[Tim Martin]

Bill: I think your emotions are getting in the way of your objectivity.  Taking Fowler is pure guesswork on Pavin's part - his is a flashy kid with no track record and will have little in common with the other guys on the team.  Sure, he has a chance to do well but the downside is far too risky.  Who do you pair him with in the two man events? Kim knows the guys, has played in Ryder Cup and Presidents Cup and is not the playboy he was back a few years ago.  If anything, Kim had the surgery just so he could play in the Ryder Cup which shows a true dedication.  

Jerry, check back with me after the event!

A Bubba Watson - Rickie Fowler pairing would be explosive!

Bill-I`m with you. I love the Fowler pick and agree that him and Bubba could be a great pairing.

[CJ Carder]

Ben:

Forgive me -- the President's Cup. O'Hair is a big time talent -- Fowler has great upside but a Ryder Cup is too soon for him. Kim's crash could have had Pavin go in plenty of directions. Fowler will have a major adjustment and I think better American talent was left on the sidelines.

Talent left on the sidelines?  Maybe.  But out of the top 15 in the points standings, only 4 were left off the team entirely (and at least 3 would have been left off in any year previous to them giving the captain 4 picks instead of 2).    

A lot of people here seem to be ignoring that Cink was ranked 14th in the points standings at the Deutsche Bank this weekend and was also coming off 4 straight Top 25 finishes from the Bridgestone, PGA, and the 2 playoff events.  In my book, that means he's not playing too bad.

As for the whole Fowler debate, I think he's got a ton of upside, much more than people seem to give him credit for.  He plays the game naturally (he's not a golf school robot) and he does have an exceptional amateur match play record.  Ryder Cup too soon?  Couldn't one have said the same thing about AK in 2008?

On the whole, I really like the picks.  Better talent may have been left on the sidelines, but the 4 picks were designed to pick the guys playing best right now and, as others have mentioned, not too many people stood out from the crowd.  You have to think though that JB and AK were the first two guys out.

ps - honestly, how many people would've picked Jeff Overton had he not made it on points?

[JNC Lyon]

And there was what, no pressure in the first THREE rounds of the PGA?  Really?  The fact that he was there to win it going into the final day shows that he has the consistent game to be there.  This whole idea of "he collapsed under pressure" is garbage.  Don't you think there is pressure every time you tee it up?  If someone can't play golf "under pressure," he's not going to be on the PGA Tour, period.  Consistency is what we are looking for here, because it gives players the best chance to succeed on any given week.  That's why plodders often do better in Ryder Cup play than streakier guys.  Scott Verplank and Cink have been solid in past years because of that.

CJ, I think you are right that no one would have picked Overton had he not made it on points.  But of course he deserves to be on the team because he is soild and consistent.  He and Kuchar and Dustin Johnson made the team because they play well week in and week out.  Flashier guys, like Fowler, or Barnes, or Holmes, or AK, or O'Hair, just aren't consistent.  Therefore, they didn't make the team on points.

[Adam Lawrence]

I think the Ryder Cup is going to be much closer than many people think.

I think it's a real shame the Ryder Cup in Europe is being pimped round to the highest bidder. Holding it at courses such as Celtic Manor does not help the game and does not showcase good architecture.

Tom - on one level I wholly agree with you, but it shouldn't be ignored that bringing the Ryder Cup to Wales has been the anchor of a massive boom in golf tourism to Wales. The marketing campaign that went with the RC win has essentially made Wales a golf destination when it wasn't before. It's a very impressive achievement.

[Phil McDade]

And there was what, no pressure in the first THREE rounds of the PGA?  Really?  The fact that he was there to win it going into the final day shows that he has the consistent game to be there.  This whole idea of "he collapsed under pressure" is garbage.  Don't you think there is pressure every time you tee it up?  If someone can't play golf "under pressure," he's not going to be on the PGA Tour, period.  Consistency is what we are looking for here, because it gives players the best chance to succeed on any given week.  That's why plodders often do better in Ryder Cup play than streakier guys.  Scott Verplank and Cink have been solid in past years because of that.

Watney was tied for 6th after the first round of this year's PGA; 2nd after the 2nd round, and the leader by three strokes after three rounds. He had never before led a major going into the final round. He shot an 81 (no one in the tournament that day shot worse), which was 10-to-14 strokes worse than anyone else who contended for the title. If that's not a collapse, I'm not sure what is.

