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Scott Warren

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Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #150 on: September 06, 2010, 04:30:15 AM »
Mac's comparison gives Jack credit for Muirfield Village and Harbour Town. By the same token, you'd need to give - for example - Tom Doak the courses he worked on with Pete Dye (and the others with their mentors)... but of course Doak would not need those courses included to pad out his top five.

As it stands from Mac's list, Jack's five best courses include a Dye, a Muirhead and a co-design with Doak that Tom has said he routed.

Of course none of this is meant to argue that the work done by Nicklaus Design is without merit, but "arguably the best designer of the modern era" is a massive call that IMO, no one has come close to substantiating.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 05:08:11 AM by Scott Warren »

Jud_T

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Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #151 on: September 06, 2010, 05:40:38 AM »
Has Jack turned any work away or referred another GCA?  And who's been more profitable, Nicklaus or Fazio groups?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jim Nugent

Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #152 on: September 06, 2010, 07:28:31 AM »
You mean to tell me Jack didn't route Cabo del Sol either!


My impression is Jim Lipe did most of the heavy lifting. 

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #153 on: September 06, 2010, 08:24:01 AM »

So are we saying that we cannot define Jack’s GCA legacy due to the confusion the Designers/Architects have found themselves in regards determining what constitutes a design.

For the moment let’s forget Jack and consider the actual problem - Come on guys can’t we agree on the simple matter of who designed the course, be it under construction or being modified.

Do you realise what you are doing to the world of golf or to future generations? You are condemning them to years of Merion type debates. I can just see it now the great, great grandsons of Tom (P) and David (M) battling it out for decades trying to define what Jack actually did or did not do and who was this guy Doaks - and is he being credited for the works of others or did Dye do all the Doak's routings – as apparently the rumours of today seem to indicate.  :o

See the mess you will leave, the potential open war fair, they may be called ‘The Great, Great Grandsons Wars of Legacy’ be they Pt I;  Pt II;  Pt III. Plus some of today’s designers might be denied credit for the work they have actually done (come to think of it that it might be the intention reading some of the reviews)

So come on, let’s have the designer’s name, the man/woman behind the design, not interested in who's bunkers they are, or the Greens, they are constructed but the routing surely points the way.   

Let’s not forget that its Jack’ legacy that’s at stake here so come on, shape up, define the designer or are we a little jealous and the intention is to deny Jack a GCA legacy, wow that's clever, but nasty. ;D

Melvyn

PS This is no rant but a serious comment on the crazy world of GCA in our modern times.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #154 on: September 06, 2010, 08:35:16 AM »
Melvyn...

I agree with the sentiment of your post, but disagree with some of the statements.

I firmly believe that we know who designed these golf courses...at least the bulk of them.  Merion.  C'mon.  I think we got it.  All of that debate is over minor details that won't change the person who gets design credit.

Think of Old MacDonald.  I believe it will go down as a Tom Doak course.  But of course you could make a thread that debates for countless hours that George B., Brad K., Jim U., and probably many others should have credit.  But it is a Tom Doak course with some help from his friends. 

But maybe that is the point, they all have help from their friends.  Perhaps that should be part of peoples legacy.  Who were their "friends" during their designs and how did those "friends" do when they went out on their own.

CBM's friends turned out to be Raynor and then Banks.

Pete Dye gave Nicklaus his start and Doak worked him as well.

Anyone move out from Nicklaus' firm and be successful on their own?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #155 on: September 06, 2010, 08:42:06 AM »

Mac

There was some humour within my post outside wanting to define the actual designers of all courses both old , new and in the planning stage.

Melvyn

Garland Bayley

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Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #156 on: September 06, 2010, 11:44:16 AM »
...
Anyone move out from Nicklaus' firm and be successful on their own?

Bob Cupp and some others.
I'm sure others here would know better than I do.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David_Tepper

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Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #157 on: September 06, 2010, 11:58:45 AM »
"Anyone move out from Nicklaus' firm and be successful on their own?"

