Australian Golf Digest Top 100

[Chris Kane]

The latest edition of AGD came out a couple of days ago, with the feature story being their latest top 100.  These lists always attract a fair bit of debate, so I thought I'd start one now.

I'll post the top 50 for now, and if anyone wants the second 50, please tell me and I'll put them up too.

1 Royal Melbourne Composite
2 Kingston Heath
3 New South Wales
4 Metropolitan
5 Royal Adelaide
6 The Lakes
7 The Australian
8 Victoria
9 The National Moonah
10 The Golf Club Kennedy Bay
11 Royal Sydney
12 Royal Canberra
13 Kooyonga
14 Lake Karrinyup
15 Laguna Quays
16 Hope Island
17 The Glades
18 The Vines
19 Commonwealth
20 Newcastle
21 Terrey Hills
22 The National Old
23 Woodlands
24 The Dunes
25 Mount Lawley
26 Sanctuary Cove Pines
27 Secret Harbour
28 Joondalup
29 Lakelands
30 Royal Hobart
31 Yarra Yarra
32 Coolum
33 Tasmania
34 Portsea
35 Grange West
36 Meadow Springs
37 Barwon Heads
38 Peninsula South
39 Concord
40 The National Ocean
41 Huntingdale
42 Twin Waters
43 Horizons
44 Camden Lakeside
45 Horsham
46 Paradise Palms
47 Capricorn New
48 The Heritage
49 Bonville
50 Capital

Things I've noticed are the fall from grace for the "second-tier" of sandbelt courses - from memory, in 1998 Yarra Yarra was 14th (now 31), Huntingdale was 16th (41), Commonwealth 18th (19) and Peninsula 21st (38).  Of those, only Commonwealth has stayed in the top 25.  Any idea of the reasons for this?  Were they overrated, or have they slipped in some way?

Interesting to see the gulf between the two links courses at The National - one makes the top 10 and the other is at 40*.  

Moonah Links and Thirteenth Beach - which I imagine would have both figured in deliberations - were opened too late to be considered.

*I don't intend this thread to become a TWP-bashing exercise: if you want to do so thats fine, but I've burnt myself already and I won't do it again.

[Ran Morrissett]

I agree with the top three, though the two courses at RM SHOULD BE BROKEN OUT.

What is the Aussies fascination with Metro? Flat, flat, and more flat with great conditioning - so what?

The Lakes and The Australian ahead of Newcastle?? Doesn't Stockton win every hole on the front against the Lakes? And doesn't The Australian remain a waste of four hours? Or are they ranking clubhouses as opposed to golf courses  

I am glad to see Harrison's Moonah course jump right into the fray.

Regardless of the transgressions at Commonwealth, I still have it easily in my Oz top 10.

I like a lot of the recovery shots around the greens at Terry Hills and think #20 is about right.

Lakelands is horrible; to see it ahead of St. Michaels or Sorrento makes me cry.

I'll take Barwon Heads over Tasmania anyday.

No one seems to love Yarra Yarra anymore?

What about Packer's course up in northern NSW?

Cheers,


PS Post the next fifty, please, when you have a moment.

[Chris Kane]

Ran,

I'd imagine that, like every list in every magazine, politics plays a part.  An exclusive club will win over a less prestigious one, for the wrong reasons.

I havn't heard anything about Packer's course, ever.  I heard it was being built, but apart from this site, nothing since it was finished.  Or is it still being built?

I'll post the next 50 in a moment.

[Chris Kane]

51 Kooralbyn Valley
52 The Grand
53 Murray Downs
54 Grange East
55 Yowani
56 Sun City
57 Links Port Douglas
58 Kingswood
59 Long Island
60 The Links Lady Bay
61 Spring Valley
62 Royal Queensland
63 St Michaels
64 Federal
65 Arundal Hills
66 Indooroopilly West
67 Albany
68 Great Lakes Turncurry
69 Bunbury
70 Araluen
71 Cottesloe
72 Tallwoods
73 Royal Pines East
74 Cranbourne
75 Noosa Springs
76 Sorrento (Ran, not happy?)
77 Robina Woods
78 Bonnie Doon
79 Alice Springs
80 Glenelg
81 Millicent
82 Castle Hill
83 Cape Schanck
84 Warrnambool
85 Lakes Entrance
86 Pelican Waters
87 Ocean Shores
88 Mount Broughton
89 Southern
90 Yarrawonga Murray
91 Cobram-Barooga Old
92 Monash
93 Killara
94 Liverpool
95 Port Fairy
96 Pymble
97 Keysborough (41st in 1998)
98 Bribie Island
99 Palm Meadows
100 Ulverstone

