Thoughts on Pete and Alice Dye Courses

[Mac Plumart]

Prior to leaving for my last golf trip, Jim Briggs asked me to post some of my thoughts on Pete Dye and hopefully get a nice discussion going.  Well, given I just read the section entitled “Lessons from My Mentors” on Tom Doak’s website and in that section he says the following, “I owe whatever I have achieved in the business to Pete and Alice Dye,” I figured tonight would be as good a night as any to start this thread.

My first experience with a Pete Dye designed course was when I played Kiawah Ocean course in August of 2009, while on a golf trip family vacation.  To say I was impressed would be an understatement.  From the first tee shot to holing out on 18, the course is an intense challenge.




Just a few weeks after that I had to get up to West Virginia to play The Pete Dye Golf Club of WV.  Golfweek ranked it higher than Kiawah Ocean and if that was an accurate ranking, I just had to play it.




A few months later, I trekked all over Florida and made the time to play TPC Sawgrass.




Early this year, I had the good fortune of hitting Harbour Town with the fellow GCA’ers.




Then came Paiute (Wolf).  Every March I like to make a trip to Vegas to partake in some college basketball betting and a little golf.  My good fortune would have it that my golfing buddies lined up this hidden Pete Dye gem.




Then this summer on another golfing trip family vacation I had the unbelievable good fortune of playing The Golf Club in Ohio.




Thus far that is the extent of my playing experience regarding Pete and Alice Dye designed courses.  Frankly, I find common themes in each one…but yet some very unique aspects to each course as well. 

Now bear in mind, I am not the all-knowing golf architecture expert.  I am simply a guy that has a deep sickness passion for the game of golf.  Why?  I really don’t know.  I get asked this all the time.  Why do you get so into all these weird aspects of golf?  I have no frickin’ idea.  I am sick passionate.   What can I say?

Nevertheless, here are my thoughts on the courses I have played and my observations relative to Dye courses.

Kiawah Ocean is an unrelenting  test of golfing skill.  The routing of the course is off the charts with the key ingredient being how he twists and turns those holes to allow the wind to mess with the golfers mind/game.  I would say, in general, the internal contours of his greens are not that extreme.  He seems to make the greens interesting relative to where they are in relation to the tee and how those greens are protected with angles, bunkers, and some internal contours.  But again, I can’t say his greens are wild once you are on them.






The PDGC Of WV is another unrelenting test of golfing skill.  It is very similar to Kiawah Ocean in many regards, but instead of being on a beach this one is in the mountains.  Both courses are stunningly beautiful, but The Ocean course has the massive winds and therefore I think just a bit more difficult.  I think the 17th green at the PDGC of WV is the most “wild” Pete Dye green I have ever seen.



But it is at the end of a short par 4, so I think it is very “fair”.  And you know what, I think Mr. Dye’s courses are very “fair.”  Many people hate that term, but I really think it is applicable.


TPC Sawgrass is to date my least favorite Pete Dye course.  I found its mounding being a little to fake looking and many of its features being totally unnatural looking. 



Frankly, many of those features were very geometric in appearance and reminded me of some of the features I see on Raynor courses.  Now don’t get me wrong, they make for “fun” shots…they just catch my eye in such a way that I notice how “unnatural” they look. 



This was the first Pete Dye island green I played.  To be blunt, I hate it.  I love Pete Dye courses.  I like TPC Sawgrass in many instances…but I really dislike 17.  It looks unnatural.  It feels contrived.  16 is a GREAT hole.  18 is a GREAT hole.  17 is not my cup of tea.

Harbour Town will live forever in my mind as the first great example of “pacing” rather than routing I ever noticed.  It starts on a tightly wooded and tree lined hole and continues for quite some time with this  claustrophobic precision required strategic golf style. 



Every once in awhile things will open up and you will get a sense you are out of the woods and into the open, but only to be drawn back into the tight tree lined fairways.  Then you hit 16.  It feels open.  It feels like you are out of the forest/woods.  But oh no, there is a tree right in the middle of the fairway blocking the approach to the green.  And even though you feel you’ve made it out of the woods, you are quickly reminded that you haven’t.  And then it happens.  The walk to the 17th tee opens the course to the waterway and the trees give way and you are free.  My host described this walk as the “Stairway to Heaven” and he is right.  That feeling is quite overwhelming. 



