[Tim Pitner]

So let's say, hypothetically, that someone said something like, "Jack Nicklaus is arguably the best golf course architect/designer in the modern age."  And let's concede that Nicklaus builds a lot of courses so perhaps his batting average isn't as good as some others.  But what if we compare Nicklaus' top 5 or so versus the top 5 of other prominent GCAs in the modern age such as Dye, Coore & Crenshaw, Doak and (even) Fazio, RTJ or RTJ Jr.  How does Nicklaus fare in this comparison? 

[Richard Choi]

I think it is BS that people are knocking down Jack for building too many courses while those same people worship ODG's who barely spent more than a few days at many sites.

To me, there is more than one way to run a company. You can keep it small scale and get your hands really dirty in everyday operation, or go big scale, trust your associates to manage day-to-day issues while making all the important decisions for yourself. You can micro-manage like Steve Jobs or you can just focus on developing great management talent like Jack Welch did. Both people are as good as they get in the business and I can't really say that one way is better than the other.

Jack is the ultimate CEO designer. The fact that he can develop so many courses while putting his signature touches on all of them is pretty remarkable in my opinion. And at the end of the day, it is his name on the course and we should respect it.

Not everyone can be "craftsman" architects. Not everyone has to do things the same way. You should judge based on the results, not on the process.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Richard

My take is if he is actually designing all those courses with real involvement in the “Design” then all credit to the man and good luck to him. However if his company is designing the courses and he get to sign the design off then I ask who was the actual designer and again good luck to Jack.

If I buy an Old Masters painting or for that matter a Picasso, then as long as it by the individual concerned then fine, but if not I want to know who. Reason is it a forgery/fake with the intention to convey the original or is it the genuine work.

Signing off designs are fine but it only works if all are honest about said individual involvement or not as the case may be.

I do not think you would be happy with one of my designs even if I could persuade Jack or anyone else to sign it off. These actions should be transparent and open, we all know what goes on, so where is the big deal. Do we want to confuse future generations or do we want them to know what really happened in the late 20th and early 21st Centuries.

I thought it was a topic about legacy or hidden half-truths?

Melvyn

[Michael Dugger]

The problem with your theory, Melvyn, is we are talking about golf courses here...

Something that is living and breathing.  Something that changes over the course of time.  They fail to remain stagnant, and this fact diminishes the significance of the original design, IMHO.

In other words, no Old Tom Morris course is still identical to how Old Tom laid it out back in the day.  Surely, over the course of 100 yrs the course has changed.

When someone designs a building, the final product is generally quite close to what the plans show.

However, with a golf course this is surely not the case.  A lot happens between designing on paper and constructing in the dirt.

And that brings me to my last point, as the "digging in the dirt" designers of today point out, no course is built by the hand of a single man.  It takes a team, each of them impacting the final product in their own subtle way.

Each of them leaving their own distinct imprint.

No course is truly the work of one single individual. 

[Richard Choi]

Melvyn, funny that you should bring up old paintings.

During Renaissance and following periods, most of the the famous painters ran a school where they had numerous assistants and apprentices who, in many cases, painted much of the work coming out of that shop. There are numerous examples of art from that period that are hard to attribute concretely because we are not sure who exactly painted it.

Even in modern times, you have artists like Kinkaid and Kostabi who have warehouse full of people to paint their works and they proudly sign the painting afterwards (and collectors pay hefty sums to collect them).

This is nothing new in the art world.

[Tom Yost]

I also find his tougher courses ask more of a player with the irons than any other designer. 

My Nicklaus experience is limited, but I have to agree with Jason.  My observation from the courses I've played is that they seem to offer a fairly stern challenge, especially for a mid handicapper.  Shots to the green are particularly demanding with not a lot of room for error.  

So that is the JN GCA legacy for me.

[JC Jones]

I think it is BS that people are knocking down Jack for building too many courses while those same people worship ODG's who barely spent more than a few days at many sites.

I can't echo this enough.  Alister MacKenzie was at Crystal Downs for somewhere between 1 day and a week, we don't have a problem with that.  Ross designed many courses off of TOPO maps and never set foot on site.  We don't really have a problem with that either.

Hell, Tom Doak just said on another thread he hadn't played Bay of Dreams and we generally consider him to be as hands-on as any designer today.

