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Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #250 on: September 19, 2010, 11:00:41 AM »
Your not finding much using an end date of 1910 because golf was still at its very beginnings in this country. The teens was the big growth decade for golfers and the 20s seems to be the biggest growth decade for golf courses, especially after some sophistication about play and then design came along. I think the biggest concern in golf, circa 1910, was just having a place to hit balls. I wonder how many people there were in this country that were worried about a golf courses quality?
I think it was very appropriate you added emphasis to that line in the last post. I bet it is VERY indicative of the overall view of the game in that time.
Also not sure how you can compare golf courses that no longer exist. And who on this site has knowledge of what was there.

Ralph
You must have picked up this thread late. No one is claiming 1910 was the peak of golf architect. This thread was started in order to test this claim from Mike Cirba:

"Why do you see that as unusual, considering that in 1910, ALL OF THE courses in the United States that were deemed to be of top-quality were done by club amateurs themselves?"

The list is based on expert opinions circa 1910, when obviously all the golf courses in question existed. Experts like Vardon, Darwin, Evans, Hutchinson, Travis, Reid, Kirby, Calkins, Leach, etc.



Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #251 on: September 19, 2010, 11:31:20 AM »
Tom,

You continue to just make one histoically unsubstantiated claim after another, including staerting with the ridiculously faulty notion that in early 1910 courses like fox hills, homewood, aac, and most of the rest deserved to even be mentioned on the same planet with ngla, myopia, and garden city...its totally laughable Tom.

You compound your error with the completely unsubstantiated claim that by 1910 anyone wanting a first class course looked to a golf pro or experienced amateur...please provide the basis for the misstatement Tom. as for the next several years, almosat every prominent club in phully did it themselves!

Perhaps u guys in the midwest needed eastern expertise to get off the ground but please don't translate that into some universal truth because you are simply wrong and perpetuating a myth.

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #252 on: September 19, 2010, 11:42:21 AM »
And Tom...just like with your list of public courses...if you need to include a bunch of courses not even open by early 1910, or cite wholesale changes and improvements that took place after the timeframe in question, that simply speaks volumes about your own lack of confidence that real historical fact supports your fallacious arguments.

The track record of the pros bu spring 1910 was an abysmal failure, as your list ironically proves.

All of the best courses in the states in the spring of 1910 were designed by amateurs doing it for their own clubs.

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #253 on: September 19, 2010, 01:41:56 PM »
Just want to make a note on the attribution for Baltusrol.

The first nine holes was laid out by an Englishman named George Hunter who club founder Louis Keller employed for this task.

Gourley was the greenkeeper for a short stint, but most of the evolution of the Old Course has been attributed to George Low who was hired in 1903.

We believe the first island green in America, the old tenth hole, was attributed to Low and was put in play before the 1904 US Amateur, but was not used for the tournament as it was deemed too difficult.  

The course would never achieve any "Finality in Perfection."  It received some deserved criticism after the 04 Amateur and over the next 10 to 12 years was constantly improved in search of perfection.  Although considered one of the best courses in the land by the time the 1915 US open rolled in, shortly thereafter the course achieved a different form of "Finality in Perfection" when Tillinghast put it to the plough in 1919.


Rick
That is the first I've heard of George Hunter being associated with Baltusrol, but it doesn't surprise me. He was one of the original "Apple Tree Gang" at St. Andrews. He also founded the Richmond County GC on Staten Island. I believe he was a Scot, not English.

Gourlay was more than just a greenkeeper; he was the first professional at Baltusrol, hired in 1895. The course was expanded to 18-holes during his stint in 1896. It is my impression too that Low was largely responsible for the 'modern' golf course prior to Tilly, and I have no doubt it was one of the top courses in the country in 1910.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 02:12:47 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #254 on: September 19, 2010, 01:48:36 PM »
Tom,

You continue to just make one histoically unsubstantiated claim after another, including staerting with the ridiculously faulty notion that in early 1910 courses like fox hills, homewood, aac, and most of the rest deserved to even be mentioned on the same planet with ngla, myopia, and garden city...its totally laughable Tom.

You compound your error with the completely unsubstantiated claim that by 1910 anyone wanting a first class course looked to a golf pro or experienced amateur...please provide the basis for the misstatement Tom. as for the next several years, almosat every prominent club in phully did it themselves!

Perhaps u guys in the midwest needed eastern expertise to get off the ground but please don't translate that into some universal truth because you are simply wrong and perpetuating a myth.