Mac -

I believe Jay Morrish was one of the senior gca's in the Nicklaus shop before partnering with Tom Weiskopf.  He then split with TW to set up his own shop with his son, Carter.

http://cartermorrish.net/

DT
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 03:35:52 PM by David_Tepper »

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #158 on: September 06, 2010, 12:46:33 PM »
Think of Old MacDonald.  I believe it will go down as a Tom Doak course.  But of course you could make a thread that debates for countless hours that George B., Brad K., Jim U., and probably many others should have credit.  But it is a Tom Doak course with some help from his friends. 

You do realize both the scorecard and Bandon's website give design credit to Doak & Urbina?   

Mac Plumart

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Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #159 on: September 06, 2010, 01:10:06 PM »
Yep.  I knew someone would bring that up.  I was waiting to see who!   ;)

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #160 on: September 06, 2010, 02:19:48 PM »
You mean to tell me Jack didn't route Cabo del Sol either!


My impression is Jim Lipe did most of the heavy lifting. 

Jim did in fact comtribute his fair share to The Ocean Course and conitnues to do so but he was actually not the original design associate on the project. I would defer to Jim to comment on the original routing but would not expect him to jump into these shark infested waters.

kurt bowman

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Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #161 on: September 06, 2010, 03:00:18 PM »
Guys,

On the comparison below I think you all are forgetting something important. Nearly all of JN's courses have been in housing development's. I'm not sure that is a fair comparison when your comparing "bodies of work". Sebonack is the only course I can think of other than Dismal River that JN has designed without a housing component.

Top 5 Nicklaus Courses
Muirfield Village- Housing development
Harbour Town- Housing development
Cabo de Sol (Ocean)- Housing development
Sebonack- Core
Castle Pines- Housing development


Top 5 Tom Doak Courses… Were any of these routed with housing in mind?
Pacific Dunes- Core
Cape Kidnappers-Core
Barnbougle Dunes
Sebonack-Core
Ballyneal-Core


Top 5 C&C courses… I think all of these are core golf courses, without housing?
Sand Hills
Friar’s Head
Old Sandwich
Bandon  Trails
Colorado Golf Club

Top 5 Fazio courses…
Shadow Creek-Core
Wade Hampton-Housing
Butler National-Core?
Dallas National-Housing
Victoria National-Housing?

Top 5 Dye courses…
Whistling Straits- No housing
Kiawah Ocean- No housing near
The Golf Club- No housing
TPC Sawgrass- Core with little housing
Harbour Town or maybe Casa de Campo- Both have housing

Do you not all agree there is a difference? I think they fall in a different category.

Kurt


Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #162 on: September 06, 2010, 03:35:11 PM »
Kurt,

What I notice is that Jack shares credit or was the junior designer on THREE OF THE FIVE courses in his top five.

If that isn't a damning indictment on the claim that he is the best designer of the modern age, I don't know what is.

Jim Nugent

Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #163 on: September 06, 2010, 03:38:19 PM »
Greg, I'm sorry you feel the attitude is harsh.  If what I've said about how Jack works is wrong, or misleading, please tell me how.  If what I've said is right, then IMO he not an architect.  I am certainly not the final authority on this, or any authority.  

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #164 on: September 06, 2010, 03:51:27 PM »
Greg, I'm sorry you feel the attitude is harsh.  If what I've said about how Jack works is wrong, or misleading, please tell me how.  If what I've said is right, then IMO he not an architect.  I am certainly not the final authority on this, or any authority.  

Jim , No worries and as noted I cannot vouch for who was responsible for the routing of The Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol. If I had to guess and assign responsibility it would be:

Greg Letche - 30%
Jim Lipe - 30%
Jack Nicklaus - 40%

Mind you that could be as far off as some random guy from Phuket throwing a number at you.