I think the RCup demands a mix of consistency and streakiness. You want guys like Mahan who go on birdie binges, because they can be so dominating in fourballs. But you also want guys who can consistently hit fairways and greens and make 8-foot par-saving putts, because they can be deadly in foursomes (like Z. Johnson).

Watney strikes me as a solid player; just based on RCup points alone, he's been consistently one of the better US players over the past two years. But the RCup experience is a white-hot one, and I can't imagine Pavin didn't evaluate what Watney did under the greatest pressure he's faced so far as a professional -- holding a three-stroke leader entering the final round of a major.

[JNC Lyon]

And there was what, no pressure in the first THREE rounds of the PGA?  Really?  The fact that he was there to win it going into the final day shows that he has the consistent game to be there.  This whole idea of "he collapsed under pressure" is garbage.  Don't you think there is pressure every time you tee it up?  If someone can't play golf "under pressure," he's not going to be on the PGA Tour, period.  Consistency is what we are looking for here, because it gives players the best chance to succeed on any given week.  That's why plodders often do better in Ryder Cup play than streakier guys.  Scott Verplank and Cink have been solid in past years because of that.

Watney was tied for 6th after the first round of this year's PGA; 2nd after the 2nd round, and the leader by three strokes after three rounds. He had never before led a major going into the final round. He shot an 81 (no one in the tournament that day shot worse), which was 10-to-14 strokes worse than anyone else who contended for the title. If that's not a collapse, I'm not sure what is.

I think the RCup demands a mix of consistency and streakiness. You want guys like Mahan who go on birdie binges, because they can be so dominating in fourballs. But you also want guys who can consistently hit fairways and greens and make 8-foot par-saving putts, because they can be deadly in foursomes (like Z. Johnson).

Watney strikes me as a solid player; just based on RCup points alone, he's been consistently one of the better US players over the past two years. But the RCup experience is a white-hot one, and I can't imagine Pavin didn't evaluate what Watney did under the greatest pressure he's faced so far as a professional -- holding a three-stroke leader entering the final round of a major.

The streakiness argument doesn't add up for me.  Sure, someone CAN go on birdie binges is useful, but only if they actually DO go on birdie binges.  There is also the chance that they will go cold and lose every match they play.  There is a much greater chance that the streaky player will go cold than a chance that a consistent player will go cold.  Besides, I think every one of those guys is capable of making birdies to win holes.

I still don't like this assumption that Watney doesn't perform under pressure.  He plays on the PGA Tour!  He has won on the PGA Tour.  He has consistently high finishes on tour.  Does one bad round at the wrong time cancel out all those facts and demonstrate that he cannot handle pressure golf?  Players feel pressure every time they tee it up at a tour event and have thousands of people watching them.  Is that sort of pressure measurably different from the pressure players feel at a major championship?  Forget what golf writers who wax poetically about the game have said in the past.  There is not evidence to suggest that the pressure of a final round of a major is significantly greater than the already-immense pressure of playing in any given tour event.  Sure, there are higher scores in the final rounds of majors, but the courses tend to be at their most difficult during these rounds, so it makes sense that scores are higher.  Ultimately, Watney's performance in one round should indicate his ability to perform under pressure.  His day-to-day performance on the PGA Tour is the real indicator.

[Dan_Callahan]

I haven't been a big Fowler fan, but I went to the Deutsche Bank on Monday and was converted. And it had nothing to do with golf. In the press area off the 18th green, the "old pros" like Davis Love did their interviews, signed an autograph or two, never broke a smile, and had almost no interaction with the crowd (mostly little kids trying to get stuff signed). Bubba and Fowler came off the course and started signing everything (Fowler in head to toe OSU orange). Then Bubba grabbed Fowler's hat off his head, signed it, and chucked it to the crowd. Fowler walked away and went into the locker room and we figured he was being a temperamental little golfer and was pissed. Instead, he came out with an armload of Puma hats of every color imaginable. He gave a stack to Bubba and the two of them started tossing them to the crowd and signed everything in sight. It was EXACTLY what golf needs and is such a far cry from the buttoned up and robotic personalities we've come to expect now that it is a big money sport. As for the Ryder Cup, the chemistry between these two guys is great. I could easily see them being paired up and acting like a TEAM, not like individuals doing their own thing. It's just what the US was missing over the last 10 years and the Europeans seemed to have an abundance of.

