[Matt_Ward]

I've made several visits to Bandon over the years and like many here I believe firmly that no love of golf can be complete without a mandatyory visit to the facility to play what it provides.

I recently played Old Macdonald -- the 4th course to open at Bandion -- and in my mind it's the ultimate place to play among all of the golf options the facility provides.

Pacific Dunes is a wonderful course to play but Old Macdonald has the greatert diversity of holes -- very few weak ones -- and the routing makes skillful usage so that the wind is much more than one dimensional in beging just into or with you.

The greens determine the final element at Old Macdonald and they are utterly fascinatying and at times exasperating because of their pitches and rolls. What makes it even more demanding is how the wind simply idssects shotmaking to the nnth degree. In almost al the approaches one plays at Old Macdonald you have to know the exact yardage and at the same time calculate the bonce of the ball when it lands on the putting surfaces.

I have more to say and will opine on each hole -- in simple terms Old Macdonald has talken Bandon to another klevel -- hard to imagine that the roof could be raised from where it was previously but it has with this course.

[Kevin Pallier]

Matt

I concur.

As a once only visitor to the resort I thought OM is indeed the standout layout. It might not have the extreme highs of PD but it's consistent high quality leads me to favour it over it's older sibling.

[Ronald Montesano]

MattWard...you say that EIEIO has "very few weak ones."  Does that mean that Pac Dunes, Trails and Ban Dunes all have more than a few weak ones each?

Curious to know which ones.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I've heard that from a lot of people.

Is that the ultimate tribute to the genius of CB Macdonald ?

Tom Doak ?

Mike Keiser ?

Or, all of them ?

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

I may have erred with the word "weak."

Old Macdonald is just a superb layout - the strength of the course is the greens -- they are large but they present small targets which the player must access to make a score. Yoiu also have the wind which can blow in quite severe terms and when that happens the so-called "par" for the hole is really meaningless.

I think Old Macdonald has the best of the routing -- the holes do not favor a pattern -- and unlike Pac Dunes in which the pat-5' holes play more of a bysnatnder capacity -  the par-5 holes at Old Macdonald are quite significant and very much a a challenge.

I will opine on the individual holes shortly.

Just a marvelous course to play and the level of details is clearly well done.

[Jim Nugent]

It will be interesting to see in time which course most people here on the DG end up liking more:  Old Mac or NGLA.   

[Jonathan Cummings]

Jim - strange comparison.  Both are great but given the chance I'd play NGLA 10-0 over damn near anyplace including OM.  JC

[Brad Klein]

I think it's time for a slug fest on who actually designed Old Macdonald. After the Merion thread (well, it's never "after") and now NGLA, it's time to destroy this site altogether.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Does Old MacDonald get a few bonus points in people's subconscious because they are unwittingly patting themselves on the back for recognising all the features that are inspired by yesteryear's holes?

Pacific Dunes does not have that advantage...

N.B. I have played neither course and I have read very few threads on this website about Old MacDonald other than enough to realise that it seems to be getting overwhelming praise by many as the best course on the property....

[Jim Franklin]

I think it's time for a slug fest on who actually designed Old Macdonald. After the Merion thread (well, it's never "after") and now NGLA, it's time to destroy this site altogether.

I was wondering the motive for the NGLA thread as well. Some people have too much time on their hands and just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Anyway, I believ who designed Old Mac is well documented on this site and each person deserves a pat on the back for a job well done. I thought it was the best of the bunch as well and I really love Pac Dunes too.

[Tim Bert]

Score one for Pacific Dunes here though it seems I will be in the minority before long!  I am not sure about the merits of the design, but Pacific Dunes will always win my "one more round" test - a fact it proved in June when I abandoned my final tee time at Old Macdonald to return to the sexy beast to play solo in a blinding rain storm.

Both are wonderful courses and I am glad we have one more choice at the resort. For guys with a classic bias, I think Old Macdonald brings home the best of both worlds like no other course I have played.  The real test from the public will be how the annual rounds are split between the four courses in maybe two years time. I am not yet convinced it will finish better than third due to the attraction of the ocean.