There may be many valid arguments against Nicklaus's architecture but I don't think time on site is necessarily valid (at least on its own).

[Mac Plumart]

So let's say, hypothetically, that someone said something like, "Jack Nicklaus is arguably the best golf course architect/designer in the modern age."  And let's concede that Nicklaus builds a lot of courses so perhaps his batting average isn't as good as some others.  But what if we compare Nicklaus' top 5 or so versus the top 5 of other prominent GCAs in the modern age such as Dye, Coore & Crenshaw, Doak and (even) Fazio, RTJ or RTJ Jr.  How does Nicklaus fare in this comparison?  

Tim...

I thought this had some value.  Here are a list of courses for some of the designers you mentioned.  Of course, it is debatable as to if these are the Top 5 courses for each designer.  But I did use a composite list of rankings from GW, GD, and Golf Mag.

At least is gets the ball rolling.


Top 5 Nicklaus Courses…
Muirfield Village
Harbour Town
Cabo de Sol (Ocean)
Sebonack
Castle Pines


Top 5 Tom Doak Courses…
Pacific Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
Sebonack
Ballyneal


Top 5 C&C courses…
Sand Hills
Friar’s Head
Old Sandwich
Bandon  Trails
Colorado Golf Club

Top 5 Fazio courses…
Shadow Creek
Wade Hampton
Butler National
Dallas National
Victoria National

Top 5 Dye courses…
Whistling Straits
Kiawah Ocean
The Golf Club
TPC Sawgrass
Harbour Town or maybe Casa de Campo

[Michael Dugger]

So let's say, hypothetically, that someone said something like, "Jack Nicklaus is arguably the best golf course architect/designer in the modern age."  And let's concede that Nicklaus builds a lot of courses so perhaps his batting average isn't as good as some others.  But what if we compare Nicklaus' top 5 or so versus the top 5 of other prominent GCAs in the modern age such as Dye, Coore & Crenshaw, Doak and (even) Fazio, RTJ or RTJ Jr.  How does Nicklaus fare in this comparison?  

Tim...

I thought this had some value.  Here are a list of courses for some of the designers you mentioned.  Of course, it is debatable as to if these are the Top 5 courses for each designer.  But I did use a composite list of rankings from GW, GD, and Golf Mag.

At least is gets the ball rolling.


Top 5 Nicklaus Courses…
Muirfield Village
Harbour Town
Cabo de Sol (Ocean)
Sebonack
Castle Pines


Top 5 Tom Doak Courses…
Pacific Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
Sebonack
Ballyneal


Top 5 C&C courses…
Sand Hills
Friar’s Head
Old Sandwich
Bandon  Trails
Colorado Golf Club

Top 5 Fazio courses…
Shadow Creek
Wade Hampton
Butler National
Dallas National
Victoria National

Top 5 Dye courses…
Whistling Straits
Kiawah Ocean
The Golf Club
TPC Sawgrass
Harbour Town or maybe Casa de Campo

No contest
 

[Mac Plumart]

Michael...

I agree "no contest".  I think he has been solid, but not a great architect.  I especially like the architects comments on this thread.  It reminds me of people in my line of work.  There are well known money managers who get on tv a lot and get a lot of press, but others in the business realize these specifics guys can't really manage money.  Rather they are heads of successful money management firms and get all the credit for their employees/partners work.  Perhaps this is the deal with Mr. Nicklaus.  Successful business man, great name, great marketing power, great team of people working for him or with him, but his specific golf course architectural skills might not be on the same level as some of the others in the industry.  Of course, I don't know for sure...simply reading/listening to what others are saying.

But that is why I say his legacy isn't that of a great architect, rather a solid one.  Also, comments have been made about his CEO skills, signature designer stuff, prolific number of designs, driving up awareness of who the architects are behind the course...also a comment was made about Mr. Nicklaus driving up the quality of the maintenance of golf course available to the average everyday player.  I seem to remember a quote that went something like this, the everyday golfer never knew PGA Tour conditions were available to them until Jack Nicklaus told them it was. 

So anyway...I'll shut up now and listen.  I am very much interested in peoples thoughts and opinions on this one.

[Martin Toal]

Is it really fair to compare Nicklaus with Tom Doak?