Mike
On one hand you want us to believe NGLA was not in play in 1910, and then on the other hand you want us to believe these other courses were not mentioned in the same breath in 1910. You cannot have it both ways. Obviously they were mentioned in the same breath because we have seen several examples when they were. This was your claim:

"Why do you see that as unusual, considering that in 1910, ALL OF THE courses in the United States that were deemed to be of top-quality were done by club amateurs themselves?"

There were than two or three courses deemed to be top-quality, as this exercise has proven. Not only that but one of the two courses you site as being the creme of crop was originally laid out by a professional.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 02:13:38 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #255 on: September 19, 2010, 01:54:09 PM »

And speaking of unsubstantiated claims, here are some of the claims you've made on this thread:

* Baltusrol was awful
* Atlantic City was not heralded locally
* Nassau, Fox Hills and Salisbury were deeply flawed
* Mocked without any reason Homewood and Waverly
* 98% of the golf course in 1910 were 0 to 3 on the Doak/Cirba scale
* Ekwanok, Pinehurst, Columbia and Brookline were 5s on the Cirba scale
* Chicago and Mayfield were 4s

Mike
I'm curious do your emotions get the best of you when you throw this crap against the wall or is there some actual forethought given before you make these claims? Are you hoping that if you throw enough crap against the wall something will eventually stick?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 10:42:33 PM by Tom MacWood »

RSLivingston_III

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #256 on: September 19, 2010, 02:48:28 PM »
I am back for a minute. I will check back tonight to see where this has gone, so sorry in advance for the hit-and-run.

It seems like you need to attempt to define what a high quality course was to the players of that day.
In what I have seen posted It feels like you are imposing a modern perspective on where they were at with architecture.

How many years old is the field of golf course architecture at this point?  ..approximately..
Weren't most all courses "layed-out" by club professionals - who are still overwhelmingly scots as I recall - so how many years of experience playing do you think the average good club player had been playing and how qualified were they to make a determination of quality?
I believe you are just getting your first Americans with enough experience to take over club pro- duties.
You are still dealing with the change from gutty to rubber ball. Things didn't change over in just a single season like they do today.
I assume the USGA bulletins have been heavily studied by all involved.
There are a number of other things to be considered that I think are being by-passed.

later.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 02:52:49 PM by RSLivingston_III »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #257 on: September 19, 2010, 03:24:17 PM »
Tom,

Deflect and change topic all you like but compared to the top 3 and the best courses abroad all my statements are undeniably true.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #258 on: September 19, 2010, 05:14:50 PM »
Quote from Tom MacWood:

"We're still waiting."

Just like some of us are waiting to see your deep digging over on the Shawnee thread.........

I actually have no doubt that TMac is basically right on this one - the profession was becoming pretty well established, although the best was yet to come, and probably most courses engaged professional gca's even by 1910.  Even CBM, that bastion of amateur design, was already starting to set up Seth Raynor in business to make their services readily available, no?  Ross had started his practice, too, as did others TMac lists.

That said, there were still some courses, including some very good ones, that were designed by amateur committees, albeit apparently with some more experienced help in spots.  Someone should probably go out and list the really, really terrible designs those ams did, although there are so many early courses being rebuilt a decade later, that it is apparent that those seemed to be rush jobs, and were later rebuilt by people who showed some flare for it.

It happened the way it happened, and the real crux of the argument is, well the arguers.  Is the list good for spring or fall of 1910?  How much did the courses improve each year?  Enough to make 1913 a whole different bag of candles?  There is no real black and white since it was evolving and the arguments come from the all or nothing nature of the proposition.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #259 on: September 19, 2010, 05:48:45 PM »
Jeff,

I'm still waiting too.

I'm still waiting forsomeone to name the top professionally designed courses in the states that were open for play and first class in the spring of 1910. ;)

I'm certain I'll be waiting forever.  ;D

Mac Plumart

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #260 on: September 19, 2010, 07:22:00 PM »
Ralph...again, great points.

I think to get to the ultimate list of America's Top Courses in 1910, we need to understand what was happening in the country/world/and field of architecture at that time.  The gutty to rubber ball had to be unbelievably huge.