As for picking Tiger, obviously he's had a bad year by his standards and is rebuilding his swing. However, I stood behind him on the range for about 45 minutes. Next to him were JB, Hunter Mahan, Cink, Cabrera, Na, and a few others. Nobody hits the ball like Tiger. On the range, he is absolute perfection. We saw him hitting 3-wood to a green about 270 yards out. If he hit 10 balls, 9 of them landed within 10 feet of each other in the front right portion of the green. The one miss was a high flair that came up about 10 yards short and right. His chipping and putting were remarkable. So even though he hasn't had a year that's lived up to expectations, he is still, in my opinion, the absolute best player on the US team, hands down. Nobody else is even close. Whether that translates to wins in the Cup remains to be seen, but the guy is in his own league.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I think the impact that Anthony Kim had two years ago was huge...I personally would have given him the nod ahaed of Fowler.
Then again hiS recent series of 'indiscretions" proabaly did not fit well with the Capt who also co heads the bible study group.
I dont see them exactly seeing eye to eye on much....
I like Kims attitude on the course, and his performance last time would have got some serious attention from my side...that being the Euro's.
One miss per catain on the picks for me..
Fowler ahead of Kim and Harrington ahaed od Casey or Rose...both errors if I was Captain....which I am not!

[Phil McDade]

"Ultimately, Watney's performance in one round should (not) indicate his ability to perform under pressure.  His day-to-day performance on the PGA Tour is the real indicator."

Ryder Cup point standings:

1 Phil Mickelson 6,095.063
2 Hunter Mahan 4,095.620
3 Bubba Watson 3,894.319
4 Jim Furyk 3,763.642
5 Steve Stricker 3,697.976
6 Dustin Johnson 3,573.804
7 Jeff Overton 3,533.148
8 Matt Kuchar 3,415.853
9 Anthony Kim 3,274.684
10 Lucas Glover 3,052.874
11 Zach Johnson 3,051.897
12 Tiger Woods 2,902.580
13 Bo Van Pelt 2,662.234
14 Stewart Cink 2,644.833
15 Ben Crane 2,629.796
16 Ricky Barnes 2,610.171
17 Nick Watney 2,557.441
18 Sean O'Hair 2,417.574
19 J.B. Holmes 2,390.710
20 Rickie Fowler 2,353.320

JNC:

By your measure, Pavin should've picked Kim, Glover, Z. Johnson and Woods. If you're argument is Fowler vs. Watney, based on consistency, Glover and Kim have a much bigger edge over Watney.

"There is no evidence to suggest that the pressure of a final round of a major is significantly greater than the already-immense pressure of playing in any given tour event."

I find it hard to believe any professional golfer on Tour would agree with this statement.

[James Boon]

I think this has the potential to be a great and close match.

I think Cink gets in based on his experience and having a major in his bag, a little like Harrington. I'm suprised by Fowler but it would be great to see him out against Rory in the singles!

From a personal European perspective, everyone of the American team has something about them, apart from Jeff Overton? Have I missed something? Has he even won anything? (Now I've said that i suspect he will make me eat my words!) 

Cheers,

James

[JNC Lyon]

"Ultimately, Watney's performance in one round should (not) indicate his ability to perform under pressure.  His day-to-day performance on the PGA Tour is the real indicator."

Ryder Cup point standings:

1 Phil Mickelson 6,095.063
2 Hunter Mahan 4,095.620
3 Bubba Watson 3,894.319
4 Jim Furyk 3,763.642
5 Steve Stricker 3,697.976
6 Dustin Johnson 3,573.804
7 Jeff Overton 3,533.148
8 Matt Kuchar 3,415.853
9 Anthony Kim 3,274.684
10 Lucas Glover 3,052.874
11 Zach Johnson 3,051.897
12 Tiger Woods 2,902.580
13 Bo Van Pelt 2,662.234
14 Stewart Cink 2,644.833
15 Ben Crane 2,629.796
16 Ricky Barnes 2,610.171
17 Nick Watney 2,557.441
18 Sean O'Hair 2,417.574
19 J.B. Holmes 2,390.710
20 Rickie Fowler 2,353.320

JNC:

By your measure, Pavin should've picked Kim, Glover, Z. Johnson and Woods. If you're argument is Fowler vs. Watney, based on consistency, Glover and Kim have a much bigger edge over Watney.

"There is no evidence to suggest that the pressure of a final round of a major is significantly greater than the already-immense pressure of playing in any given tour event."

I find it hard to believe any professional golfer on Tour would agree with this statement.