After that hole you are on to 18 and that is the widest fairway on the PGA Tour.  What a mind blower that is.  I found this course to be amazingly unique to any course I’ve ever played and certainly unique to any Pete Dye course I’d played to date.

Paiute (Wolf) was a total trip.  We’d played Shadow Creek, Cascata, and Bears Best on this Vegas trip and my buddies squeezed in this course on the last day.  Frankly, I wasn’t excited to play it.  It was the most inexpensive, I hadn’t heard of it, it couldn’t be good, right?  WRONG!!!  It may never be Top 100, but it was fun!!!  Fun, fun, fun!!  Quirk here and there, solid routing to take advantage of the desert winds, and a lot of cool holes. 



Now it does have its issues.  It has that island green that Dye is famous for and that hole is COMPLETEY out of place on this course and it has some of the over the top and unnatural looking mounds that I found on TPC Sawgrass.  But hey, it was a really fun course.  So, I can live with it.

And The Golf Club.  Oh my God, The Golf Club.  To date, the most perfect golfing experience I have ever enjoyed.  Frankly, it felt a little similar to Harbour Town in that many of the early holes were in the woods and at hole 13 the course opened up in a dramatic shift.  The vastness and seclusion of the property is off the charts.  And the feeling of being out there is amazing.  Perhaps a critic could put down a few holes here or there or say negative things about this or that, but that is okay with me.  This is THE golf course for me.






I suppose I’m getting long winded again…apologies.  I guess to wrap things up, I’ve enjoyed each and every Pete Dye course I’ve ever played.  I find that he has a few “template” style holes that he likes to repeat from time to time, but at the same time he has the ability to bring a new and unique feel to a course when he wants to.  I also think he really relishes the chance to test the best golfers, but I also get a sense that he takes pride in giving higher handicap golfers a chance to enjoy his work if they simply play the correct tees.

Please feel free to weigh in on this topic with any and all question and comments.  Those in the know, please say what you will.  I would love to know anything and everything about The Dye’s and their work.

[Andy Troeger]

Mac,
Lots of good thoughts there. I've played quite a few of Pete Dye's courses, 21 at last count including a couple of renovations. There are some common themes in his courses, but viewing the changes in his ideas over time is also very different. The change from an understated course like The Golf Club to the very wild Whistling Straits and French Lick courses is quite remarkable. I have to admit that I like the older stuff best, especially The Golf Club, which is still in my top five overall.

For as many Dye courses as I've played, we don't overlap all that much except for TGC, Sawgrass, and Harbour Town. I do like Sawgrass a lot--its not natural as you say but that doesn't bother me. Nor does the island green, despite my making an 8 with two balls in the water. Pete Dye GC looks amazing.

My favorite Dye courses in order are: TGC, Blackwolf Run River, TPC Sawgrass, Honors Course, Whistling Straits, Crooked Stick, Long Cove, and Harbour Town. I think all of those deserve 100 Greatest USA status. Bulle Rock and Promontory in Utah are well worth playing as well.

[Adam Clayman]

Mac,
 The first thing that jumped off your piece was about the word 'fair'. People, as I understand it, don't hate that word. The word worthy of disdain is "unfair".

One of the main positive results that comes from Pete's use of relentless challenge is... How accomplished us mere mortals feel, when we survive those challenges. It pulls on the sportsman's heart strings, when he/she successfully overcomes "the shot's" exacting nature.

 Better players expect to pull these shots off, so, they get flustered when they don't.

IMO, Pete Dye uses the weakest design elements (Trees water and rough) to their fullest.

Of the courses you've listed I've only played Sawgrass. So, I must say i'm impressed with your list, and, you should consider yourself well versed in what appears to be many of Pete's best.

One critique; How you played, is of no consequence to an objective analysis. Subjective "cup of teas' (Island greens) should allow you to question yourself why you feel that way. BTW, As Island greens go, the 17th at TPC is one of the best. But Pete does Island greens a lot. Many have sand surrounding them, but can be just as exacting, albeit, having recoverability.