The people at Keysborough must be ready to jump.  They have gone from 41st four years ago to 97 this time round.  Royal Queensland has gone from 35 to 62 in the same period.  Sorrento has gone from mid-50's to 76.  There are many stories like this, both of courses shooting up, and other crashing down.

[Chris Kane]

I'm drafting my letter to ADG now - not in criticism, but part of it will be on the RM issue.  It is much more interesting to see RM East + West ranked seperately, becuase it generates fun debate on the merits of the East.  

Maybe ADG don't want too much commotion, which seems to always occur when discussing the East.  I've seen it ranked anywhere from 2nd to 12th on some lists.  Thats the kind of debate I want to see.  The composite at RM is a foregone conclusion, whereas the West is not (its still no1 by twenty miles in my eyes, but not for others).

[bm]

I believe Packer's course is finished and playable, but, you will never ever see a photo of it. Absolutely and totally bloody private as Kerry himself might put it.

[Chris Kane]

Re: Packers course

In that case, we don't need to think about it.  It won't get ranked, which suits Packer just fine.

Any idea who designed it?

[Peter Galea]

Wasn't Keysborough undergoing a renovation. I have spoken with Cameron Williams, supt. about the project several times, (as close as I've ever been to Oz) he was excited and thought it was long overdue. Has the renovation been completed? Perhaps Mike Duffy will chime in with details.  

[Chris Kane]

I'm not aware of renovation of the championship course, but they've just announced a further nine holes designed by Karrie Webb.  See the Karrie Webb course design thread for details.

[Ran Morrissett]

Packer's course has been open for a year and based on the 40 photos I've seen of it, I can safely suggest that it's the best inland (more than 20 miles from the ocean) course in the country (which probably only means it's better than Royal Canberra, Federal, and ?).

Why does everyone seem to prefer Portsea to Sorrento - other than Mike C's excellent work   ?

Isn't Glenelg much better than #80?

Seeing mediocre courses like Pymble/ Killara/ Monash etc. only reminds me how indifferent the second tier of courses are around Sydney, which is still the greatest big city in the world to live despite the sharp drop off in courses after you've seen NSWGC and RSGC.

What happened to Elanora?? There was a certain charm to that course that 99.99% of the northern suburb courses couldn't touch.

Several of the best holes in the country are to be found at Alice Springs CC - too bad TW seem to have waivered with their "vision".

I disagree that The Glades is a) better than The Grand and b) better by 35 spots. That's politics for you!

Where is Long Reef? Should have only been a 14 hole course given its limited acreage but it is still an inspiring place to find yourself on an uncrowded day.

Cheers,

[Chris Kane]

Ran,

I'm going to try and find my March 2000 copy of ADG and put up the 2000 list for comparison.

The politics I hear mentioned frequently is the high-ranking of Sydney courses, compared to the second-tier sandbelt.  I've read a piece where the author claimed that the only reason RSGC and The Australian were ranked higher than Commonwealth and YY was because of the club names and their location in Sydney.  Thats politics!

The question is: if the Woodlands layout belonged to Royal Sydney for example, would it occupy no.23 in the rankings or would it be higher?  There has to be something there becuase rankings are subjective - you can try but cannot completely eliminate the external factors like clubhouse, club name etc.

[Justin_Ryan]

Packer's course was done by Greg Norman Design and reportedly has around one round per day, ie Jamie Packer, since Kerry is sick.  A Labor party Senator I know who is also golf nut told me that former NSW ALP heavyweight Graham Richardson has played the course, and it sounds like GND were given free reign to do whatever they wanted.

I have to disagree with Ran than Commonwealth should be in the top 10 at the present time, although properly restored with the removal of thousands of trees, I think it could easily rank with KH.