Nicklaus is the guy chosen when the rich owner dreams of playing with him on opening day, and when the course is meant to be a Four Seasons type course where you know what you are getting, and it is of good quality and wil appeal to a mass audience.

Tom Doak is the guy chosen when you want a special course that some people "get", but some don't, and is for the people who choose a luxurious individual hotel with quirks and hidden charm. His courses may take some time to enter the public consiousness.

Next to other former players, Nicklaus has a pretty good repertoire, at least compared to some who have added their names to projects and may not know much about architecture or land at all. Or have had anything to do with the routing.

I also like holes which play downhill! And I really like Monte Rei in Portugal and loved the original version of Eldorado, Cabo.

[Jim Nugent]

Kelly, I feel no hatred for Jack.  I honor him as a golfing immortal, either the 1st or 2nd greatest player ever IMO.  I feel sure he is the greatest golfing talent of all time, bar none.  

In golf course design, I feel it's a bit different.  His team produces lots of really good courses.  Nothing really great, though.  It's not just many member of this DG who believe that.  So do the raters.  The highest-ranked courses that have Jack's name on them are all co-designs, where the other partner did the routing.  He has maybe one of his own courses in the top U.S. hundred.  Down near the bottom of the list.  That he didn't route.  

His way of working seems pretty well known.  He spends very little time -- a few days? -- at any given course.  He doesn't route it.  He doesn't shape it.  He helps set strategy, especially by placing bunkers.  He oversees things, though his time constraints must put severe limits on that.        

Someone above brought up other archies, who didn't spend much time at their courses.  The Doak example is spurious.  MacKenzie: however much or little time he spent at CD, he routed the course, and it turned into one of the all-time inspired greats.  He created other designs/courses Jack can only dream of.  Ross: he dialed it in repeatedly, and that often shows up in course quality.  He did not do that at Pinehurst, though.  If he did that at courses like Seminole, then more power to him.  He was a routing genius who could create world-class courses like Mozart created immortal music.

Jack's factory has yet to do that.  They produce a high-quality product.  They are Salieri, though, to the Mozarts and Beethovens who also are out there.  It does seem ironic that Jack feels no need to view courses like Sand Hills.  He really has nothing to learn?  A guy who turns out inferior courses cannot learn from those who do better ones?  That is not a positive trait, if your goal really is to improve your craft and product.  

Can Jack Nicklaus, himself, spend the time and effort to design an immortal golf course?  Can he design a course by himself?  I think we will never learn the answer.  

[Peter Pallotta]

Just to say, I've always felt that, in the arts, even the best critics have a hard time distinguishing between "I don't like this" and "This doesn't work" - often very different things, though that difference is almost always ignored.  So,  imagine if we had this discussion instead:

Poster 1 - The best five films of all time were directed by Sidney Lumet, a true artist and classicist! Look - 12 Angry Men, The Pawnbroker, Fail Safe, Dog-Day Afternoon, and Network.

Poster 2 - Die and go to hell you mo-fo!! No effing way. He is good, granted, but he is not an artist!! The artist is Frederico Fellini! How can anyone top: 8˝, Amarcord , La Strada, City of Women, and Roma.

Poster 3 - You're both full of shite!  You don't know what you're talking about (and let's stick with English-language films please). The man who invented truly independent cinema was John Cassavettes: how can you beat the rawness and naturalness of Killing of a Chinese Bookie, Husbands, Women Under the Influence, Faces, and Opening Night....especially when they all cost so little to make?  The future of film-making must be this model!!

Poster 4 - Yeah, yeah, the old purist B.S. How many regular movie goers have seen any of those films? What's popular is what's good, face facts. Just one of Rob Reiner's films probably made more money than all of those other films put together (and they were also quality films): Stand by Me, The Princess Bride, When Harry Met Sally, Misery, This is Spinal Tap.  

Poster 5 - I'm outta here, except for two words: Frank Capra! The greatest ODG of all time, and films have never gotten better. Okay, more words: Mister Smith Goes to Washington; Mr Deeds Comes to Town; Meet John Doe; It Happened One Night;  It's a Wonderful Life

And so on.  In my opinion, ALL those films "work", and work well - though for all of them you can find many who say "I don't like it"...again, two different things.  AFTER THAT, there are a lot of questions that can be discussed, i.e. What's art? What's movie-making? What's communication and story-telling? How much populism is good populism? How much elitism is acceptable? What is the nature of craft? What is the nature of talent?