One thing that is weird is that I thought this thread was about discovering/discussing what America's Top Courses were in 1910.  I guess I don't understand why, if that is the goal, we need to fight over who designed the course and if that person was a pro or an amateur. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #261 on: September 19, 2010, 08:45:42 PM »
Mac,

If three magazines and 1500 posters can't agree on an ulitmate list of the current best courses, how in the heck would anyone be able to develop an ultimate list based on courses that no longer exist, no longer exist as they did, and no longer exist in the mindset of those who played them?

I don't disagree with TMac's basic premise of using the comments of a few well known golfers who chose to write about them.  But, how can we decided if he thought Fox Hills was "flawed" or "tragically flawed" based on some negative comments in an article?

We can't. I tend to think this thread was started mostly to provoke the Philly boys, who took the bait.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mac Plumart

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #262 on: September 19, 2010, 09:12:14 PM »
Jeff...

to your point, this thread was started mostly to provoke, there is very little doubt about that.  That can be seen pretty readily.  But gosh darn it I am interested in hearing about the Top Courses from 1910!!

I think the historical progression of not only golf in general, but these top tier courses specifically is quite interesting.  Therefore, I'd like to persevere through the games, gamesmanship, and non-sense to pull out a few nuggets of knowledge.  And I have.  

To your comment,  If three magazines and 1500 posters can't agree on an ulitmate list of the current best courses, how in the heck would anyone be able to develop an ultimate list based on courses that no longer exist, no longer exist as they did, and no longer exist in the mindset of those who played them?

I disagree that we haven't identified our current top courses.  I know what they are in general.  Are there a few hidden gems and/or over marketed over rated courses?  Yes.  But I think we've got a real good handle on things currently.  The problem is people get hung up on non-sense and argue about meaningless b.s.  Pebble shouldn't be rated 7th best, it should be 12th.  That is so meaningless to me as that is simply personal opinion.  The bottom line is that is in one of the world's best courses.  The bigger issue is what courses are being overlooked.  Why is Rich Harvest ranked top 100 and your Quarry Course at Giants Ridge or Mike D's Kingsley not rated unanimous Top 100?  That is a bigger issue to me and worthy of discussion.

Regardless, I don't care about the actual list.  I want people to discuss what courses should be considered and WHY.  Mike C has done a damn good job of this, but everyone is getting hung up on who designed course X, Y, and Z and are they an amateur.  Obviously, a carry over fight from another thread that probably has its roots in that same old topic that has been dragging down everyone for literally years. 

But if we get discussion going on the Top courses from 1910 with reasoning and rationale we can all learn something.  What the ultimate list is doesn't matter to me...it is the discussion that will result in learning.

Anyway, that is how I see it.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 09:21:40 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #263 on: September 19, 2010, 10:58:38 PM »
Quote from Tom MacWood:

"We're still waiting."

Just like some of us are waiting to see your deep digging over on the Shawnee thread.........

I actually have no doubt that TMac is basically right on this one - the profession was becoming pretty well established, although the best was yet to come, and probably most courses engaged professional gca's even by 1910.  Even CBM, that bastion of amateur design, was already starting to set up Seth Raynor in business to make their services readily available, no?  Ross had started his practice, too, as did others TMac lists.

That said, there were still some courses, including some very good ones, that were designed by amateur committees, albeit apparently with some more experienced help in spots.  Someone should probably go out and list the really, really terrible designs those ams did, although there are so many early courses being rebuilt a decade later, that it is apparent that those seemed to be rush jobs, and were later rebuilt by people who showed some flare for it.

It happened the way it happened, and the real crux of the argument is, well the arguers.  Is the list good for spring or fall of 1910?  How much did the courses improve each year?  Enough to make 1913 a whole different bag of candles?  There is no real black and white since it was evolving and the arguments come from the all or nothing nature of the proposition.

Has Ian posted the article I sent him? You've always had an interesting perspective on history and on current affairs. Current affairs being what transpires on this website. In both cases for whatever reason the facts often get twisted in your mind.

Seth Raynor was not a consideration since his design career came later. The list is through the end of 1910. I never considered cutting it off in the spring of 1910. How much did which course improve in what year? IMO it really doesn't matter which course or courses improved after 1910 because I'm confident that improvement will add further support to the idea that in 1910 (and after) if you had any interest in creating something good you would engage an experienced amateur or professional.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 11:00:10 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #264 on: September 19, 2010, 11:21:34 PM »
Could anyone explain to me why I should have cut this list off in the spring of 1910? Merion? If anything Merion proves why you wouldn't cut it off in the spring of 1910. In June 1910 Merion chose to engage an experienced professional and amateur, arguably the top amateur and professional architects in the country.