The system also allows panellists to judge courses only in their home state, which could explain why the Sydney courses such as The Lakes and The Australian are ranked so highly.  Despite all the flak the Golf Australia top 25 received, it could be argued that their rankings better reflect the views of GCA users, are more relevant by including newer courses and more realistic by counting the two RMs.

[Danny Goss]

Chris,

I was disappointed to note that Warragul didn't make it. when you write to AGD ask them what happened.  

On a serious side it is amazing how quickly the list deteriorates.

Packer's course was a Norman design I am pretty sure.

[Chris Kane]

Justin,

I agree with you about the differences between Golf Australia and ADG: its more realistic and the 'wholeistic' approach works better.  Pannelists are more accountable too (although it gives people the opportunity to fly the flag for their own projects).



The AGD ranking used a points system in the categories Shot Value, Condition, Memorability and Design Variety.  Each category recieved equal weighting.

The Lakes was ranked 11 in 1998, and is now 6th.  That might raise a few eyebrows!  Is it really as good as that?

Here is a Link to the 2000 list, with the 98 ranking in brackets.  I can't bring myself to type whole lists again.

[David_Elvins]

The saw the magazine in the shop last week and have spent all week wondering why Chris hadn't written a post about it.  Thanks for finally putting my mind at ease.

A few quick comments (of limited interest).

Remeber when Huntingdale was top six ranked in the eighties.  And now it is 41.  Now that is a big fall.  (I think 41 is close to the mark, just shows what the hype of hosting a tournament can do.)

Kennedy Bay at no 10.  Has anyone played it?  Any opinions?

Could someone be trying to make a point with the two national courses?  They don't seem THAT different.

(P)WT are now the most successful designers in the country according to this.  What is it, 9 courses in the Top 100?

Why do Cobram Old and Yarraawonga Murray finish right next to each other in EVERY SINGLE ranking?

[Chris Kane]

David,

Yes, TWP are the most successful designers, but have a look at a positions they occupy:

16 Hope Island
40 Ocean
42 Twin Waters
44 Camden Lakeside
50 Capital
57 Links Port Douglas
79 Alice Springs
90 Yarrawonga

Not the kind of numbers you'd call fantastic.  I can't imagine they'd be pleased.  Hope Island was no.9 in 1998 - an example of new course hype dying down in time.  I wonder what it was just after opening in 93?

Why didn't I put a post up earlier?  Because I didn't have the list at hand.  I only got the magazine today - and put the list up here straight away.  If you've spent a week wondering why I hadn't posted, then GCA is really gettting to you!!

[bm]

I played Kennedy Bay a few years back - and thought it a very good course, very reminicent of a true links with some great greens and very well done pot bunkers. I thought it a far better links course than any other I had seen attempted in Australia.

That said I believe there were some environmental restictions which limited the clearing/irrigation that could take place. The resulting course is far too narrow for play in the very windy conditions there - if they could clear or thin out another 20 yards each side of the fairways and get them a bit wider it would be a classic course.

With the fairways their current width it is unplayable for the average golfer (loss of a ball per stroke of handicap probably) . It could rank 10 with the above changes IMO.

[Doc Kildare]

I have some photos of the "interesting" Kennedy Bay bunkering which I will attempt to post tonight from home.

[Brian Walshe]

Ran,

Which of the holes at Alice Springs we're you referring to?

Brian

[Paul Daley]

It strikes me that Royal Sydney, plus Royal Canberra and The Australian (7) in particlular, are way too high. Having The Lakes at (6) makes you wonder just how serious this crowd were!

Regardless of which mag, they all seem to place Newcastle too low.

Woodlands (23) gave me cause to laugh: in my mind the only controversey is whether it is a top-10, or lies just outiside? But not down in the "boondocks".

Commonwealth was poorly treated: probably downgraded because of poor fairway conditioning; but give me a good layout with poor conditioning, over a "stinker" with good grooming any time.

Laguna Quays - way too high.

The Ocean Course at the National should easily get into this list, and Yarra Yarra (31) is a "huge bloody joke" ... mate.
The real issue should be where in the top-20 it resides?