Do most of JN's courses work, as golf courses? Do they serve their intended audience?

Peter

[Michael Dugger]

Just to say, I've always felt that, in the arts, even the best critics have a hard time distinguishing between "I don't like this" and "This doesn't work" - often very different things, though that difference is almost always ignored.  So,  imagine if we had this discussion instead:

Poster 1 - The best five films of all time were directed by Sidney Lumet, a true artist and classicist! Look - 12 Angry Men, The Pawnbroker, Fail Safe, Dog-Day Afternoon, and Network.

Poster 2 - Die and go to hell you mo-fo!! No effing way. He is good, granted, but he is not an artist!! The artist is Frederico Fellini! How can anyone top: 8˝, Amarcord , La Strada, City of Women, and Roma.

Poster 3 - You're both full of shite!  You don't know what you're talking about (and let's stick with English-language films please). The man who invented truly independent cinema was John Cassavettes: how can you beat the rawness and naturalness of Killing of a Chinese Bookie, Husbands, Women Under the Influence, Faces, and Opening Night....especially when they all cost so little to make?  The future of film-making must be this model!!

Poster 4 - Yeah, yeah, the old purist B.S. How many regular movie goers have seen any of those films? What's popular is what's good, face facts. Just one of Rob Reiner's films probably made more money than all of those other films put together (and they were also quality films): Stand by Me, The Princess Bride, When Harry Met Sally, Misery, This is Spinal Tap. 

Poster 5 - I'm outta here, except for two words: Frank Capra! The greatest ODG of all time, and films have never gotten better. Okay, more words: Mister Smith Goes to Washington; Mr Deeds Comes to Town; Meet John Doe; It Happened One Night;  It's a Wonderful Life

On so on. What's art? What's movie-making? What's communication and story-telling? How much populism is good populism? How much elitism is acceptable? What is the nature of craft? What is the nature of talent?

Do most of JN's courses work? Do they serve their intended audience?

Peter

Once again, God Bless Peter Pallotta!!!  Here is a man with a brain...a man who "get's it"

If God is in the details, than so is discussion regarding golf course architecture.  The details are the only thing!

Jack Nicklaus is the man.  He is rich as hell and apparently a pretty good bloke to boot.

Shoot, nothing wrong with his golf courses, most of them are above average....far above.

But when I approach a thread like this, I assume that is our starting point, and all conversation regarding said subject matter takes off from there...

Is Nicklaus an artist?  
What role does he play in the design of his courses?  
Do legacies even matter?  
Is Jim Colton starting topics in hopes a brawl breaks out?  

[Randy Thompson]

Randy
Can you tell us the name of the project that you are referring to?
Are you sure that it is not a Nicklaus Design project, seperate from a signature design?
thanks

Yes it is a Nicklaus design project seperate of a signature project, why does only signature projects include design visits now and by the way he did not attent the kick off party.

[Peter Pallotta]

Good distinction, Kelly.  I think that, in general today, and across most all fields, that distinction is fast disappearing, and very few people -- especially those who are happy to be commentators instead of critics, because it's easier and because everyone else is doing it and because it 'pays better' -- care to notice or worry about it.

Peter

PS - Michael, just saw your post and I found this particularly interesting: "But when I approach a thread like this, I assume that is our starting point [that the courses are at least average, maybe above average], and all conversation regarding said subject matter takes off from there...".

You know, I'd never thought of it that way, i.e. I didn't think about what our implied starting point is, and didn't think that maybe many others haven't either.  Your starting point is probably a good one -- but it just struck me that in order to have an actual conversation, that assumed started point needs to be shared (at least to some degree) by others.  

In other words, like you say: "The details are the only thing".