[Tim Martin]

Jim Franklin-I believe that Brad Klein`s post was tongue in cheek.

[Chris Shaida]

Does Old MacDonald get a few bonus points in people's subconscious because they are unwittingly patting themselves on the back for recognising all the features that are inspired by yesteryear's holes?

Ally, that's interesting but it also may be that there is another way to frame the whole template/inspiration thing.  If one thought of the template as a 'form' (like a sonnet is a form or a sonata is a form) rather than a copyable thing doesn't that take one away from mild pejoratives like 'subconscious patting oneself on the back'?

So Rilke wrote a poem cycle (in sonnet form) that is generally recognized as one of the great poetic works of the 20th century and he doesn't get dinged for using an existing form--no one says 'does Rilke get bonus points in critics' subconscious because they are unwittingly patting themselves on the back for recognising all the features that are inspired by yesteryears' sonnets?'"  Since the form is explicitly named the subconscious doesn't really need to do any work 'recognising' anything!

I wonder if we might not get further in understanding the enduring appeal of certain hole 'forms' by thinking of them in this way rather than each new one as somehow a 'copy' that is somehow less than creative or original?

[it now occurs to me that this is probably getting pretty off-topic but as I've gone this far...]

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt: Do you think that Old Mac is their interpretation of the CBM holes or do you view Old Mac as their view of what CBM would have done - I don't know if I am making myself clear or if this is a distinction without a difference.  But anyway, what do you think?

[George Pazin]

Jim Franklin-I believe that Brad Klein`s post was tongue in cheek.

I thought the NGLA thread was as well...

[Jim Franklin]

Jim Franklin-I believe that Brad Klein`s post was tongue in cheek.

I understand his Old Mac reference was tongue-in-cheek, but the ruining of the site with the NGLA thread is real. Why do we need another derisive thread about who did what and when...is beyond me. In the end, each person will believe what they want and no amount a factual eveidence will change that opinion so why start that thread?

[PThomas]

Jim Franklin-I believe that Brad Klein`s post was tongue in cheek.

i wouldnt bet on that....

[John Mayhugh]

Jonathan,
I'm with you.  I thought Old Macdonald was wonderful, but would still pick NGLA 10-0.

Ally,
Tough to argue against subconsicous influences, but I think that people carrying around the template idea hurts Old Macdonald more than helps it.  I played three rounds there in a single day and gave almost no thought to templates.  The hole concepts are so well-executed that the interest is in playing the course.  The concepts used make for a great course, but the idea of templates has essentially no role in my enjoyment of it.

Jerry,
I know you asked Matt this question but I'll give my thoughts too.  Old Macdonald is not an interpretation of CBM's "templates."  I think the design team built a course that was lots of fun, big, & bold - just as CBM might have done.  They probably got inspiration from his courses as well as the courses that inspired him.  The result is a course that feels a lot like NGLA and one you could believe CBM designed.  

[John Kirk]

Jonathan,
I'm with you.  I thought Old Macdonald was wonderful, but would still pick NGLA 10-0.

Ally,
Tough to argue against subconsicous influences, but I think that people carrying around the template idea hurts Old Macdonald more than helps it.  I played three rounds there in a single day and gave almost no thought to templates.  The hole concepts are so well-executed that the interest is in playing the course.  The concepts used make for a great course, but the idea of templates has essentially no role in my enjoyment of it.

Jerry,
I know you asked Matt this question but I'll give my thoughts too.  Old Macdonald is not an interpretation of CBM's "templates."  I think the design team built a course that was lots of fun, big, & bold - just as CBM might have done.  They probably got inspiration from his courses as well as the courses that inspired him.  The result is a course that feels a lot like NGLA and one you could believe CBM designed.  

Wow...

John/Jonathan,

Wow!  10-0? 

