Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture

[Melvyn Morrow]

Will there be anything left, will we not have destroyed all his efforts chasing the need for distance? Will courses in 100 years even resemble anything we have today?

There will be very little left from Jack or anyone who pre-dates him – sacrificed for the Few who like to prove they are just so much better than others and so will not accept roll back or any form of control.

Thanks to their inability to consider others, Jack legacy will be very short lived.

Melvyn

[Ulrich Mayring]

I do not see OTM as a player turned designer. He was Caddie, Keeper of the Green, ballmaker and filled many other roles as well - playing and designing courses were just two facets of his complete golfing personality.

The first player turned designer, who achieved world class status in both areas, was probably James Braid.

Ulrich

[Greg Tallman]

There is a course south of the broder that will likely stand the test of time and surely be included among his very best. 

[Sean_A]

I do not see OTM as a player turned designer. He was Caddie, Keeper of the Green, ballmaker and filled many other roles as well - playing and designing courses were just two facets of his complete golfing personality.

The first player turned designer, who achieved world class status in both areas, was probably James Braid.

Ulrich

Ulrich

If I had to pick one golfing hero it would without a doubt be Jame Braid.  However, you give him too much credit, credit which rightfully belongs to Park Jr. if you don't think of OTM has a course designer (which in and of itself is odd).  

Ciao  

[Bill_McBride]

I do not see OTM as a player turned designer. He was Caddie, Keeper of the Green, ballmaker and filled many other roles as well - playing and designing courses were just two facets of his complete golfing personality.

The first player turned designer, who achieved world class status in both areas, was probably James Braid.

Ulrich

I wonder whether Braid or OTM has more design credits. OTM really was a Renaissance man.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ulrich

I was not aware that OTM was not a player. He was a Professional Golfer which I believe is the same title Jack played under. All those Great Matches he played with Willie Park had nothing to so with playing golf but Green Keeping?

Sorry, Ulrich but we disagree on this point, I think you picked a guy who was far more than just a Caddie, Green Keeper, Player, Professional, Designer etc, but for all that he was very much a player.

Melvyn

[Michael Dugger]

Melvyn,

Perhaps you ought to ask Ulrich to clarify his position, without coming across like an ass. 

Does it have to do with it being a different era?

[Ulrich Mayring]

OTM won four Opens, so nobody would accuse him of not having been a player

But a "player turned designer" as I understand it in the context of this thread would be someone, who had two careers: first he made his living as a player and then as a course architect. OTM did not have two careers, he was a "golf professional" at a time, when that could mean any of playing, caddying, greenkeeping, making balls/clubs, teaching golf, designing courses, running club affairs etc. For one thing, designing courses could hardly be seen as a career in most of OTM's life, it just didn't pay enough.

Willie Park Jr. is a good argument, but I would consider him a clubmaker in his first career. Maybe I'm wrong about Braid as well, maybe he did things I don't know about. But he strikes me as the first guy with those two careers: playing and designing. Is he known for anything else in golf? Well, he did jump-start the PGA, so maybe I should count that as his second career instead of golf architecture.

Ulrich

[Eric Smith]

Melvyn,

Perhaps you ought to ask Ulrich to clarify his position, without coming across like an ass.  

Does it have to do with it being a different era?

While I type you've probably already edited your comments, but show me please where Melvyn is being an ass.  I just don't see it and I don't believe Ulrich took it as such.

[A.G._Crockett]

What will they be saying about Jack's courses and his mark on golf course architecture 50, 100 years from now?  Which will be his most lasting, celebrated designs?

Discuss.

I don't know what they will be saying in 50 yrs., but a cynical view right now would be that he contributed mightily to golf becoming slower and more expensive far more than he contributed great golf courses.  Maybe that won't be his lasting legacy, but it seems that way to me now.

[Sean Leary]

There is a course south of the broder that will likely stand the test of time and surely be included among his very best. 

agreed. might it be the best desert course in the world?

[Michael Dugger]

Melvyn,

Perhaps you ought to ask Ulrich to clarify his position, without coming across like an ass.  

Does it have to do with it being a different era?

While I type you've probably already edited your comments, but show me please where Melvyn is being an ass.  I just don't see it and I don't believe Ulrich took it as such.

"I was not aware Old Tom Morris wasn't a player".......Melvyn writes.

This coming from a man who is related to Old Tom.

That's what I call snarky....smart assed....

Keep your head buried in the sand, Eric, if you wish, but NOBODY......don't NOBODY ever say anything about Old Tom Morris without clearing it with Melvyn first.

Because Melvyn is the authority on Old Tom, and how golf OUGHT to be...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ulrich

 OTM £1 per day rates for design seems to say he was in that business, but as I do not want to make an Ass of myself I will just say again I do not agree with you.

