[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I am surprised you find the 12th at Pacific Dunes bland.  Bland compared to 11 and 13, well, it sort of had to be.  But for a big hitter it takes two terrific shots to get close to the green into the summer wind; for most others it takes two great shots to get past the center fairway bunker and leave themselves a reasonable third.

There are not as many bunkers or undulations on the hole but I did not think you were about the eye candy.

I don't know why anyone would lump 3 and 15 into the same category.  I think those are two of the best par-5's I've done.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
    Where does #6 OM fall in the rankings for par 5's. One of your best IMO. So seemingly benign off the tee and so complex the rest of the way. I love the scrapes down the left side.

I loved OM on my trip in June. After seeing Ballyneal last year I was worried the greens would be too over the top, but I think the green complexes of OM are fantastic. So large and so many possible pin placements and permutations of playing the holes that it reminds me of TOC in the sense that it will take a lot of rounds to really start to unravel the course. Quite possibly the best set of greens RGD has done for my taste.
   Interesting 10 rounds breakdowns. I am at about 5-5 with PD and OM. I might occasionally venture over to BD and BT (especially for the #13-17 stretch), but I could happily spend the rest of my golfing days at PD and OM. At most I would go 6-4, but I honestly can't decide which one would get the extra round.
    My only issues with OM are the tee shot on #3, the approach on #7 (both because of my low ball flight) and the tee shot on the Road hole (just not enough danger to worry about IMO). I think #13 may just be one of my favorite holes. The Redan isn't a "pure" Redan IMO, but it is one excellent hole that is tough as nails, it doesn't even need the bunker. A tough green to hit and getting up and down isn't a picnic. The back of the green on #16 (Alps) is weird with the hump(s). I can't remember if there are one or two.
    Overall I think OM is an excellent course and I look forward to taking my son to see it in the future.

[Kevin Pallier]

Ed

I'd add #17 to that with #6 as one of the better Doak P5's I've seen.

[ed_getka]

Ed

I'd add #17 to that with #6 as one of the better Doak P5's I've seen.

Kevin,
   I would agree, although from what I heard while I was there we are in the minority.

[Rob Rigg]

I am looking fwd to returning to Bandon now that the "OM Opening Day Euphoria" has worn off - just to see if my opinion changes.

OM vs PD is splitting hairs - two amazing but different courses. OM is probably the most "fun" course in the country - Ballyneal is the only other that I have played that comes close. PD is just an all world golf experience - although after 13 I kind of want to go back to the 1st and tee it again bc I enjoy the early holes a lot more (1,2,3,4 are wonderfully paced as you march towards and then along the ocean). On first visit - OM felt like it had a more complete quality throughout the round with no "low" points and a very strong finish. I also thought it was a lot easier to play the putter for well out - or running shots - although a couple people have debated me on whether it is indeed easier than at PD.

The width off the tee at OM may be too forgiving for a low handicap golfer but the approach shots and putting requirements more than make up for it if you want to score well. Never mind the wind element.

4 all world courses on 1 site with 2 of them "really, really" all world, 1 "really all world" and 1 just "all world".  

Bandon baby, yeah!

[Kevin Pallier]

Aside - I wonder why they still call it Bandon Dunes golf resort ? Semantics I know but surely just Bandon golf resort suffices nowdays ?

[ed_getka]

Aside - I wonder why they still call it Bandon Dunes golf resort ? Semantics I know but surely just Bandon golf resort suffices nowdays ?

Bandon suffices a la Pinehurst.

[Ross Waldorf]

Well you know these Bandon Dunes threads are the ones that tend to get me into the fray, but I just have to jump in on this 15-at-Pacific-is-bland thing. I see that Tom Doak just noted that it was one of "the best par 5s that I've done." Maybe I'm in the minority on the board about this hole, but I agree with Tom, and it's one of my favorite holes on the golf course. Can't speak to Matt Ward's issues -- I know he's a big hitter, which perhaps makes the hole less interesting, particularly in the summer. But I simply love the hole. I think it looks great off the tee and I love hitting downwind drives there. As an average length hitter, I find the second shot really fun downwind -- trying to decide if going for the green makes any sense and then not caring and going for it anyway, only to wind up right too often and having to deal with that mound on the right front of the green. Which is just a great feature, by the way -- what a cool, bold green. For a player who doesn't spin the ball much, playing into that green in a summer wind is a pretty testy shot. But it gives me at least a shot at birdie because it plays short in the summer. I two putted from 70 yards one time because I just didn't want to hit one up in the air. A great hole. Gets plenty of love from me.
R

[Bill_McBride]

NGLA is the most bold, fascinating, outrageous, inspiring golf course architecture in America and maybe the world.  I personally hold it that highly.  I love many other courses and have been fortunate to have seen quite a few.  I stick by my 10-0.  JC

I agree in general with your "the most" thoughts about NGLA, but there are many flavors......I'm 5-5 NGLA and Pacific Dunes, The Old Course, CPC.