[Tim Nugent]

If we're talking 50-100yrs from now, pretty much all that will around to base an opinion will be the actual finished product - the golf courses. Not who did what or how much of who's time was spent on-site etc.  For a comparison, look at say Dick Wilson, Robert Bruce Harris, RTJ and Stanley Thompson - just to pick 4 from 50-100 yrs ago. Does anybody really care about the mechanics of how the courses got done oris it just the course as we experience it today. 
Luckiy, I wouold hazard to guess that our prodigy will at least still have Nichlaus courses around in spades to examine.  Due to the fact that no expense was spared in their constuction, the expanse of land used and the level of upkeep, yes - they will still be here.  But like many do today, they wil be judge through the prism of tomorrow not today.
If I adhere to KBM insightful definition of critic vs commentator, I guess I would fall into the critic camp. Projecting into the future, I would (looking back on the afore mentioned ODA's above) some of the same criteria may be invoked - mainly, how did/do the courses stand up against the test of time?

And please, when posting, please review the origin of the thread.  While it may be fun for a few to have a Tit-fot-Tat back-biting session, do it
off-thread andspare the rest of us.  Thanks.

[Wade Schueneman]

Given some of the wonderful sites and large budgets that JN the designer enjoyed, I cannot help thinking that a small part of his legacy as a designer will be missed opportunity.  JN was clearly made to play golf, but unless those who have seen him at work tell me otherwise, I suspect that he does not have an extraordinary talent for design.  He clearly understands the game and has skilled associates (and clearly designed many excellent courses), but I think that in the end certain other design teams could have made more of the many great opportunities that JN was given largely (I suspect) on account of his name.

[Tom_Doak]

I think it is BS that people are knocking down Jack for building too many courses while those same people worship ODG's who barely spent more than a few days at many sites.

I can't echo this enough.  Alister MacKenzie was at Crystal Downs for somewhere between 1 day and a week, we don't have a problem with that.  Ross designed many courses off of TOPO maps and never set foot on site.  We don't really have a problem with that either.

Hell, Tom Doak just said on another thread he hadn't played Bay of Dreams and we generally consider him to be as hands-on as any designer today.

There may be many valid arguments against Nicklaus's architecture but I don't think time on site is necessarily valid (at least on its own).

JC: 

If you are building the best golf courses in the world, then how you did it doesn't really matter. 

But, if you are leaving people with the impression that you could have done a better job, then is it really unfair to suggest that a little bit more personal attention might have helped?  Not that it always would -- sometimes, the deck is just stacked the wrong way. 

Dr. MacKenzie can be fairly criticized for not getting the most out of some properties, but not for whatever time he spent at Crystal Downs!

[Greg Tallman]

I agree somewhat with Jim Nugent. 

I would love to see him route a course, take it through preliminary design with a client, do the construction drawings, make changes to the plans based on environmental constraints, take it ALL the wat through construction and GROW-IN. 

Then we would know how to gage his architectural ability.

Lester

So you contend that Jack has NOT been through what you suggest? Does he have help? Of course, If I could lay claim to being the greatest of all time at anything you can bet you back side that I would have some welll paid talent looking after my interests including on site design associates.

Does Jack get bashed too much for how he handles his design business? - YES

Do his "faceless" assocaites fail to receive the credit that is due them? - YES

Does that mean Jack is not an architect? - HARDLY

[Jud_T]

Jack's name is attached to some very good courses.   Of course it's also attached to places like The Bear at Grand Traverse....

[Chris Johnston]

So let's say, hypothetically, that someone said something like, "Jack Nicklaus is arguably the best golf course architect/designer in the modern age."  And let's concede that Nicklaus builds a lot of courses so perhaps his batting average isn't as good as some others.  But what if we compare Nicklaus' top 5 or so versus the top 5 of other prominent GCAs in the modern age such as Dye, Coore & Crenshaw, Doak and (even) Fazio, RTJ or RTJ Jr.  How does Nicklaus fare in this comparison?  

Tim...

I thought this had some value.  Here are a list of courses for some of the designers you mentioned.  Of course, it is debatable as to if these are the Top 5 courses for each designer.  But I did use a composite list of rankings from GW, GD, and Golf Mag.

At least is gets the ball rolling.


