Joel, if someone can't break 100 it's likely they have bitten too much off and refuse to admit the obvious -- they don't have necessary game to play from such tee boxes. Put them on the right tee boxes and it's a far different outcome in my mind.

[Joel_Stewart]

Didn't Doak or someone say the Nicklaus course at Pronghorn was the best conditioned course in the world?  The entire course is like a putting green.

I asked Jack about that and he had a 30 minute explanation on the type of grass they used was not his choice.  Was it still in that type of condition?

[Pete_Pittock]

You can play out of sagebrush a lot easier than you can out of gorse. And you can also find your ball. You need to hit the ball straighter ,
I only hit one gunk shot, which was in the 11th hole 'island'. Were there any limits on the amount of grassed area?

[Michael Dugger]

I think the course is plenty wide and plenty playable.

Methinks Matt Ward didn't have his best day. 

First complaints about footprints, and now the course is too narrow???

This "review" is case in point why one shouldn't give too much credence to someone's opinion based on one visit.

Perhaps Matt should have tracked down the greens keeper and asked him the deal with the soggy grass???

[Wayne Freeman]

Bend is really a great place to go for a terrific golf experience.  The town is neat and there are several good courses.  The private Nicklaus Pronghorn and Tetherow courses are accessible to the public ( although fairly pricey) because real estate is in the tank there and they need the business.   I thought the Nicklaus course at Pronghorn was just pretty good and agree with a lot of the comments here.  Unfortunately,  regular folks can't play the Fazio although they will let you tour it with a staff member.  That course has one of the coolest quarry holes in the world.  When they were creating one of the par 3's they did some blasting in front of the green (which has an amphitheater like volcanic background) and all of a sudden the land completely collapsed revealing 2 gigantic lava tubes.  These huge caves are way below the level of the green and are very dramatic.  Maybe somebody has some pictures.

 I thought Tetherow was fantastic and just a whole lot of fun.  We played 36 and had some good caddies which made the experience terrific.  Creativity is very much in evidence there and you get to hit shots like the ones described in the thread on Chambers on some holes.  Loved it..


 Crosswater is pretty good also and definitely worth playing if you're in the area. 

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

I don't disagree -- the Nicklaus course was totally green -- just a carpet -- the issue was the amt of H20 applied only served to take away from the design itself. And, the close proximity of the sage needs to be widened just a tad on more than a few of the holes.

Wayne:

Spot on regarding the lava tubes. Just a real cool site -- a photographer was with me when I played and I will try to have her post the pics of the hole in question.

Pete:

Of the two courses which is the better one. The answer is obvious -- the TF is the superior course. If you see it in reverse please outline in specifics your thinking.

The sage brush is literally on top of any number of holes at the JN course.

Michael:

The sentiments came from people I played with -- the Nicklaus layout is a good bit tighter than the TF course. You also have much more playing options with the TF course than the Nicklaus one.

I am also not enamored in that both courses have excessively long par-5's and with the soft and slow conditions they are simply added into the mix to boost overall yardage and to provide for a transition point to get to other areas of the property.

Michael -- the place was TOO wet. I saw it and so did others. You have high desert layout and it's wet to the point where clear footprints are easily made -- on the tees, in many of the fairways and on a few of the greens. You think that's fine -- so be it -- for you and others enamored with such playing conditions. How does Pronghorn hurt itself with a bit of brown and firm turf ?

In regards to visits -- what do you suggest is the cut-off number for any review? Five? Ten? A hundred? If there's a benchmark please share it with all people who opine on courses here on this site.

I simply provided my comments from the time I played the course -- I have been to Pronghorn previously and walked the layouts and was quite impressed but the courses then were much better prepared.

Last thought -- I don't "track(ed) down" people -- it's my hope the folks involved would have the courses be prepared correctrly during the height of any golf season.

Be curious to your thoughts how would you rate both courses according to the Doak scale and how you rate them for the whole State of Oregon?

thanks ...

[Michael Dugger]

Matt...

The three times I've played Prong. Nick. it has never been as wet as you describe. 

The point of my comment about this "wetness" issue is it might not be indicative of the way the course plays on a normal day to day basis.  You happened to experience something quite out of the ordinary, methinks.

And then to come to this public forum here and continue to point it out what you think is a "problem"...........well, 

I think it's unnecessary, you should just drop it.  I think you caught the course on a weird/bad day.

Now, as for rankings, in the Bend area I prefer both the Fazio and Tetherow to Nicklaus.  I don't think the course really gets cooking until about the par 3 6th.  I really enjoy the middle stretch on up to hole #15.  I too think that is a tremendous par 5, one of my favorite holes in the state.

The finish is somewhat ordinary, however, and there are only a few truly outstanding, memorable shots to be played.  In the grand scheme of things, for me personally, Prong. Nick. is a Doak 6.....ranks right up there with Pumpkin Ghost Creek and Crosswater.