"Buckeye" Bowman - Your post could be summed up simply by saying Passion versus Business adn which comes first for different designers. I could see Tom Doak going to the other end of the earth for only expenses were the opportunity for a great course there whereas Jack's firm would do the same course but put together the requisite partners to grow it beyond "just a golf course" and reap the fees and benefst associated with the course and project. Not a knock on Jack either. 

kurt bowman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #165 on: September 06, 2010, 03:59:00 PM »
Scott,

I'm not trying to make make the claim that he is the greatest architect of the modern age (you all can argue that), rather trying to say that when comparing "bodies of work" I don't think an apples to apples comparison is being made. Housing development golf courses are tough to compare to raw undeveloped sights. JN and company have designed 99% housing golf courses.

I would also argue about JN being the junior architect on three of those projects. Harbour Town yes, MVGC no way, and Sebonack I would say equal. At MVGC you could argue that DM did the routing (with JN) which still exists, but so many years and changes have transpired since.

One other point I would make about JN's designs, is that I think he is one of the more versatile living GCA"S. For example, go to Palm Beach, play Bear Lakes, Lost Tree, Bear's Club, NPB Country Club. Pretty diverse IMHO.

Kurt

Kurt

Jim Nugent

Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #166 on: September 06, 2010, 05:07:22 PM »
Kurt, you made some real interesting points.   On Jack's housing project courses, did he have to change or limit his routings, due to the housing construction?  Did this make the courses weaker?  Did it make Cabo del Sol weaker, e.g.?  Did it make Muirfield Village weaker? 

btw, I think Merion faced the same challenge.   



 

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #167 on: September 06, 2010, 06:51:55 PM »
If we are to distinguish his legacy, don't we need to examine his trends? If there are any. Assuming a designer learns more and more as they go along, his designs should reflect that evolution. Shouldn't it?

When I first saw the New Course at Grand Cypress, my initial thought was why hadn't JN built anything remotely similar to it, for the next 30 years. The openness and freedom, he emulated from the Old Course was evident in the New.

Having played a few of his most recent works, Like, DR, The Chase and The Concession, I see a trend of getting back to some of that freedom and variety, that are stereotypically absent on many of his courses. I'm not sure where a place like Ocean Hammock falls into his chronology, but that's another open, free-ish design. Isn't it?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #168 on: September 06, 2010, 07:17:43 PM »
Guys,

On the comparison below I think you all are forgetting something important. Nearly all of JN's courses have been in housing development's. I'm not sure that is a fair comparison when your comparing "bodies of work". Sebonack is the only course I can think of other than Dismal River that JN has designed without a housing component.

Top 5 Nicklaus Courses
Muirfield Village- Housing development
Harbour Town- Housing development
Cabo de Sol (Ocean)- Housing development
Sebonack- Core
Castle Pines- Housing development


Top 5 Tom Doak Courses… Were any of these routed with housing in mind?
Pacific Dunes- Core
Cape Kidnappers-Core
Barnbougle Dunes
Sebonack-Core
Ballyneal-Core


Top 5 C&C courses… I think all of these are core golf courses, without housing?
Sand Hills
Friar’s Head
Old Sandwich
Bandon  Trails
Colorado Golf Club

Top 5 Fazio courses…
Shadow Creek-Core
Wade Hampton-Housing
Butler National-Core?
Dallas National-Housing
Victoria National-Housing?

Top 5 Dye courses…
Whistling Straits- No housing
Kiawah Ocean- No housing near
The Golf Club- No housing
TPC Sawgrass- Core with little housing
Harbour Town or maybe Casa de Campo- Both have housing

Do you not all agree there is a difference? I think they fall in a different category.

Kurt



Kurt:

I would agree with you that building a golf course that is just a golf course, and not a housing development, is a huge advantage in having a course ranked as one of the best in the world.  It's all about priorities, and those priorities are usually pretty clear to the panelist types before they even get to the first tee.  In development settings, design compromises are always being made to some extent.  Not even Cabo Del Sol gets to use ALL of the oceanfront property for golf [as Bandon Dunes does].