I suppose the points standings would have been one way to decide consistency.  However, I don't think the Ryder Cup points standings are a good measure of consistency.  For one, they rely on last year's performance as a show of "fairness" towards the guys who happened to play well last year.  Check out the Golfweek Sagarin Index, which measures the performance of players in the last 52 weeks.  Who pops up at number 2? Matt Kuchar.  Bo Van Pelt is 13th, and Nick Watney is 20th.  Kim and Glover are not even in the top 50.  Clearly, Watney, Van Pelt and Ben Crane (18) have the edge over guys like Kim and Glover for consistency over the last year.  At second look, Overton is not as good as I thought--he's not top 50 either.

I'm guessing not too many guys would agree with that statement, but does that really make the statement false?  I guess I would need more evidence than simply hearsay from a guy who's "been there."

[JNC Lyon]

I think this has the potential to be a great and close match.

I think Cink gets in based on his experience and having a major in his bag, a little like Harrington. I'm suprised by Fowler but it would be great to see him out against Rory in the singles!

From a personal European perspective, everyone of the American team has something about them, apart from Jeff Overton? Have I missed something? Has he even won anything? (Now I've said that i suspect he will make me eat my words!) 

Cheers,

James

James,

Jeff Overton set the record for fastest round ever played in the PGA Championship: 2 hours, 9 minutes.  Do you need to know anything else?

[Thomas McQuillan]

I'm seeing a lot of americans saying they would like to see pairings such as Fowler and Bubba, D. Johnson and Mickleson?Maybe in the fourballs but not in the foursomes,you want a player like a Zach Johnson, Luke Donald or Steve Stricker to partner one of them in the foursomes.

[James Boon]

I think this has the potential to be a great and close match.

I think Cink gets in based on his experience and having a major in his bag, a little like Harrington. I'm suprised by Fowler but it would be great to see him out against Rory in the singles!

From a personal European perspective, everyone of the American team has something about them, apart from Jeff Overton? Have I missed something? Has he even won anything? (Now I've said that i suspect he will make me eat my words!) 

Cheers,

James

James,

Jeff Overton set the record for fastest round ever played in the PGA Championship: 2 hours, 9 minutes.  Do you need to know anything else?

JNC,

Maybe Monty should have picked Langer to slow him down a bit? 

Cheers,

James

[George Pazin]

I haven't been a big Fowler fan, but I went to the Deutsche Bank on Monday and was converted. And it had nothing to do with golf. In the press area off the 18th green, the "old pros" like Davis Love did their interviews, signed an autograph or two, never broke a smile, and had almost no interaction with the crowd (mostly little kids trying to get stuff signed). Bubba and Fowler came off the course and started signing everything (Fowler in head to toe OSU orange). Then Bubba grabbed Fowler's hat off his head, signed it, and chucked it to the crowd. Fowler walked away and went into the locker room and we figured he was being a temperamental little golfer and was pissed. Instead, he came out with an armload of Puma hats of every color imaginable. He gave a stack to Bubba and the two of them started tossing them to the crowd and signed everything in sight. It was EXACTLY what golf needs and is such a far cry from the buttoned up and robotic personalities we've come to expect now that it is a big money sport. As for the Ryder Cup, the chemistry between these two guys is great. I could easily see them being paired up and acting like a TEAM, not like individuals doing their own thing. It's just what the US was missing over the last 10 years and the Europeans seemed to have an abundance of.

Many thanks for sharing this story, it's just what the doctor ordered.

[Bill Brightly]

Cink doesn't have just any major...he won the British Open in 2009...and has two other top tens.

As someone who cant play links golf very well, I'd want a guy with a track record of being able to play in the UK. How "linksy" is the course?

[Mike Wagner]

If the course is linksy, I would have talked to Monty - if he agreed to pick Langer, I would have taken Watson (yes, Tom).....and made it the last pairing in singles.

[Thomas McQuillan]

wales in october is going to be an absolute sog-fest. its already bad in Ireland at the minute

[Pete_Pittock]

If the course is linksy, I would have talked to Monty - if he agreed to pick Langer, I would have taken Watson (yes, Tom).....and made it the last pairing in singles.

Mike,
Celtic Manor is anything but linksy according to this flyover which is at the bottom right of the results page from the ET event.
http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/season=2010/tournamentid=2010032/leaderboard/index.html

[PThomas]

I haven't been a big Fowler fan, but I went to the Deutsche Bank on Monday and was converted. And it had nothing to do with golf. In the press area off the 18th green, the "old pros" like Davis Love did their interviews, signed an autograph or two, never broke a smile, and had almost no interaction with the crowd (mostly little kids trying to get stuff signed). Bubba and Fowler came off the course and started signing everything (Fowler in head to toe OSU orange). Then Bubba grabbed Fowler's hat off his head, signed it, and chucked it to the crowd. Fowler walked away and went into the locker room and we figured he was being a temperamental little golfer and was pissed. Instead, he came out with an armload of Puma hats of every color imaginable. He gave a stack to Bubba and the two of them started tossing them to the crowd and signed everything in sight. It was EXACTLY what golf needs and is such a far cry from the buttoned up and robotic personalities we've come to expect now that it is a big money sport. As for the Ryder Cup, the chemistry between these two guys is great. I could easily see them being paired up and acting like a TEAM, not like individuals doing their own thing. It's just what the US was missing over the last 10 years and the Europeans seemed to have an abundance of.

a great story Dan...