I've played NGLA once, so I have a repeat play bias at work.  But, Johnny "New Courses Are Better" sees it 5-5 at a minimum.

I'm very interested in discussing Old Macdonald in detail.  Keep it coming, Matt!

[John Mayhugh]

Wow!  10-0? 

I've played NGLA once, so I have a repeat play bias at work.  But, Johnny "New Courses Are Better" sees it 5-5 at a minimum.

It's probably not logical, but I just loved NGLA that much.  I'm also Johnny "Old Courses Are Better" so you should keep that in mind.  Also, if I had unlimited access to NGLA, I might mix it up a bit more.  But if I had a chance for ten rounds there, I would play every one of them.

Of ten rounds at Bandon, I would probably play 8 at Old Macdonald.

[Tim Bert]

The 10-0 is just astounding to me. It might just be different perspective but I can't imagine taking any two courses I though were outstanding and dividing them up 10-0. 10 is a big number if rounds and if I really like the second course I'm at least going to play it once offside even if I love the primary course. For my personal preference 10-0 will only happen when I have a strong distaste for one of the two courses in question.  I could 2-0 or 3-0 but 10 times and you can't find use for one round at Old Mac?

JC or JM - is it NGLA or is it Old Macdonald. Could you provide an example of a course that wouldn't get shut out by NGLA and tell us how many of the ten you'd play there just to add some context?

[John Mayhugh]

The 10-0 is just astounding to me. It might just be different perspective but I can't imagine taking any two courses I though were outstanding and dividing them up 10-0. 10 is a big number if rounds and if I really like the second course I'm at least going to play it once offside even if I love the primary course. For my personal preference 10-0 will only happen when I have a strong distaste for one of the two courses in question.  I could 2-0 or 3-0 but 10 times and you can't find use for one round at Old Mac?

JC or JM - is it NGLA or is it Old Macdonald. Could you provide an example of a course that wouldn't get shut out by NGLA and tell us how many of the ten you'd play there just to add some context?

We are probably not looking at it the same way.  If you said I had ten rounds to split between NGLA and Old Macdonald, I would take all ten at NGLA because I'm not sure if I'll ever get another chance to play there.  If you said to assume that I had unlimited access to both courses, travel was not an issue, and I should decide how to split my next ten rounds only - that might mean 7-3 for NGLA.

[Michael Underwood]

I have been to Bandon Dunes Golf Resort three times (2005, 2007, 2010) and have now played each of the courses.  Our group has booked a trip for August 2011 in which we will be there for four days and play six rounds of golf.  The group put me in charge of setting the tee times and picking the courses that we will play.  I booked two rounds at Pacific Dunes, two rounds at Old Macdonald, and one round each at Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails.  They are all excellent, but I personally give a slight edge to Pacific Dunes over all others.  I enjoy all of the Bandon offerings, but at this point in time Pacific Dunes is my favorite because it is such a wonderful test of golf in a wonderful setting. JMO

[Adam Clayman]

Don't mean to derail, but i wanted to touch on the ruining of the site comment. I thought Brad's remark was perfect. But the uissue I have trouble getting around is how some of these historians, put so much credence in old newspaper accounts. If we use today as context, the mis-information inherent in today's newspapers, makes relying on them for historical accuracy, a flippin joke. So why should 1911 be any different?

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry:

Hard for me to say with certainty -- but Old Macdonald just seems to have the best combionation of holes in my mind. When I look at Pac Dunes I see the two of the three par-5 holes on the back -- the 12th and 15th as filler holes -- holes that get you to another hole of distinction -- with the 12th it's the lead in to the 13th -- with the 15th it's to the final trio. I don't see either the 12th or 15th as especially noteworthy.

Old Macdonald is not exact replicas but the combionation of the topography and the manner by which the greens are so contoured calls for utterly precise approach play. Anyone having 40-50 foot putts the whole day is sure to three-putt more than a few times.

Gents:

Can we stick to the topic at hand -- thanks ...

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