But, it's also true that Jack hasn't gotten hired to do many jobs where golf is the only priority.  I suppose in some cases it might have been because his fee was too high to justify for a "just golf" project, and he didn't want to undermine his fee structure to take the project.  Perhaps there were even one or two projects where Greg T's fantasy is for real, and Jack put together enough partners to reap the fees from changing the priority away from golf, although I can't think of where he might be talking about.  Generally, though, when someone like Herb Kohler or Mike Keiser or Dick Youngscap or Mark Parsinen or even Donald Trump was going to hire an architect for "just golf" over the past twenty years, they have hired other designers than Jack, even if they weren't well known.


Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #169 on: September 06, 2010, 07:41:01 PM »
Guys,

On the comparison below I think you all are forgetting something important. Nearly all of JN's courses have been in housing development's. I'm not sure that is a fair comparison when your comparing "bodies of work". Sebonack is the only course I can think of other than Dismal River that JN has designed without a housing component.

Top 5 Nicklaus Courses
Muirfield Village- Housing development
Harbour Town- Housing development
Cabo de Sol (Ocean)- Housing development
Sebonack- Core
Castle Pines- Housing development


Top 5 Tom Doak Courses… Were any of these routed with housing in mind?
Pacific Dunes- Core
Cape Kidnappers-Core
Barnbougle Dunes
Sebonack-Core
Ballyneal-Core


Top 5 C&C courses… I think all of these are core golf courses, without housing?
Sand Hills
Friar’s Head
Old Sandwich
Bandon  Trails
Colorado Golf Club

Top 5 Fazio courses…
Shadow Creek-Core
Wade Hampton-Housing
Butler National-Core?
Dallas National-Housing
Victoria National-Housing?

Top 5 Dye courses…
Whistling Straits- No housing
Kiawah Ocean- No housing near
The Golf Club- No housing
TPC Sawgrass- Core with little housing
Harbour Town or maybe Casa de Campo- Both have housing

Do you not all agree there is a difference? I think they fall in a different category.

Kurt



Kurt:

I would agree with you that building a golf course that is just a golf course, and not a housing development, is a huge advantage in having a course ranked as one of the best in the world.  It's all about priorities, and those priorities are usually pretty clear to the panelist types before they even get to the first tee.  In development settings, design compromises are always being made to some extent.  Not even Cabo Del Sol gets to use ALL of the oceanfront property for golf [as Bandon Dunes does].

But, it's also true that Jack hasn't gotten hired to do many jobs where golf is the only priority.  I suppose in some cases it might have been because his fee was too high to justify for a "just golf" project, and he didn't want to undermine his fee structure to take the project.  Perhaps there were even one or two projects where Greg T's fantasy is for real, and Jack put together enough partners to reap the fees from changing the priority away from golf, although I can't think of where he might be talking about.  Generally, though, when someone like Herb Kohler or Mike Keiser or Dick Youngscap or Mark Parsinen or even Donald Trump was going to hire an architect for "just golf" over the past twenty years, they have hired other designers than Jack, even if they weren't well known.



Tom, I fear you misunderstood my "fantasy". I am saying that the business engine at the Nicklaus organization brings the parties together... site, financing, developer, archtect and build a development course while commanding the regular fee and also participating in some form in the rest of the project.

Unfortunately in a destination such as Cabo you could never justify using the oceanfront land for golf any longer. 20 years ago they got away with it to the extent they did because they saw it as destination building. One need only look at El Dorado and Chileno Bay to see the compromise made 20 years after the destination was defined by an "anchor" course. Jack's original routings at Chileno made spectacular use of the ocean front on each of the two courses. The first Fazio course does not get within a mile of the ocean (gove or take a few hundred yards). Considering 1/4 acre lots could go for as much as 12-15 million building a 600 yard par five along the coast is not reality these days.

I believe you found out first hand at Bahia de los Sueños about being restricted by development (though the resulting course is still very very good). For what it's worth they tell folks the dunes were protected... sounds good until one sees the signs identifying lots 1-9 just to the south of 18 green/1 tee.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #170 on: September 06, 2010, 08:38:17 PM »
I find Adam Clayman’s last post very interesting.  It reminds me that we are all who we are today due to what we’ve experienced in our lifetimes.  To find out what Jack is, perhaps we should look at the path he took to get where he is…

From his youth, he built a resume that makes him arguably the greatest golfer in the history of the game.