Cink?  why pick him?

[Phil McDade]

a great story Dan...

Cink?  why pick him?

Paul:

Here's my guess (besides having played fairly consistent golf in the past two years)...

Pavin and Zinger are longtime Tour buddies. Zinger got a great deal of mileage last time around by pairing up -- not just in the matches, but in practices -- his veterans with his rookies. He had guys like Mickelson, Furyk, Cink and Leonard serve as leaders and mentors to small groups of players who hadn't played the RC before (Weekley, Holmes, and others). Thus, the Mickelson-Kim pairing, the Leonard-Mahan pairing, the Furyk-Perry pairing. Pavin has decent RCup experience on the team, but I'd argue he's handicapped in the Zinger approach by Tiger, who he had to pick and who has never mentored another golfer in his life (he's used to squishing them). I think Pavin wanted one more guy like that, who could guide guys like D. Johnson, Overton, Fowler, Kuchar and Bubba through the chaos and pressure of the RCup (esp. one hosted in Europe). Cink is really well-liked by a lot of players on Tour -- kind of a career grinder, but a guy who must be doing something right, as this is his 5th RCup team.

[Sean Leary]

a great story Dan...

Cink?  why pick him?

Paul:

Here's my guess (besides having played fairly consistent golf in the past two years)...

Pavin and Zinger are longtime Tour buddies. Zinger got a great deal of mileage last time around by pairing up -- not just in the matches, but in practices -- his veterans with his rookies. He had guys like Mickelson, Furyk, Cink and Leonard serve as leaders and mentors to small groups of players who hadn't played the RC before (Weekley, Holmes, and others). Thus, the Mickelson-Kim pairing, the Leonard-Mahan pairing, the Furyk-Perry pairing. Pavin has decent RCup experience on the team, but I'd argue he's handicapped in the Zinger approach by Tiger, who he had to pick and who has never mentored another golfer in his life (he's used to squishing them). I think Pavin wanted one more guy like that, who could guide guys like D. Johnson, Overton, Fowler, Kuchar and Bubba through the chaos and pressure of the RCup (esp. one hosted in Europe). Cink is really well-liked by a lot of players on Tour -- kind of a career grinder, but a guy who must be doing something right, as this is his 5th RCup team.

I thought I read that Pavin hasn't even talked to Zinger about the RC. Surprising since they are both God guys, aren't they?

[Phil McDade]

I thought I read that Pavin hasn't even talked to Zinger about the RC. Surprising since they are both God guys, aren't they?

I'm not sure I believe that they never talked. Zinger captained the first RCup win for the US in years, and the two know each other really well from past RCup experiences. Seems unlikely Pavin, a pretty savvy guy, wouldn't talk to Zinger at some point.

[Sean Leary]

I thought I read that Pavin hasn't even talked to Zinger about the RC. Surprising since they are both God guys, aren't they?

I'm not sure I believe that they never talked. Zinger captained the first RCup win for the US in years, and the two know each other really well from past RCup experiences. Seems unlikely Pavin, a pretty savvy guy, wouldn't talk to Zinger at some point.

You are probably right. Just thought I read that somewhere.

[Bill Brightly]

Doesn't sound like Pavin talked to Azinger>>>

By Alex Miceli September 6, 2010 7:12 p.m. Archive NORTON, Mass. –

“Charley Hoffman is a lock,” Azinger said from his home in Florida after the final putt dropped at the Deutsche Bank Championship. “The purpose of getting four picks at the end was because I valued confidence over experience, and Hoffman won by five after shooting a 62.”

Azinger’s mantra of confidence over experience was crystalized from his first Ryder Cup when he played his best and had no experience in the cup process. That explains why he never thought about experience when he made his picks.

“If Corey Pavin asked me I would say Hoffman,” Azinger said. “But he doesn’t need me – he has four assistant captains and he has been focused on it enough to know what he wants to do.”

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