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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How many "great" courses does Scotland have?
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2010, 10:58:31 PM »
Bill M:

The 16th at Lundin Links is the model for the short par-4 "Leven" hole which Macdonald and Raynor used extensively.  The 17th at National is supposedly one of these but it is a very unusual version ... holes like the 3rd at Shoreacres or 5th at Chicago Golf Club are more to type.

The 17th at Lundin Links was never mentioned by Macdonald, but I am almost positive it was where he came up with the idea for the 16th hole at National, with its severely crowned fairway.  (The crown at Lundin is about 175 off the tee, completely missable today, but was probably right in play when Macdonald was there in Tom Morris' day.)  We used that as the basis for the fourth tee shot at Old Macdonald.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many "great" courses does Scotland have?
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2010, 11:51:31 PM »
Bill M:

The 16th at Lundin Links is the model for the short par-4 "Leven" hole which Macdonald and Raynor used extensively.  The 17th at National is supposedly one of these but it is a very unusual version ... holes like the 3rd at Shoreacres or 5th at Chicago Golf Club are more to type.

The 17th at Lundin Links was never mentioned by Macdonald, but I am almost positive it was where he came up with the idea for the 16th hole at National, with its severely crowned fairway.  (The crown at Lundin is about 175 off the tee, completely missable today, but was probably right in play when Macdonald was there in Tom Morris' day.)  We used that as the basis for the fourth tee shot at Old Macdonald.

Thanks, very interesting.  There is a lot going on at Lundin!  I love the old rail line, now gone but still an internal OB genially tolerated out of tradition!

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many "great" courses does Scotland have?
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2010, 12:07:01 AM »
I am also in the 10 to 15 range which is twice the number I see in Ireland. England is in the same range but probably slightly less than Scotland. Of course this depends on ones definition of great.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many "great" courses does Scotland have?
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2010, 03:59:24 AM »
I think #16 at Leven is great alone for the fact that you're playing back into the village. May not be something special to Scots, but the way many courses there play out of and back into the village is just very quaint to me. #17 can be a bit boring and a slog into the wind, but pretty challenging if they dastardly hide the flag behind the hill on the right.

We were told that there actually is an annual competition at Leven and Lundin, where they play over the original course, i. e. the old 9 holes on each course. As to the political angle, there are two clubs at Leven alone, with a jointly appointed committee, so I guess unification has to start there :)

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many "great" courses does Scotland have?
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2010, 04:46:57 AM »
Bill,

Marty isn't talking about Leven and Lundin re-joining.  Leven itself has two clubs (Leven Thistle and Leven).  I know nothing of the history or politics of that split, I'll let our resident Fifer fill in the gaps.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many "great" courses does Scotland have?
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2010, 09:20:11 AM »
I think there are 14.7 great golf courses in Scotland. No more, no less. :)

Bob

Bob,

0.7 ? That would be Shiskine, right ?

Niall

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many "great" courses does Scotland have?
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2010, 09:26:05 AM »
I think #16 at Leven is great alone for the fact that you're playing back into the village. May not be something special to Scots, but the way many courses there play out of and back into the village is just very quaint to me. #17 can be a bit boring and a slog into the wind, but pretty challenging if they dastardly hide the flag behind the hill on the right.

We were told that there actually is an annual competition at Leven and Lundin, where they play over the original course, i. e. the old 9 holes on each course. As to the political angle, there are two clubs at Leven alone, with a jointly appointed committee, so I guess unification has to start there :)

Ulrich
[deleted due to lack of reading skills]   ;D
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 09:37:23 AM by Bill_McBride »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many "great" courses does Scotland have?
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2010, 09:36:20 AM »
Bill,

Marty isn't talking about Leven and Lundin re-joining.  Leven itself has two clubs (Leven Thistle and Leven).  I know nothing of the history or politics of that split, I'll let our resident Fifer fill in the gaps.

Here's what the Lundin Links card says in a "100th anniversary of the present course" message:

"The original course was a shared links starting at Leven, playing towards Lundin and back again.  Players started at both ends of the links but with 1400 players, congestion became a major problem and in 1907 it was decided to create two independent links courses, Lundin and Leven.  In March 1908 James Braid, originally from Earlsferry [Elie], came to Lundin Links and in autumn began laying out the new course.  It largely remains unaltered to this day."