It is my understanding that when Pete Dye built The Golf Club just outside of Columbus, Ohio he had Mr. Nicklaus come out and hit a few shots here or there in an attempt to help Pete put together a hole or two.

Then in 1967 (?), Mr. Dye worked with Jack Nicklaus to build Harbour Town.  It is my understanding that Mr. Dye really built the course, but again Jack contributed here or there, hit a shot or two, and advised on how the holes might play.

Then he built, arguably, his best golf course, Muirfield Village.  Here is some verbage from Golf.com about MVGC,

“Nicklaus first conceived of Muirfield Village while competing in the 1966 Masters. Wouldn't it be great, he thought, if he could do something like Bobby Jones did with the Augusta National experience, but do it in Columbus, Ohio, where he grew up. Back then, the Bear was associated with architect/land planner Desmond Muirhead, who had a talented associate in his employ named Jay Morrish. Together, they crafted what quickly became one of the PGA Tour's most admired golf courses.

Critics lauded "The House That Jack Built," as much for its flawless conditioning as for its design hallmarks, but every bit as impressive was how Nicklaus seamlessly integrated spectator areas into the closing holes, using hillsides and amphitheater-style mounding to provide fans with unimpeded views of the action…

Immediately after Nicklaus finished Muirfield Village, he formed his own design firm, with Jay Morrish and Bob Cupp as his lead associates. They quickly fashioned a number of top-tier courses designed specifically to host tournaments, such as Glen Abbey (Canadian Open), The Greenbrier course at the Greenbrier (1979 Ryder Cup) and Shoal Creek (1984 and 1990 PGA Championship). These were intended to be fair, but relentlessly challenging layouts that would test the pros

By the 1980s, however, Nicklaus began crafting courses that played hard for the pros — even if no tournament would ever be held there. Course design had trended towards extremely dramatic, but extremely difficult courses and Nicklaus obliged his developer-clients by doing just that. Prevailing opinion went something like this: "Jack builds gorgeous courses that are impossible to play, maintain or afford. They're built for his game: long, with shallow, elevated, fiercely fortified greens that require soaring, faded approaches."


Jack responded to this criticism by saying, “eventually I began to listen to the critics. I started trying to balance my work. This was a significant step up for me as designer."


Also in the article Eric Smith posted I thought there were some pretty interesting snippets.  Check this one out.  It touches on a site visit from Mr. Nicklaus and highlights his interaction with this crew…


“At each stop, Jack machine-guns advice: Raise this, lower that, soften this, lose that bunker, make a lake, fill one in, bring in a cliff, put a waste area over there, move the turn point. The poor contractor has to figure out how to make it happen….

Then they come to No. 7. This hole is a blank canvas, the first in a series where no real planning has been done. Jack stops his vehicle. All the others halt, too. The golf-shirt entourage gathers. Cope slides his notebook into one of Jack's hands, a pencil into the other. Jack looks at both the tips and the members' tees. There is something funny about the Golden Bear imagining how a duffer would get around a course. As he has gotten older, and his own game has slipped, he's grown better at this. He doesn't just imagine a younger version of himself on the tee. He also imagines his grandson. "I've started to think like that," he says. "It's like trying to think in Spanish."

Today, the issue is how far Joe Golfer will be able to hit the ball in the air. Jack looks out from the tee. "That's not much of a carry," he says.

Senior designer Jim Lipe sits in the back. "It's a helluva carry for me," he says.

"You're a frigging old man," Jack says.

"I've got to hit it up the right side?"

"Here's what you've got, Jim," Jack says. "You've got 260 here. Members are gonna have 225. Ladies are gonna have 185 maybe, something like that, to get into that area. You play up here. You're an old man. That's where I play."

"Well, OK."

"Do you think that's right?" Jack asks. "If you don't like it, say so."