Melvyn

PS MD I was actually responding to Ulrich statement 'I do not see OTM as a player turned designer' But let your hate for me shine through, show us all that you have yet to mature. I may well be an ass IYO but you are far worse in mine, you are the type of person who shoots first and asks questions later  - you would I suspect be the type of person who would be responsible for friendly fire.
.

[Eric Smith]

Melvyn,

Perhaps you ought to ask Ulrich to clarify his position, without coming across like an ass.  

Does it have to do with it being a different era?

While I type you've probably already edited your comments, but show me please where Melvyn is being an ass.  I just don't see it and I don't believe Ulrich took it as such.

"I was not aware Old Tom Morris wasn't a player".......Melvyn writes.

This coming from a man who is related to Old Tom.

That's what I call snarky....smart assed....

Keep your head buried in the sand, Eric, if you wish, but NOBODY......don't NOBODY ever say anything about Old Tom Morris without clearing it with Melvyn first.

Because Melvyn is the authority on Old Tom, and how golf OUGHT to be...

You didn't seem to have a problem with snarky....smart assed comments in your post to Chris Johnston on the Dismal thread this morning -- so why the bile here?  Surely you don't think we've forgotten how you feel about Mr. Morrow.

[Michael Dugger]

Melvyn,

Perhaps you ought to ask Ulrich to clarify his position, without coming across like an ass.  

Does it have to do with it being a different era?

While I type you've probably already edited your comments, but show me please where Melvyn is being an ass.  I just don't see it and I don't believe Ulrich took it as such.

"I was not aware Old Tom Morris wasn't a player".......Melvyn writes.

This coming from a man who is related to Old Tom.

That's what I call snarky....smart assed....

Keep your head buried in the sand, Eric, if you wish, but NOBODY......don't NOBODY ever say anything about Old Tom Morris without clearing it with Melvyn first.

Because Melvyn is the authority on Old Tom, and how golf OUGHT to be...

You didn't seem to have a problem with snarky....smart assed comments in your post to Chris Johnston on the Dismal thread this morning -- so why the bile here?  Surely you don't think we've forgotten how you feel about Mr. Morrow.

Okay Eric Smith.....now you've got my attention.

I don't find anything about what I said on the Dismal River thread to be snarky.  It was the truth, and sometimes that hurts.

I think Chris Johnston got on the soapbox that is Jack Nicklaus design and spewed corporate schtick.

My problem with that is this isn't the place for it, or at least it didn't use to be.  There have been enough instances cited over the years that have me firmly convinced Jack isn't the type of designer who "digs in deep."  He doesn't spend a ton of time in the field, he doesn't visit nearby golf courses to see what they are up to. 

His associates might......but then call it like it is I say!

But I digress.  My point is, spare us that kinda talk around here, will ya Chris Johnston, it's insulting to our intelligence and it's not something we are interested in hearing.  I get all I can handle of that sorta stuff from Golf, Golf Digest, The Golf Channel and innumerable fish wraps selling housing, balls, clubs, golf memberships, etc...

[Michael Dugger]

Back on the topic at hand.

Ulrich makes a distinction between Old Tom Morris being a "jack of all trades" golf professional, as it was the parlance of the times, so to speak....

....as contrasted with someone like James Braid or Jack Nicklaus; men who were players and profited EXCLUSIVELY as competitive golfers, before transitioning into lives as golf course architects.

To my mind this makes perfect sense......and I find his distinction sound. 

I've yet to here a rationale rebuttal from Melvyn, other than to say, "he disagrees."
 

[Ulrich Mayring]

I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with my assessment. I have been wrong many times and even when I'm right, it doesn't mean others have to comply.

Anyhow, I don't think this question "player turned designer" can be answered in a definitive way - like most questions posed here. The answer can only be the collection of opinions expressed here. I do see merit in mentioning OTM or Willie Parker Jr. in this context, obviously. Certainly Jack Nicklaus took the concept to a new level, what with him heading a world-wide firm of golf course architects and builders.

Well, why not let the chips fall where they may?

Ulrich

[John Mayhugh]

OTM £1 per day rates for design seems to say he was in that business, but as I do not want to make an Ass of myself I will just say again I do not agree with you.

It seems that you are taking offense to what Ulrich wrote w/o bothering to comprehend his point.

As I understood him, he defined player turned designer as one that had one profession (player) and left that profession to take on another (designer).  That doesn't seem to have been the story with OTM.  It seems that he did way more than one job at a time.  Ulrich's comment pointed out the breadth of his career and the difficulty of saying he was either a player or designer.  He was much more than that.

Ulrich never suggested that OTM wasn't a player or a designer at all - just that he was never easily categorized as one or the other.  Or at least that is how it reads to me.