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #265 on: September 19, 2010, 11:25:40 PM »
I am back for a minute. I will check back tonight to see where this has gone, so sorry in advance for the hit-and-run.

It seems like you need to attempt to define what a high quality course was to the players of that day.
In what I have seen posted It feels like you are imposing a modern perspective on where they were at with architecture.

How many years old is the field of golf course architecture at this point?  ..approximately.. 30 years give or take
Weren't most all courses "layed-out" by club professionals - who are still overwhelmingly scots as I recall - Yes and No. What year? so how many years of experience playing do you think the average good club player had been playing and how qualified were they to make a determination of quality? I don't understand the question. I don't think the average good club player was involved in golf architecture.
I believe you are just getting your first Americans with enough experience to take over club pro- duties.
You are still dealing with the change from gutty to rubber ball. Things didn't change over in just a single season like they do today.
I assume the USGA bulletins have been heavily studied by all involved.
There are a number of other things to be considered that I think are being by-passed.

later.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 11:28:07 PM by Tom MacWood »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #266 on: September 20, 2010, 12:12:48 AM »
TMac,

I agree there is no reason to cut off the list at Spring 1910.  You may as well cut it off at fall '09 if that is the case, given its the NE and snow falls ending the season for the most part.  

As to the list, well, we are waiting and I don't think he is posting it.  Given how you treat everyone else here, accusing them of witholding info and being unethical, I think its fair to suggest your lack of evidence on your thread clearly designed to embarass Mike C and others is kosher.  If its not up, we must presume you are hiding something, just like you presume everyone else is, no?

Raynor did not come later.  According to George Bahto, the contract for Piping Rock was signed in 1909, and Raynor was retained to build it and Sleepy Hollow in 1910.  I was making the point that CBM was already trying to provide gca services in his own unique way at the time of your list, which is true.  You even treat people who agree with you like babies treat diapers.  Have you read "How to win friends and influence people?"

So, you can stop telling everyone at every opportunity that I don't know shit from shinola and always get history wrong.  You are clearly the most twisted sucker on this whole website.  Thanks in advance.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #267 on: September 20, 2010, 12:31:08 AM »
Mac Plumart,

If you simply want to discuss courses of 1910, then there is no need to rank them, unless you are Mike C and want to establish that the top whatever were done by am archies (somewhat true but not black and white as others will argue correctly that CBM helped at Merion, etc.).  David, TMac and others have brought forth valuble and interesting documents in that regard and I find them fascinating, too. 

I think they are better presented and left for all of us to determine what they mean.  I think we ALL get a little insulted when one or another phrases suggesting we need them to interpret things for us.  And, I am just as guilty as the next guy.  There is a fine line in presenting an informed opinion and....well, shoving it down someone's throat.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #268 on: September 20, 2010, 12:55:20 AM »
Mike Cirba,

I see you edited your insulting, profanity laden post to me over five hours after you originally posted it.  You are pure class.

As for the events at NGLA in the summer of 1910, I've told you what the NYSun said about it them, and it was not the only article.   Plus, in early May the Brooklyn Daily Eagle reported that play would begin the next week, with the opening in June.   I have no idea why you are so indignant about me going to sources from that time. 

The Sun followed up on July 3, 1910 under the headline "National Golf Links Now Open."

It is not to be the scene of a real cut and dried tournament until next June, when golfers of fame abroad are to lend distinction to the play, for the present gathering is only a picnic of the founders and members to get an idea of what has been done toward obtaining the ideal links.   Allowing twenty percent off for incompleteness . . . the course is now a grander test of golf than any in this country.   In variety and types of holes . . . there is nothing on this side of the Atlantic equal to the new links.   The only point on which Myopia, Baltusrol, Garden City, and Ekwanok and some other noted American courses now lead is in texture and wealth of turf. 

Note that Baltusrol and Ekwanok are being thrown right in there with Myopia and Garden City as the best of the rest.

The Sun article then went on to describe the course, and from what I can read from a a very bad copy, the course seems to be complete except for the "temporary" eighth green, with the real green growing in and scheduled to be open in the fall.   It is very difficult to read but I believe the article closes with:

[NGLA] is a tribute as it stands to the energy of American golfers and may some day be a Mecca for pilgrims from links of other lands. 

Why you continue to misrepresent the July 1910 tournament as a "soft opening" for only a limited group of invited top players.  According to the press at the time, the course was open for play for the membership. 