This is a critical moment. Sometimes, a staffer says, he really wants to know. Other times, he's thinking aloud and doesn't want anyone to talk him down. Or at least that's how some of the staff perceive it, especially the younger ones. So they try to listen to his voice and decipher the question behind the question.

Lipe, who has been with Jack for more than two decades, speaks freely. "I like it," he says.

They move on.  

In the second vehicle, designer Chris Cochran, who started a few months before Lipe, shakes his head. He's a world-class architect, helping to create some of the best courses on the planet. But even he's in awe watching Jack create golf holes so quickly. "I can't do this," he says. "I've got to sit in an office, plot, sketch, think about it."”


So as I see it, you’ve got the greatest golfer in the history of the game who got his introduction to golf architecture by simply showing up, hitting a few shots, stating a thought or two and then moving on.  His first taste of this yielded The Golf Club, a perennial Top 100 club.  Then he formally works with Pete Dye at Harbour Town, again he offers his opinion here or there and, voila, Top 100 course.  Then Muirfield Village, again Top 100.

Why would he change this method?  I wouldn’t.

But he does say in the quotes I included that he listens to his critics and changes as appropriate.  Then he works on Sebonack with Tom Doak and RGD.  Then comes Dismal River.  Since he is rumored never to visit other architects sites/courses, maybe this possibly could have been a learning experience for him and could serve as another step in his design process.

Who knows.  
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 09:29:03 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #171 on: September 07, 2010, 04:28:26 AM »
I'm not sure what your point is, Mac?

Judging by the third last paragraph you're saying he's had his greatest success when he's had the least involvement?

To me, that second story you included... he's saying a members carry of 225 and a ladies carry of 185 is realistic? I have never played with a woman amateur who carries it 185, and 225 carry is still more than most men I play with can rely on. It seems even at a stage where he says he thinks more about how the average golfer will play a hole he still doesn't understand the limitation on our games.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #172 on: September 07, 2010, 05:13:14 AM »

Scott

Could you be kind enough to explain exactly your meaning “It seems even at a stage where he says he thinks more about how the average golfer will play a hole he still doesn't understand the limitation on our games”.

It’s not that I disagree but more wanting to confirm your precise meaning.

Melvyn

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #173 on: September 07, 2010, 05:34:02 AM »
Melvyn,

I was referring to this passage from the story Mac posted above:

Quote
Jack looks at both the tips and the members' tees. There is something funny about the Golden Bear imagining how a duffer would get around a course. As he has gotten older, and his own game has slipped, he's grown better at this. He doesn't just imagine a younger version of himself on the tee. He also imagines his grandson. "I've started to think like that," he says. "It's like trying to think in Spanish."

Today, the issue is how far Joe Golfer will be able to hit the ball in the air.
Jack looks out from the tee. "That's not much of a carry," he says.

Senior designer Jim Lipe sits in the back. "It's a helluva carry for me," he says.

"You're a frigging old man," Jack says.

"I've got to hit it up the right side?"

"Here's what you've got, Jim," Jack says. "You've got 260 here. Members are gonna have 225. Ladies are gonna have 185 maybe, something like that, to get into that area.

To me, that suggests that Jack doesn't, even at an advanced age (though he still recently shot 68 at Dismal, I recall Chris Johnston posting) understand the limitations most amateurs face in playing golf.

I've read the article. It's meant to be a puff piece, but to me those two underlined sections are at odds with one another.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 05:47:06 AM by Scott Warren »

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture
« Reply #174 on: September 07, 2010, 06:18:05 AM »
Scott - imo it's a little unfair to call that article a puff piece. If you were given the chance to travel with Jack for a few days, up close and personal, I doubt very much you'd produce a piece that ripped him a new one. To me, there's a lot of interest in that piece - you just need to read it with a critical eye. IMO it reads like something written by a guy who hasn't spent much time with golf architects. Watching people working on site is really impressive if you've not seen it before - I suspect this writer would have been blown away in a similar fashion by quite a lot of designers.

Although I agree the quote attributed to Chris Cochran is a bit suckupish (if that's a word)!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

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