[Bill_McBride]

Back on the topic at hand.

Ulrich makes a distinction between Old Tom Morris being a "jack of all trades" golf professional, as it was the parlance of the times, so to speak....

....as contrasted with someone like James Braid or Jack Nicklaus; men who were players and profited EXCLUSIVELY as competitive golfers, before transitioning into lives as golf course architects.

To my mind this makes perfect sense......and I find his distinction sound. 

I've yet to here a rationale rebuttal from Melvyn, other than to say, "he disagrees."
 

Anyone who designed as many courses as he did was a course designer, not a "jack of all trades" who happened to lay out the odd course.  Melvyn probably has the number at the tip of his fingers........

[Michael Dugger]

OTM £1 per day rates for design seems to say he was in that business, but as I do not want to make an Ass of myself I will just say again I do not agree with you.

It seems that you are taking offense to what Ulrich wrote w/o bothering to comprehend his point.

Ulrich never suggested that OTM wasn't a player or a designer at all - just that he was never easily categorized as one or the other.  Or at least that is how it reads to me.

+1.  Exactly...

[Mac Plumart]

My only point on Jack was that he will be better known for being a player turned architect rather than a great architect.  I also think Ulrich really hit the nail right on the hammer, grabbed the bull by the balls, and knocked the horns right out of the park with his comment...

"I don't think this question "player turned designer" can be answered in a definitive way---...Jack Nicklaus took the concept to a new level, what with him heading a world-wide firm of golf course architects and builders."

[Greg Tallman]

I do not understand the knocks on Jack using "associates" in his works.

Tell me someone who does not?

I know TD spends a fair amount of time on site but it is not as though he is there day in day out tweaking this and perfecting that... an "associate" may be but Tom is not. That is not a knock, just the reality. If Tom were on site everyday during construction his fees mught make Jack's look like pocket change.

Coore and Crenshaw don't exactly "move in" when doing a project do they?

Just using the best in the bsiness and the most popular on thsi site as examples.

Why is Jack the whipping boy for this particular criticism?

I dare someone to say that spending a few more days on site over a 400-500 day period makes an appreciable difference. Can't hurt but is it something that is a make or break type of deal? I do not believe so.

I would also suggest that having someone of the ilk of Jim Lipe would also rival or surpass someof the "shingle names" when it comes to design. 

[Michael Dugger]

I do not understand the knocks on Jack using "associates" in his works.

Tell me someone who does not?

I know TD spends a fair amount of time on site but it is not as though he is there day in day out tweaking this and perfecting that... an "associate" may be but Tom is not. That is not a knock, just the reality. If Tom were on site everyday during construction his fees mught make Jack's look like pocket change.

Coore and Crenshaw don't exactly "move in" when doing a project do they?

Just using the best in the business and the most popular on this site as examples.

Why is Jack the whipping boy for this particular criticism?

I dare someone to say that spending a few more days on site over a 400-500 day period makes an appreciable difference. Can't hurt but is it something that is a make or break type of deal? I do not believe so.

I would also suggest that having someone of the ilk of Jim Lipe would also rival or surpass some of the "shingle names" when it comes to design.  

Greg,

I am inclined to believe something has to be said for the following:

During the heyday of the past 10-15 yrs or so, at any single time how many Nicklaus courses were under construction at any single time?  Perhaps 50?

During this same period how many Doak or Coore & Crenshaw courses were under construction at any single time?  Perhaps 5?

How else can one explain this difference other than to say Doak/C&C spend more time on site than Jack?  If it simply isn't true than are you saying Doak/C&C are liars?  Is them marketing themselves as firms that spend more time in the dirt a farce?

An element of this matter has to do with corporate culture, in my opinion.  The Golden Bear Empire reeks of it...they are the Starbucks....the McDonalds of golf course design.

[astavrides]

I truly dislike his course at PGA West, where he dug out some lakes and used the spoil to pile up three or four huge mounds.  He then cut shelves in front and back about half way up, thus creating a green with a bunker 20'-30' below the front and an elevated tee on the back side.  Yuck-a-rama.

Which one?  The private one or the public one?

It's changed.  At one point it was the Nicklaus Private and became the Nicklaus resort.  Or maybe vice versa.  Maybe someone more familiar with PGA West and Palm Springs can say.  It's been quite a while.

There are 2.  Are you referring to the one that shares the clubhouse with the stadium course?

[Carl Rogers]

Muirfield Village:
Why does it seem to "need" so many re-do's?  Does anyone have a guess to the total dollars through the years spent on it?

Is it true that the 16th hole is getting a complete makeover?  Any details available?

Do any of you dislike the 17th holes landing area as much as I do?