Given the state of Philadelphia golf at the time, I can understand why you might be overwhelmed by the quality of golfers at this tournament, but so far as I can tell this was a member's gathering.  That is what it was billed as, and all of the top golfers - the "First Eight"- were members.  While Travis was eventually dropped from the list, he considered himself a Founder at this point.  Max Behr, Devereux Emmet, and Joseph Knapp were founders, as were H. J. Whigham, C.B. Macdonald, M.J. O'Brien, C.F. Watson, F. H. Thomas, and J. B. Harriman.  Ward and Herreshoff weren't Founders, but they were members, as was Louis  Livingston.   I don't have the list of associate members to check on the rest.

_______________________________________________

Mac, I'd like to explore it as well, but it is tough to understand what was going on right then.  Everything was changing.   What was considered to be state of the art in the middle of the first decade was outdated five years later.  So very likely some of the courses that were the considered the best in the late aughts might have been considered antiquated shortly thereafter.  So even courses that had been considered good went through significant changes either in the latter part of the first decade or in the beginning of the second. 

As to your broader question as to the evolution of the discipline, I think what you have is NGLA which despite its rough conditions was considered above and beyond all the others in terms of quality design, and then two groups of golf courses somewhere below this:
1) The old established courses that may have started out to be very much in the dark ages, but that were making changes to try and keep with the evolving expectations for the courses; and,
2) The new courses, which were being built from scratch.  These were generally based upon what most could consider to be closer to better, more enduring principles of quality design, but were generally young and immature and works-in-project in their own way.

Over time some of the old established courses did adapt through significant modifications, while others had to start over from scratch.  And of course many of the new courses eventually matured and were considered quite good.   By in 1910 this next wave had begun, but it is perhaps a bit early to see the full impact.

As for the amateur/professional argument it comes down to a bit of a word game.   To my mind the most important distinction wasn't between professional golfer or amateur clubman.  Rather, during this time period, the most important distinction became the level of expertise of the designer.   Fairly suddenly, designing courses became much more complicated and time consuming, and the amount of knowledge and expertise needed to do it well increased.   Neither the typical club pro nor the typical club amateur were equipped to deal with this, thus they were both on their way to becoming obsolete.   

Here is some of how Devereux Emmett described the transition in 1916.

It was supposed to be as simple a matter to lay out a golf course as it is to lay out a tennis course.  Holes were made rectangular--a certain width and height--bunkers with high banks which were as identical in height and shape as pickets in a fence were run across at angles to the line of play--that is all there was to it. . . .  It was all very simple before "Alps Holes" and "Redan Holes" came along to upset people's minds and set them thinking.  Nowadays a golf architect is expected to create a minature Switzerland on a piece of real estate as flat as Sheepshead Bay Race Course --with the Finance Committee hailing from Missouri.  Nothing is considered impossible anymore on a golf course. People expect new and original holes that call for the exercise of judgement as well as playing skill.  The standard of excellence in putting greens and tees and fairways and bunkers has been immeasurably raised.  There must be nothing artificial looking about bunkers, greens or undulations.

This meant that, to be successful, designers had to focus on designing pretty much full time, which meant they either had to be rich or get paid.    And while a few true amateur designers had produced successful courses (namely Leeds and Macdonald) they were very much the exception to the rule. 

Charles B. Macdonald is an exception. There is only one C.B. Macdonald. As a creator of great and original golf courses he is in a class by himself. As a generous sportsman he is in a class by himself.  His services to the game in this country are very great.  They never could be adequately compensated. He has shown American golfers what a real course is like.  But with all of his generosity and sporting spirit of helpfulness I doubt if he could accomplish what he has done if he had not been a man of large means.  Mr. Whigham says he has to work for a living, and no doubt he works hard, but I know very few men who do that who could have done a fraction of what Macdonald has accomplished.  He has been a prophet--a leader of a crusade.   People like that are different--not found every day.  Mr. Herbert Leeds, who has devoted years of time and unlimited and unselfish effort to create his beloved links at Myopia is in the same category.

. . . It would be interesting to know how many times Macdonald visited the National Links during its construction, and I doubt if any book would hold the written and spoken direction he has given about it. . . .