[Jerry Kluger]

I played in a golf event yesterday and at the cocktail reception Bandon came up for discussion.  One player had just come back from a trip to Bandon and they had two foursomes.  The group had taken many trips including multiple trips to the UK and Ireland and well as many locations in the US including Pebble Beach and Kohler.  He said the consensus of the group was that PD was the best, and Trails and Bandon Dunes were tied for second.  They liked Old Mac the least.  I really questioned him about it and he said most of the guys were really good players and were not thrilled with the huge greens and felt that of the 4 courses the property was the least interesting.  He said the guys love PD but a couple had a hard time with the number of par 3s and par 5s on each nine.   So I guess that gca junkies like us love Old Mac but others may not but it is not much different than how we view the different ladies in the SI swimsuit issue - to each his own but everyone of them is outstanding.

[Andy Gray]

The Redan isn't a "pure" Redan IMO, but it is one excellent hole that is tough as nails, it doesn't even need the bunker. A tough green to hit and getting up and down isn't a picnic.

Ed,

A pure Redan in what sense? My understanding is that it is closely modeled on the Redan at North Berwick instead of the Redans found in the US, which themselves are (for lack of a better word) variations of the one at NB.

If this is not the case, someone please correct me.

Cheers,

Andy

[Tom_Doak]

Andy:

The hole at Old Macdonald is not that closely modeled on the Redan at North Berwick.  It's not really like any other Redan I've played.  But it's sure not easy.

[Tom_Doak]

I played in a golf event yesterday and at the cocktail reception Bandon came up for discussion.  One player had just come back from a trip to Bandon and they had two foursomes.  The group had taken many trips including multiple trips to the UK and Ireland and well as many locations in the US including Pebble Beach and Kohler.  He said the consensus of the group was that PD was the best, and Trails and Bandon Dunes were tied for second.  They liked Old Mac the least.  I really questioned him about it and he said most of the guys were really good players and were not thrilled with the huge greens and felt that of the 4 courses the property was the least interesting.  He said the guys love PD but a couple had a hard time with the number of par 3s and par 5s on each nine.   So I guess that gca junkies like us love Old Mac but others may not but it is not much different than how we view the different ladies in the SI swimsuit issue - to each his own but everyone of them is outstanding.

Jerry:

I've said before that I expect the guys who consider themselves "really good players" are likely not to like Old Macdonald as much as others ... they do not like hitting a lot of greens and three-putting a few of them, and they don't like that other players are not being punished [directly instead of subtly] for their inferior drives.  That is sometimes Matt Ward's view, though, and since he started this thread I guess he would not agree with the other group that Old Macdonald allows you to get away with too much.

I get a laugh though when guys tell me that Pacific Dunes is the best course on the property but they "have a problem" with the number of par-3's and par-5's on each nine.  I guess they don't understand the concept that the course fits the ground so well BECAUSE we were willing to go with an odd balance like that.  Either that, or they are just trying to show that even though the course is really good, it would have been better if only I'd listened to them.

[Terry Lavin]

I surely don't "know" which course is the "best" at Bandon, but I find it quite exhilarating that there are many informed golfers who ardently believe that Bandon Dunes is the best, or that Bandon Trails is the best, or that Pacific Dunes is the best, or that Old Macdonald is the best.  Personally, my favorite is Pacific Dunes, but I respect the arguments that I've heard for each of the courses by the individual proponents.  This is yet another feature that separates the Bandon Dunes resort from all others in the States.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: I told the guy exactly what you said about the size of the greens and he thought a moment and then he agreed.  I don't think that some people dislike PD because of the hole sequence but they just feel it is something to be noted. Personally, my short term memory is gone so I just forget a hole once I get to the next tee.

[George Pazin]

Either that, or they are just trying to show that even though the course is really good, it would have been better if only I'd listened to them.

  Goes along with your post on the other thread about tweaking all the time.

Everyone always thinks they know better than the other guy. That's a failing so common as to warrant a Shakespeare tragedy or three....

[Greg Tallman]

Matt just LOVES to debate precise rankings of equal or near-equal courses...

I'll say this: the Bandon Resort is certainly an example of the sum being greater than the total of its parts. In otherwords, the playing  experience of each course is enhanced by a golfer's ability to enjoy the other courses over a short time frame. Bandon Trails is fantastic on its own, but the golfer also gets to see what a skilled architect can do on a site that does not have the Pacific Ocean to work with, other than views.

Excellent post and for those that say they would play 8 of 10 rounds at the resort on a particular course (pick one) I say what the heck are you thinking?

How can playing ANY single course over and over be better than playing a different course each day when you know the course is going to be VERY, VERY good if not great. I love tuna sashimi more than one can imagine but would I eat it 8 days out of 10 when the other options are Kobe beef, Alaskan king crab and Maine lobster?  

