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Robert Mercer Deruntz

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True reverse Redan's
« on: August 29, 2010, 11:37:24 PM »
This is the 8th hole at Knollwood that plays 185 yards.  The green is sloped front left to back right, even though the round kicker mound creates an illusion.  Miss the green long right and in dry conditions the slope is so severe the ball will go 40+ yards to the bottom.






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Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2010, 11:57:44 PM »
Robert:

Nice photos -- what's the true angle of the tee to the green? Difficult to tell from these pics. Is the green at an angle to the tee? Would anyone hit a draw into this green?

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TEPaul

Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2010, 02:16:43 AM »
In my opinion, and in the opinions of those who saw it there was simply no reverse redan anywhere that was quite so good as the Reverse Redan at The Links Club.

It's gone now, as the course is, but I can still see it today as clearly as I could in the late 70s or early 80s. What a magnificent and semi-inscrutable hole. You pretty much felt to get the ball close to most all its pins you pretty much had to hit a shot as exact as that incredible shot Matt Kuchar hit today to the 18th hole in the playoff at the Barclay!

The thing about that Links Club reverse redan was that even if it seems slightly downhillish, the orientation of the green to the tee and the kicker was just so similar to NGLA's or even Piping's but in the reverse and a bit down, but with that hole you pretty much had to get the trajectory, distance and the so-called "weight" of your tee shot so much more precise than on the other two mentioned.

It drove my Dad and all his really good playing Links club member playing partners nuts (they were usually James Knott, Bobby Grant, Red and Tommy Choate) and the interesting thing, which frankly I just thought of this very moment, is ALL OF THEM belonged to and played Piping and NGLA and played them all regularly! But for those guys, they only played The Links one day a week and that was always on Sunday. The only reason was that was the only day the Links Club had THE LUNCH!   :)

And then there was Bert, who ran the little clubhouse. Don't get me started on BERT!  ;)
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George_Bahto

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Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2010, 09:33:09 AM »
Tom from all that I have head, including interviewing the old (and only) super, Ben Zukoski, I'm not sure anyone was allowed to bring guests to Links - nor take pictures (before it went under) - although Benny had a couple he shared.

That was the idea of the place - totally private
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2010, 09:46:05 AM »
by the way, the Reversed Redan at Sleepy plays perfectly - one of the few that actually does kick-in properly


from behind the green

IMG]http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g85/ggb313/07shccfmTDSCN9856.jpg[/IMG]


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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2010, 09:49:12 AM »
from the tee at Sleepy Hollow

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

astavrides

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Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2010, 03:11:16 PM »
#6 at Fox Chapel. 
#3 at Pasatiempo
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2010, 08:51:09 PM »
here is what the 7th at Sleepy looks like today with the new fescue growth

« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 08:53:15 PM by George_Bahto »
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2010, 09:57:18 PM »
George,

The Sleepy Hollow reversed redan appears to be significantly down-hill.  Can you explain how it plays and how it can have the proper kick-in?

Thanks
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2010, 10:24:54 PM »
A great example is #8 at the Creek Club...clearly one of the best in the Metro area.
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2010, 10:39:16 PM »
JC - it is significantly down hill and at the "proper" angle of play. I'll look at the topo. It's hard to say how much the drop is because there a few tees, some pretty much higher than others - probably a 45' drop (average tee to middle of green) on average

you can go right at the green (but preferably short right) but if you play the high shoulder/rough approach as they did in the old days, the ball feed down to into the green. We reestablished the "hockey-stick" bunker along the left that also runs behind

we've been going pretty strong fast and firm thru the course but I haven't seen the balls reaction under those conditions - perhaps Corey can chime in - he played it a LOT!!

Here at Sleepy Hollow we have one of the best reversed Redans and certainly the worse Biarritz ever designed by Macdonald and his Henchmen
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2010, 10:46:19 PM »
Concur with astavrides...Numero seis at Capilla del zorro (Fox Chapel) is freaking awesome.
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Dean DiBerardino

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Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2010, 11:54:30 PM »
Is this thread for par-threes only?  If not, how about the par-four first at Fox Chapel?  I'm pretty sure the green is a "nader" and more natural/less manufactured than the sixth (both are great).





« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 10:09:41 AM by Dean DiBerardino »
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Ian Andrew

Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2010, 12:10:45 AM »
The green at Knollwood slopes up for the first third and and then down for the last half. It's not really a redan any more. It's a rebuild of the original green done in the 1990's. The club is entertaining a proposal to rebuild the green back into a reverse redan.
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Ian Andrew

Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2010, 12:12:11 AM »
Quote from: George_Bahto on August 30, 2010, 09:46:05 AM
by the way, the Reversed Redan at Sleepy plays perfectly - one of the few that actually does kick-in properly

I was very impressed with Sleepy Hollow's, very cool green site.

I also like the Creek Club's too.
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Bill Satterfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2010, 01:43:17 AM »
Would the 11th hole at Los Angeles CC (North) qualify for discussion here?


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Donnie Beck

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Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2010, 05:24:13 AM »








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Ronald Montesano

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Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2010, 06:39:03 AM »
Donnie, is that Fisher's Island?
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Coming in 2024
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2010, 09:53:24 AM »
the 12th at Fishers Island is a wonderful "Two-shot" reversed Redan - meaning after a very good drive you are faced with an ideal Reversed Redan

A very similar hole is the 17th at Essex County CC in NJ

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2010, 10:16:25 AM »
Par 3 7th at Black Creek in Chattanooga, TN



9th at Chambers Bay is severely downhill, but can be bounced on from the left:

« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 10:18:43 AM by Scott_Burroughs »
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Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2010, 10:24:50 AM »
Here is Charles Banks' version at Forsgate. The bunker is 10 feet deep, the kick mound kicks (I used it well, played 1 1/2 clubs less than I normally would) but the overhead wires are very unfortunate...



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Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2010, 10:36:40 AM »
#17 (non USGA routing) at Interlachen in Edina would qualify.

Brad
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2010, 10:55:34 AM »
#8 at Tobacco Road:

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Scott Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2010, 12:06:02 PM »
13th at Wolf Run?  Not "true", but definitely a form.
It's all carry to the kick-plate, and that landing zone is hidden from view and very severe - but there's no question it's a thrilling way to play to a back right pin. 
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TEPaul

Re: True reverse Redan's
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2010, 04:07:04 PM »
"Donnie, is that Fisher's Island?"


Tricks:

Yes, that's Fishers Island.
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