What Emmett didn't mention is that CBM learned to golf in St. Andrews in the 1870's, tried to introduce golf to chicago in 1875, spent long periods of time in Scotland playing golf between 1878 in 1892 (using Hoylake as his base,) was a pioneer of early US golf and early US golf course architecture in the mid 1890's, designed a few courses in Chicago including Chicago Golf Club (with the assistance of a professional,) took three separate trips overseas to study the golf courses in preparation for NGLA, had survey maps of some of the holes created, did thirty or forty drawings himself, consulted with perhaps the most renown experts in the world, including Hutchinson, Darwin, and Low, had another expert, H.J. Whigham, there to help him, consulted with the foremost turf experts at the Department of Agriculture, was versed in the landscape gardeners of centuries past, and perhaps most importantly, he had the services of Seth Raynor who, unlike Macdonald, got paid.    Plus he was rich, had a lot of rich friends, and could take his time and do it right. 

So while he was an amateur, he was by no means your average clubman or even your average club pro.   Travis wasn't either. (In fact Travis was a professional designer.  I'm not sure when he first got paid.)   Leeds was unusal as well, in that his work was done over decades, and he too studied the craft overseas.   And then there were designers like Emmett and Tillinghast, who were amateur golfers, but pursued golf course design as an occupation, pretty much full time.On the professional side you similarly had people like Ross who were developing the craft and taking it to a higher level. 

In short,  while the old club pros and perhaps a few clubmen had produced some very good courses for their time, the bar had been raised, and the discipline becoming more advanced.  In the face all of that the debate about club pros and clubmen rather seems to miss the point.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #269 on: September 20, 2010, 01:02:49 AM »
Mac,

David M has just provided an excellent example of what I am talking about.  Great post, David.  Plus, I agree.  The profession was evolving very fast then, it appears to me.  Thus, trying to pin it to a year very well might miss something.  But more to the point, trying to say definitively that pros vs ams was better is pretty hard to do.  I could conclude that by this time, pro designers were consistently better, but then there are those few sterling examples of amateur design out there which are strong enough to sort of define the 1910 era.

What happened, happened.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #270 on: September 20, 2010, 06:30:59 AM »
In 1915 Oswald Kirby ranked the following courses as the best in the East.

National
Baltusrol
Garden City
Brookline
Myopia
Oakmont
Ekwanok
Huntingdon Valley
Merion
Pinehurst #2
Pinehurst #3
Piping Rock

Kirby said Huntingdon Valley, Englewood (did not make his list), Oakmont, Oakland (did not make it) and Atlantic City (did not make it) were all very good, but not quite up to some of the others. His top 6 in order were NGLA, Myopia, Brookline, Baltusrol, Ekwanok, and Garden City. He'd obviously not seen the Cirba scale rating.

That same year Chick Evans came out with his best courses in the West.

CC of Buffalo
CC of Detroit
Mayfield
Kent
Chicago
Old Elm
Homewood
St. Louis
Atlanta AC
Denver
Victoria
Del Monte

Evans said he had played all of these courses with the exception of Del Monte and Mayfield. He was embarrassed about not playing Mayfield based on Vardon's assessment. He thought Atlanta AC was the best course in the South. Other courses he noted were Ravisloe and Westmoreland in Chicago and Sequoyah in Oakland.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 06:53:46 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #271 on: September 20, 2010, 06:45:39 AM »
Atlanta Athletic Club - T.Bendelow (1908), H.Barker (1910)

Beverly - G.O'Neil (1908)

Chicago - CB.Macdonald/HJ.Whigham/J.Foulis (1895), D.Foulis (1910)

Homewood - HJ.Tweedie/J.Pearson (1901), W.Watson (1910)

Ravisloe - J.Foulis (1901), R.White (1903), W.Watson/A.Bauer (1910)

Belmont Springs - D.Ross (1908)

The Country Club - W.Campbell (1894), A.Campbell/H.Windeler (1899), H.Windeler (1910)

Essex County - W.Campbell (1894), D.Ross (1910)

Myopia Hunt - W.Campbell (1894), H.Leeds (1899-1907)

Minikahda - W.Watson/D.Foulis (1899), J.Jaffray/R.Taylor (1906)

Atlantic City - J.Reid (1897), H.Barker (1909)

Baltusrol - G.Hunter (1895), T.Gourlay (1896), G.Low (1908-10)

Englewood - J.Hobens (1905)

Apawamis - T.Bendelow (1899), H.Strong (1906-10)

Fox Hills - P.King/D.Brown (1901), I.Mackie (1910)