Regarding Kerry Packer's course in the Upper Hunter Valley, a "little birdie" put forth the opinion that ..."it is by a long way the best work done in Australia by Greg Norman and his team".   I enquired, "What - better than the Moonah, Glades, Pelican Waters, the Grand?" He said, "Yes". I then mentioned that Brookwater is rumoured to be something special when it gets fully opertaional. In response, he said, "Yes, but Packer's course is 10 times better!"
 

[Mike Duffy]

:(I know I'm going to get a tarring and feathering when I go down to the club later today, however, I feel that I must say something about Keysborough.

Fifteen years ago, Keysborough Golf Club was rated at 24 in Australia and probably deserved that ranking.

Without going into minuatae regarding the sagas that have beset the club during that period of time, just let me say that I was surprised to find the club ranked in the top 100 in Oz.

I have been one of the loudest and most trenchant critics of what has taken place there over the years, so any redesign can only be better than what exists today.

The club has struggled with the "two grass policy" which has not gone well at all.

Disastrous decisions in regard to it finances almost put the club out of business, coupled with a dramatic decrease in membership.

Today, things are looking a lot better, but if ever a student of golf club management wants a thesis to work on, then he/she need not look any further than Keysborough Golf Club for  some prime material.

Never, ever elect unqualifed people to positions of authority, or more importantly, give them carte blanche.

I just hope that when the next AGD ratings appear (3 years?) KCG will have moved a few rungs up the ladder, and maybe further down the track, it will have regained its rightful position in Australian Golf.

In the meantime, you might like to read my take on the "Karrie Webb Design" under the thread on GCA.

[Chris Kane]

Paul,

Why were the Sydney courses ranked so high?  Read Justin's post earlier where he mentions the system of allocating points - pannelists can only vote in their own state.  

For me, this is a fundamentally flawed system.  It keeps all states on a relatively level playing field, which is stupid when trying to ascertain rankings for the whole country.  This system doesn't allow Victoria to occupy most of the top positions as many people feel it should.  

Panellists can't compare across states, so the final result isn't definitive.  Is Lakelands a better course than Yarra Yarra?  The rating says so, and I havn't played Lakelands, but I'd be surprised if it was.

As a member, do you think Huntingdale is fairly represented here?  Is it really 25 places worse than it was before Newton Grant & Spencer did their work?  Or was it ranked too highly in 1998? (it was 16th).

I'll agree with you on Commonwealth - great design beats great conditioning every time.  However, the fairways at CGC are improving - most fairways have a nice layer of couch on them - so AGD won't have their excuse next time.

Why didn't AGD list their pannelists for each state, as they have done in previous incarnations?

Finally, was Tom Ramsay anywhere near this list?!?

[Chris Kane]

Before Mike Clayton beats me to it, I amend my comment that great design beats great conditioning (when discussing Commonwealth).

There is only one great design in this country: Royal Melbourne West (or Royal Melbourne Composite for the purposes of this thread).  13 holes at Commonwealth come under my category of very good design, while three come the banner of ok, one is ordinary, and one hole is downright awful.

[Richard Chamberlain]

Here are a few photos of Kennedy Bay in Western Australia.
I hope this works...its a new trick for me.

[Ran Morrissett]

Interesting pictures, and I really like the 3rd one down which looks like a hard target to find, especially with what I assume to be fairly windy conditions.  However, seeing the rough surrounding the bunkers - and thus potentially preventing them from gathering a ball  - makes me wonder if they know what they are doing.

Speaking of bunkers, I was listening to the taped telecast of the Heinken last night and Mike C. mentioned that he had been working off a 1933 photo that showed Victoria GC with  wild and rugged bunkers. That look was long gone from the course when I played there 1996-1999 but my question is two fold 1) was MacKenzie responsible for these 1933 bunkers and 2) can anyone post some pics of Mike's work in restoring them?

Brain, I was refering to a couple of holes on the front at Alice Srings that enjoy the best topography, namely the one shot 3rd against the hillside and the rolling 8th (or is it the 7th?) through the scrub. I also seem to recall the three shot 4th had a pair of well placed bunkers 70 yards shy of the green and the short 5th had a narrow green that was tough target (but a neat chipping area to the right) in the desert winds, especially after 4 VBs  . In short 2-8 was some of the best desert golf I've seen.

Cheers,