I probably have an over-inflated view of the Fazio course because it really embodies a lot of things I love about golf course architecture.  In a photo finish I think it is the best course in the Bend area, although I've yet to play Bend CC and a few other tracks I've heard are not the creme de la creme of the region.  (Lost Tracks comes to mind...oh, and Awbrey Glen...)

The lava tube hole is just incredible......I agree with you that the 5th hole is a real tour de force!  I would have a hard time placing Prong. Faz ahead of anything in Bandon, but it's certainly a top 10 course in Oregon and nearer to the top then the bottom.

4 Bandon courses
Prong. Faz
Tetherow
Witch Hollow
Crosswater

You will probably find few folks who will argue with these 8 courses being in any "top 10" list.
   

[Raphael_Larson]

I spent three days at Pronghorn 2 weeks ago -- played two rounds at the Nicklaus Course and walked a good portion of the Fazio Course. 

It poured rain the night and morning before my first round at Nicklaus.  In fact, it rained right up until I reached the first tee (actually the 10th tee, b/c they sent us off on the back 9 first).  From then on, it was completely dry.  Even with a large amount of rain, I didn't feel like the course played overly soft.  There were a few places where standing water was an issue, but overall I was impressed with the way the course drained and the overall firmness of the fairways and greens.  By the next day, the course was completely dry and firm.

I agree with Matt that the Nicklaus course appears a tad too narrow.  However, in my experience, it didn't play that narrow (Full Disclosure: I drove the ball very well (for me) during my first round and less well my second round).  The narrowest fairways seemed to be #15, #18, #12, #5 and #6.   If they seriously plan on opening the course up to public play, I think these holes should be widened a bit to keep the pace of play up and make the course more enjoyable for high handicappers.

I think it's interesting that people love the par 5 15th.  While I thought it and #14 were the most spectacular looking holes on the course b/c of the views of the Three Sisters in the background, I found #15 to be pretty one dimensional.  After a decent drive over the lava outcropping, you either have a blind second shot to the green with lava rock on both sides or wedge, wedge.  For my game, wedge, wedge made a lot more senses than risk a lost/unplayable ball pin high.  I also didn't see any benefit to laying up right of the middle bunker 80 yards short of the green.  Personally, I found #16 much more interesting because it forced you to decide whether to play short of the cross bunkers or try to fly them on your second shot. 

I really enjoyed the par 3s, especially, #3 and #7.  For #3 I loved how you could either play straight at the green, or land it short over right bunker and let the slope run the ball onto the green.  On #7, I loved the huge false front.  It demanded a precise tee shot without requiring a lost ball penalty.

All-in-all, the Nicklaus course was a very good course with a lot of fun holes.  I haven't played Tetherow, Fazio, or Crosswater, but have played Lost Tracks, Sunriver-Woodlands, and Sunriver-Meadow.  Clearly, Pronghorn-Nicklaus is far superior to those courses.  For Oregon, I would rank it well behind the Bandon courses and maybe a shade behind Witch Hollow, but easily in front of Ghost Creek. 

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

Believe it or not -- but man-applied wetness is not as uncommon as you believe -- especially with courses in west -- mountain time zone and far western areas. For whatever reason -- the facilities -- either through a mandate to the superintendent or through the independent actions of the superintendent who erroneously believes that a speck of brown is bad -- just saturate the ground to the point where point-to-point golf is the only option available. This matter is not tied solely to me being at Pronghorn on one day. It is far more common from the many times I have traveled through the aforementioned area of the USA.

No doubt I am left to judge the course(s) based on my visit. Guess what -- there's no reason for it and any course that permits such a situation -- either knowingly or otherwise -- is going in the wrong direction in my mind. Just like final exams -- I would hope that at the height of any season that course preparation would be aware that the existing architecture doesn't shine when man-applied water is done to excess.

The problem Michael -- is not me. It's a common one with many facilities -- in the western areas that are often arid and get less rain. Faciilities believe that brown is ugly and a turn-off -- so they pile on the H20 so that any hint of brown is not possible.

I reviewed your listing of courses and don't have much to disagree with. I see Tetherow as a top choice to play in the state -- possibly TF is ahead of it but if so by only a whisker. I don't see the original 18 at Bandon as a lock for a top four position -- BT is good but there are holes (no pun intended with the middle stretch of holes in my mind. TF / Pronghorn and Tetherow can certainly make a run at the top four slots in my mind. Thanks for sharing ...

p.s. Michael, you never answered the question previously asked by me -- how many visits should one have to make to have a clear analysis of any course? One? Five? Ten? A hundred? Thanks for sharing ...

One other thing -- what's the Doak rating for you of TF at Pronghorn? Forgive me if I missed it.

[Pete_Pittock]

Matt,
Fazio has the superior course at Pronghorn. I have posted that before. On my personal list I have Fazio at #3 in Oregon, behind Pac Dunes and Old Mac. On the Fazio course I successfully played a ball 8" off the ground in a sagebrush. But just because you and agree doesn't make it so.

OMG I have the same avatar as Garland, I will fix when I gt back from the course.