Garden City - D.Emmet/G.Hubbell/A.Findlay (1899), W.Travis (1906-1910)

National - CB.Macdonald/D.Emmet/HJ.Whigham (1909)

Nassau - H.Murdock (1899)

Salisbury - D.Emmet (1908)

Pinehurst #2 - D.Ross/W.Travis (1907)

Mayfield - H.Barker/B.Way (1909)

Waverly - H.Barker (1910)

Oakmont - H.Fownes (1903)

Ekwanok - JD.Dunn (1899), W.Travis (1905)

Columbia - H.Barker (1910)


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #272 on: September 20, 2010, 07:19:39 AM »
TMac,

Good morning.  Please excuse my irritation last night and my ignorance this morning....but who is Oswald Kirby?  Of course, I know Chick Evans (hey, I met Chick Evans in 1977!)

I appreciate your post 274 as it contains information I didn't know.  As I said last night, I am not hung up on 1910 particularly so I think its relevant because while you picked the date 1910 for reasons of your own, it would be a coincidence to find enough documents in that exact time frame.   (My first thought last night when I saw the spring/fall and 1910-1911 arguments was "ten-ish anyone?")

Those two lists (and yours, which is slightly different) have about 25 courses out of the approximate 1000+ built at that time and would be a fair sampling of the best. I think it would be ridiculous to narrow it to top 3, even if today's top 100 lists cover about 1/10the the % of courses now built that this 0.04% covers.  Then, as now, I am sure there were debates about the lists.

In short, I think you have made your point that by 1910 (or so) most courses hired a gca.  That a few courses bucked that trend with great success and talented and hard working committees who were highly motivated doesn't change the fact that it was the trend to hire a gca even at that early stage in the profession.  The fact that so many early courses (presumably homemade) were being remodeled by 1910 to keep up is another factor suggesting that things were evolving fast and course quality was perhaps being thought of as important, compared to getting them open in earlier efforts.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #273 on: September 20, 2010, 07:25:40 AM »
Guys,

I don't care if we pick spring or fall of 1910, but we're still talking about Tom Mac's list having a considerable number of courses that weren't even OPEN in 1910, or with massive changes that might have been planned in 1910, but implemented over the next few years.

If this thread is trying to to make any point at all, it can't be a moving target.

Tom Mac picked 1910...guess why....because that's the year Merion started planning their new course.

If this thread is to have any relevance to that decision-making process, it can't be vapor-ware.

If Columbia opened in 1912, then it shouldn't be on the list.

If Mayfield opened in 1911, it shouldn't be here, and so on.

Otherwise, once again, here we are with Tmac having no confidence to actually stick to a date that is the point of his argument, and it's a big waste of time.

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #274 on: September 20, 2010, 07:27:30 AM »
The number of courses a club considering a new course could look to in 1910 that were;

1) Solely designed by a golf professional

2) Already open for play and therefore viewable as to achieved results

3) Not already been significantly revised by an amateur such as Walter Travis

and

4) Not significantly revised based on recommendations of a professional in 1910 with changes likely not yet in the ground, we're left with...

the following courses as examples of the excellent work and pinnacles of over a decade of achievement by professional golfer up until 1910.


Beverly - G.O'Neil (1908)

Belmont Springs - D.Ross (1908)

Minikahda - W.Watson/D.Foulis (1899), J.Jaffray/R.Taylor (1906)

Atlantic City - J.Reid (1897), H.Barker (1909)

Baltusrol - L.Keller (1895), T.Gourlay (1896), G.Low (1908-10)??

Englewood - J.Hobens (1905)

Apawamis - T.Bendelow (1899), H.Strong (1906-10)?

Fox Hills - P.King/D.Brown (1901)

Waverly - H.Barker (1910)???


Interestingly, with few exceptions, and despite their supposed excellence in 1910, almost every one of these courses was completely re-designed from scratch or went NLE within a decade or two.

I'd also say that if this is the great architectural legacy of HH Barker, thank God Merion never used him as Real Estate Developer Joseph Connell had apparently suggested to them.   Thankfully, they were  intent on following other clubs who stayed true to the amateur model of developing the course themselves, as all the best courses in America at that time had done..   Even his arguably best work at Columbia was soon revamped by Travis.  

In fact, is there a course today where Barker's work can still be viewed?   Has anything at all of his supposed brilliance survived without being redesigned??

We'll look more at Apawamis later today.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 07:46:20 AM by MCirba »