I reread Marty's post and you are correct, he says the two Leven clubs are discussing a merger, nothing to do with Lundin.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many "great" courses does Scotland have?
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2010, 09:45:36 AM »
Donal:

My intent was not to try and approach a "World Top 500" or anything close to it, just to find a less controversial way to repackage The Confidential Guide if I ever wanted to do it, by focusing only on the courses I would recommend seeing.  [It would be a lot easier to deal with Greg Norman or Jack Nicklaus on that basis, as I could include some of their work and say nothing about other bits.]

The problem with a "World Top 500" is just who would it be for?  There are a lot of unimaginative types who would think that list should include all 300 Jack Nicklaus courses [or alternatively, all 400 Donald Ross courses], because they have a narrow view of what's good in architecture and all of those courses fit their description.  Whereas my own list would focus on where you might find a great hole or cool feature you've never seen before ... for example, it would certainly include Painswick, even though I am sure that most people would not put that course in their top 1,000.

I have not counted up the entire list nor tried to figure out the percentages of courses in any given area that make the list.  40% is a high figure, but of course my sampling of courses is far from random ... for years I traveled on exactly this basis, going to check out any course which someone who sounded knowledgable would recommend.

Here was my list for Scotland (sorry no time to put it in order):

Highlands:  Brora, Royal Dornoch, Boat of Garten, Pitlochry, Nairn, Cruden Bay, Royal Aberdeen, Murcar

Midlands:  St. Andrews (Old and Eden), Kingsbarns, Crail, Elie, Lundin Links, Blairgowrie, Gleneagles (Kings and Queens), Carnoustie, Panmure, Kingarrock

East Lothian:  Musselburgh Old Links, Luffness New, Gullane 1-2-3, Muirfield, The Renaissance Club, North Berwick (West), The Glen

West Coast:  Western Gailes, Royal Troon, Prestwick, Turnberry (Ailsa), Loch Lomond, Shiskine, Machrihanish, Askernish


I realize that the cut-off point for this list is quite arbitrary and hard to distinguish.  Why Panmure and not Montrose?  Why did I leave out Lossiemouth [maybe just an error, there]?  Why not Kilspindie, which I've recommended here in the past?  All are fair questions; but on that basis, I suppose I could recommend nearly every course I've seen on some level or another. 

I guess my bottom line is that if someone was traveling from America to Scotland, I would tell them they weren't wasting their time with any of the above, instead of thinking they have "seen it all" just from playing the Open rota, and could move on to other destinations instead of ever going back.  Indeed, any of the sub-groups listed above would make for an excellent and varied golf trip, without all of the ridiculous racing around on narrow roads that most Americans do in order to see all the "greats" as fast as they can.



Tom

Interesting post as usual. A couple of things struck me about your comments, firstly that you don't go blind to courses but go on either a recommnedation or with some knowledge on the course. I suggest that is probably like 99% of the people on here, myslef included. I wonder therefore if these recommendations become self-perpetuating, even on a site like this with a knowledgible reader base. That it becomes harder to break out of the circle of "accepted" great courses.

The second comment that struck me was your comment on the tourists who come over, and they are not all american, who do the Open rota, "oh todays tuesday so it must be Muirfiled today" type excursion. I did the exact same thing myself when I did Myrtle Beach several years ago, basically travelled all over to play what I had been told by the tour operator were the best courses. No one immune to it I guess.

BTW, where's Kingarrock ?

Niall  

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many "great" courses does Scotland have?
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2010, 09:53:57 AM »
Niall - Kingarrock is the nine hole hickory only course that's been rebuilt in the grounds of Hill of Tarvit, the NTS-owned house near Cupar. Fun place.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many "great" courses does Scotland have?
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2010, 10:07:28 AM »
Thanks Adam, where does it come in the Scottish Hickory Course Top 10 ? Is it higher than Abbington ? I jest of course, but it illustrates the point that courses don't need to be great in the conventional sense to be worth seeing.

Niall

Melvyn Morrow

Re: How many "great" courses does Scotland have?
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2010, 10:34:57 AM »

For those who are interested.

Leven Links map Circa 1878




The description of the course in 1897 from The British Golf Links 1897







A copy of the map from the Leven Advertiser & Wemyss Gazette dated 29 Jan 1909 The Leven Links





Melvyn



Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many "great" courses does Scotland have?
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2010, 11:07:47 PM »
I must play leaven and lundinlinks soon. This is good reading

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