[William_G]

I surely don't "know" which course is the "best" at Bandon, but I find it quite exhilarating that there are many informed golfers who ardently believe that Bandon Dunes is the best, or that Bandon Trails is the best, or that Pacific Dunes is the best, or that Old Macdonald is the best.  Personally, my favorite is Pacific Dunes, but I respect the arguments that I've heard for each of the courses by the individual proponents.  This is yet another feature that separates the Bandon Dunes resort from all others in the States.

Love that observation!

My favorite is always the one I'm playing at the time! LOL It would be the same as if there four great paintings/women/ cars etc...

But I would have to say for pure golf, the Bandon Resort is the best in the world. 

[William_G]

I played in a golf event yesterday and at the cocktail reception Bandon came up for discussion.  One player had just come back from a trip to Bandon and they had two foursomes.  The group had taken many trips including multiple trips to the UK and Ireland and well as many locations in the US including Pebble Beach and Kohler.  He said the consensus of the group was that PD was the best, and Trails and Bandon Dunes were tied for second.  They liked Old Mac the least.  I really questioned him about it and he said most of the guys were really good players and were not thrilled with the huge greens and felt that of the 4 courses the property was the least interesting.  He said the guys love PD but a couple had a hard time with the number of par 3s and par 5s on each nine.   So I guess that gca junkies like us love Old Mac but others may not but it is not much different than how we view the different ladies in the SI swimsuit issue - to each his own but everyone of them is outstanding.

Definitely can see where the property can be said to be the least interesting, it was the last course built 4COL. So the walk in the park test is kind of an incomplete at this point. But given that, it's incredible how well the Doak Urbina team did! Another phenomenal addition! Thanks!

[Matt_Ward]

No disrespect to NGLA but I laugh out loud if anyone believes that NGLA is a 10-0 edge over Old Macdonald. The new Bandon layuout is never dull and really elevates shotmaking with the various interpretations of Macdonald holes. I also believe the 7th will iin short order be seen as one of America's best par-4 holes for those that fit between 351 to 399 yards. What a fascinating green and when you walk up to the putting surfaces the view of the Pac Ocean and then looking back towards the course is overwhelming.

Jud:

I'm not throwing glowing accounts of Old Macdonald simply to appease a certain grouping of people. The course speaks for itself -- I've played all the others and simply believe that Old Macdonald has the fewest flaws and requires the more high level mark of consistency from a shotmaking perspective. There is room off the tee but it's far from "open" as certain lines of attack are the better choice.

Jud, it was inevitable that if Old Macdonald were as good as I and others think -- that certain people -- like John M -- would opt to play there as their priimary course of preference.

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Opinions are fine and you are most certainly entitled to yours as you have played over the course of a lifetime more than a fair share of courses. I have high respect for NGLA -- but the collaboration that created Old Macdonald hit a big time home run -- the course simply never disappoints and has elevated Bandon to an even greater height. I will be happy to opine on the different holes at OM with you and see what your thoughts are on them.

Tim B:

I hear what you say - but I do believe the 12th and 15th -- when held against the OTHER par-5 holes at PD -- simply pale in comparison. Yes, weak hitters who don't hit the ball far may still see them as you do. I just believe that the two holes provided a neceesary "brridge" to get to other more stellar holes -- the sensational par-4 13th and the final trio. They are not at that level in my mind.

Tom D:

You seem to misunderstand me -- I didn't say the 1th and 15th holes were bad just simply filler -- serving as a bridge to fill out the yarrdage dance card and getting to other holes of more importance. I really liked the 3rd at Oac and I also believe the 18th gets far little attentin than it properly should.

Tom -- maybe you help me understand something -- how much leeway does Old Macdonald provide? Off the tees -- yes. But from that point on it doesn't provide much welfare for any player without a really solid approach play and shorrt game -- especially with the flatstick.

[Tom_Doak]

I also believe the 7th will iin short order be seen as one of America's best par-4 holes for those that fit between 351 to 399 yards. What a fascinating green and when you walk up to the putting surfaces the view of the Pac Ocean and then looking back towards the course is overwhelming.

Matt:

Interesting.  I actually conceived of the hole as being longer than that ... there is a little bit of short grass off the back right corner of #9 green, which was supposed to be the back tee.  But, as with the 13th at Pacific Dunes, it is hard enough from there that they would never put the tees back there for summer play, so it didn't make the scorecard.  Wish I'd told you about it beforehand.

[Andy Gray]

Andy:

The hole at Old Macdonald is not that closely modeled on the Redan at North Berwick.  It's not really like any other Redan I've played.  But it's sure not easy.

Thanks Tom, I have no experience of any other Redan, I've only seen the pictures. Maybe I'm getting confused but is the green more like the one at NB i.e. not a big kicker in front and to the right of the green?

But come on, it's not THAT hard if I can play it in par for four rounds! 

[William_G]

Love the GCA, sometimes a golf course is like "i spy"... love it

[Jed Peters]

If I were to go back for a NON KP event, i'd skip BD and BT (okay, maybe one round at BT) and play PD and OM.

This is because of the sheer quality of the architecture.

Best,

Jed

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