[Joel Zuckerman]

I will agree about the over-watering issue out west  (Sometimes here in the SE also)  I played the delightful Victory Ranch outside Park City, UT last Saturday, and the fairways were far too wet...put a "damper" on the day!

Now--I mentioned earlier that I played the JN Pronghorn course in '05, and don't recollect it as painfully difficult.  Lots of courses under the transom between then and now...probably 250 or so, and it's hard to remember specifics about most.

 As for Red Ledges being more user-friendly by choosing the right tee box, let me add this:  The choices are 7,500 yards, 6,700 yards and 6,100 yards.  First off, an 800 yard disparity between boxes is absurd...400--500 yards is more appropriate.  Secondly, I am generally a blue tee player occasionally the blacks, or tips, if it's 6,900 or less.  So--the logical tee box for me is 6,700 yards.

My rounds prior to and succeeding RL were at the usual PC--area suspects--Glenwild, Promontory--Dye, Jeremy Ranch.  The scores (from similar lengths as RL--either black tees, blue tees or their equivalents)  79, 83, 81.  But at Red Ledges?  96!

Thus--I stick by my original comment--the GC is WAY too hard.  That's not just my opinion, as their lack of members, and their lack of play, echoes the same sentiment.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Jack's Painted Valley layout at Promontory is any a "joyless slog" if people play the wrong tees. Those going to the tips with nothing more than a pop-gun tee shot will feel quite rightly overmatched.

We see things immensely different with your take on Red Ledges. Here you have a fantastic routing (that is walkable for those so incllined) and you have a wide array of holes and playing angles to think about prior to any shot execution. I played with mid to high handicappers at Red Ledges and they loved the place. The scenery alone is worth the visit. We agree to disagree.
...
 Put them on the right tee boxes and it's a far different outcome in my mind.

Matt,

The slope rating a Promontory from the white tees is 140.
Red Ledges gives us a big break at 137. 

These Matt are the definition of slog city.

[Michael Dugger]

Matt

How many visits?  I don't think an answer to that question is going to settle this debate.  But anyways....

Maybe five or so?  At different times of the year, to boot.

However, my thoughts are more along these lines:

I value the input of a member or frequent local player of a golf course far more than I value the opinion of someone from out of town who has popped in for a round or two.

And then I value the input of numerous different people, all of whom have played the course at different times, in different conditions over a time line of years (if the course has been around that long.)

Based on that criteria, your "wetness" issue is a statistical outlier.  It was unfortunate, and considering the "freight" they charge to play Nicklaus I can see why you were bummed.

But it sounds like a rarity, like you stepped on the course right after the sprinklers turned off or something.  Raphael Larson just stated he played the course immediately following rain and it played quite firm...

Regarding Prong. Faz's Doak rating.  I figure an 8.  The lava tube hole is truly one of a kind.  That said, I also LOVE the quarry 17th at Tetherow.  

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

What's so absurd? The only people playing at 7,500 yards should be the very low handicap types. One other thing -- nothing stops players from mixing and matching tee boxes as they wish. I don't know your game or handicap type but with high altitude helping the overall yardage is not always an issue because of elevation changes and the like. The 1st at Red Ledges is a great example of that. It plays 422 yards from the tips -- but one is descending a decent amt from the back box.

One other thing to mention -- Red Ledges has very fast greens -- with sufficient contour to require far better approach play than the others you mentioned.

Their lack of play / members is tied to one broader theme you conveniently forgot to mention -- it's called the economy -- they opened up as the economy was already dive bombing. Other places -- such as Stone Eagle and a host of others -- are going through similar type situations.

Let me mention one other thing on VR -- the obvious tee-pad situation that Rees routinely creates is so out of character for any course but more so when placed out west and you want the course to blend in as much as possible. The par-3 8th hole is a good example -- the pads look hideous. In fact, the main claim to fame for VR is the inner half -- truly well done in so many areas. Too bad the outward nine isn't anywhere as good.

Pete:

Among the TF courses you have played where would you place TF / Pronghorn ?

Michael:

When I played Pronghorn they had a major fundraiser going on THAT DAY !

If the course was prepared correctly -- then the beneficiaries of that would have been people paying mega $$ to play there.

Let me point out that members have a vested interest in saluting their course(s). Not matter how many times they play it. Local players can sometimes have a bias because the course is in their neck of the woods. I've played many courses on one time visits and in 80% or more of the return visits the initial feelings I had were spot on.

Let me further point out that my feelings on Nicklaus / Pronghorn go way beyond just the H20 issue. The narrowness is present -- I also state that with no connection to how I played that day -- which was quite good. Compared to the TF layout the Nicklaus layout offers little wiggle room for the weaker player. Miss too far to either side and it's a quick unplayable or sideways punch out back to the fairway.

We agree on the TF layout -- of all his courses there is little discussion on the course and there are a range of solid holes to play. Like I said before -- that course, along with Tetherow, can make a very good case for inclusion among OR's top four courses.

Garland:

Red Ledges has far more playability and varied holes than Nicklaus / Pronghorn. When you actually play both courses feel free to send me a note based on personal observations rather than computer writing armchair QB analysis.

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