Top 5 Nicklaus Courses…
Muirfield Village
Harbour Town
Cabo de Sol (Ocean)
Sebonack
Castle Pines


Top 5 Tom Doak Courses…
Pacific Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
Sebonack
Ballyneal


Top 5 C&C courses…
Sand Hills
Friar’s Head
Old Sandwich
Bandon  Trails
Colorado Golf Club

Top 5 Fazio courses…
Shadow Creek
Wade Hampton
Butler National
Dallas National
Victoria National

Top 5 Dye courses…
Whistling Straits
Kiawah Ocean
The Golf Club
TPC Sawgrass
Harbour Town or maybe Casa de Campo

No contest
 

With no disrespect to the named architects as all are outstanding, lets also take a look at their top 20-25 designs.  Does the picture change?  Of course it does.  All have done good work - few have done as much or as many.  However he did it, Jack has earned his due in design.

[Jim Nugent]

I would love to see him route a course, take it through preliminary design with a client, do the construction drawings, make changes to the plans based on environmental constraints, take it ALL the wat through construction and GROW-IN.  

Then we would know how to gage his architectural ability.

Lester

So you contend that Jack has NOT been through what you suggest? Does he have help? Of course, If I could lay claim to being the greatest of all time at anything you can bet you back side that I would have some welll paid talent looking after my interests including on site design associates.

Does Jack get bashed too much for how he handles his design business? - YES

Do his "faceless" assocaites fail to receive the credit that is due them? - YES

Does that mean Jack is not an architect? - HARDLY

So Greg, what is the answer to your first question?  Has Jack routed courses by himself -- i.e. not chosen from routings his associates put together or made modifications on them, but actually routed them himself -- and then worked on them for weeks on end, over a period of months or more, making sure they turn out right?  

If my impression of how he works is wrong, by all means correct me.    

[Greg Tallman]

I agree somewhat with Jim Nugent. 

I would love to see him route a course, take it through preliminary design with a client, do the construction drawings, make changes to the plans based on environmental constraints, take it ALL the wat through construction and GROW-IN. 

Then we would know how to gage his architectural ability.

Lester

So you contend that Jack has NOT been through what you suggest? Does he have help? Of course, If I could lay claim to being the greatest of all time at anything you can bet you back side that I would have some welll paid talent looking after my interests including on site design associates.

Does Jack get bashed too much for how he handles his design business? - YES

Do his "faceless" assocaites fail to receive the credit that is due them? - YES

Does that mean Jack is not an architect? - HARDLY

So Greg, what is the answer to those questions in your first paragraph?  Has Jack routed courses by himself -- i.e. not chosen from routings his associates put together or made modifications on them, but actually routed them himself -- and then worked on them for weeks on end, over a period of months or more, making sure they turn out right?  

If my impression of how he works is wrong, by all means correct me.    

Not sure as we have not engaged Jack to build a new course. He has been very involved in the changes we have gone through on The Ocean Course.

[Mac Plumart]

Chris...

To build on your last comment, here is a list of all the rated courses built by the previously mentioned architects.  

Nicklaus Courses…
Muirfield Village
Harbour Town
Cabo de Sol (Ocean)
Sebonack
Castle Pines
Mayacama
Shoal Creek
Whispering Pines
Concession
Valhalla
Sycamore Hills
Punta Espada
El Dorado
Vista Vallarata
Monte Rei


Tom Doak Courses…
Pacific Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
Sebonack
Ballyneal
Lost Dunes
Old MacDonald*
Rock Creek Cattle Company*
*Not yet rated


C&C courses…
Sand Hills
Friar’s Head
Old Sandwich
Bandon  Trails
Colorado Golf Club
Cuscowilla
Kapaulua (Plantation)
Hidden Creek
We-Ko-Pa


Fazio courses…
Shadow Creek
Wade Hampton
Butler National
Dallas National
Victoria National
World Woods (Pine Barrens)
Galloway National
The Preserve
Black Diamond Quarry
Jupiter Hills
Gozzer Ranch
Proghorn
Fallen Oaks
The Quarry at La Quinta
Karsten Creek
Quail Hallow
Trump National
Flint Hills
Briggs Ranch
Estancia
Eagle Pointe
Whisper Rock
Sage Valley
Hudson National
Frederica
Forest Creek
National Golf Club of Canada


Dye courses…
Whistling Straits
Kiawah Ocean
The Golf Club
TPC Sawgrass
Harbour Town
Casa de Campo
The Honors Course
Pete Dye Golf Club of WV
Crooked Stick
Blackwolf Run (River)
Long Cove
Oak Tree National

I need to do a verification that I haven't overlooked any international courses.  I'll do that now and edit as appropriate.

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