 

[Paul Jones]

I think one of my favorite aspects of Pete Dye is that he rarely has a straight hole.  You can usually see the green from tee box, but have to play around something to get there.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mac, I have played all the courses you sited.  You bring up some excellent points.  I especially like the difference between "pacing" and "routing".  I hadn't thought of it in that way.  And you are right, he does have a few template holes.  The one I like the least is some variation of a cape 18th hole.  It has been almost 20 years since I played The Golf Club, if I remember correctly 18, while not a cape hole, plays similarly to one.  The same can be said of 18 at Pete Dye Golf Club. 
I like the challenge of his courses but I think  his courses can beat up a 20 handicapper.  Paiute, however, is an exception to that rule. 
Harbor Town may be one of my favorite Dye courses.  It makes you think and perform all the way around. It rewards those who understand aggressive restraint.
I love TPC Sawgrass.  It is one of the best thought out golf courses I know.  This course also understands pacing.  The last three holes are the dénouement of a symphony of endless beauty and variation.   

[Mac Plumart]

Great posts guys.  This is what I hoped would happen.  Already I've learned a few things and a few more ideas and food for thought have been added to these Dye courses that I need to consider and check out next time I play them...or any other course for that matter.

Thanks...and keep'em coming.

[Jim_Coleman]

   If I were to pick one "feature" that I believe describes Pete Dye's "style," I would say it's that his greens are more often than not angled to the approaching fairway.  Therefore, although his fairways tend to be generous, the proper angle to the green is often not generous.  Because his green complexes can be so unforgiving, it turns out his fairways aren't as forgiving as they may appear.  Hence, the easy bogey and difficult par.  In my mind, very good stuff.

[PCCraig]

Mac:

I am a big fan of Pete Dye and his work. While he and his firm have done their fair share of residential clunkers, he has done some amazing things and his courses deserve study. Sure many of them look flashy and jump out at you visually, but there are solid GCA fundementals present in most of his designs. His work at The Ocean Course, WS, Blackwolf Run, TPC Sawgrass, Crooked Stick, and even recently at French Lick are all very good.

Another reason why I admire his work is that he is always trying something new, for better or worse and has never defined himself as a repeatable "product."

Mac - For someone always looking for a good golf book and with your love of Dye, make sure you have Joel Zuckerman's book on Pete Dye's lifetime of work.

[jim_lewis]

It seems to me that it is very risky to generalize about the work of an architect, especially Pete Dye. I have played most of the courses mentioned above (including Long Cove which I don't think has been mentioned), and they are all excellent courses. On the otherhand, I have no interest in playing Plum Creek (Colorado), Rancho Santa Fe Farm, Colleton River-Dye, or Barefoot Landing-Dye again.

While I love his best work, I have a real problem with his tendency to place bunkers in rediculous places (my opinion!). I noticed it first about 35 years ago when I saw the pot bunker just left of the 14th green at Harbour Town. That habit really blossomed at the Honors Course. At Colleton River and Barefoot Landing it is really rediculous, and based on tv viewing only, he takes it to a completely new level at Whistling Straights.
I think I like his early work better.

His renovation (don't dare call it a restoration) of Birmingham CC West served to alarm Ross fans and probably helped spawn the movement to take care when tinkering with the dead guys' courses. Thankfully, it also seemed to put an end to Pete's renovation work (as far as I know).

[Michael Huber]

I think one of my favorite aspects of Pete Dye is that he rarely has a straight hole.  You can usually see the green from tee box, but have to play around something to get there.

Last weekend I played my first Pete Dye course (well, at least it was an effort between him and PB Dye), and I noticed that it seemed strange that every single hole had some sort of odd angle from tee to green.  What I find impressive is that he and PB did not rely on only wetlands/trees/water to "move" the holes. 

[Tom_Doak]

Talking this broadly about the Dyes' courses is just as difficult to do as talking broadly about Colt or MacKenzie or Ross.  You are apt to over-generalize, and one thing I can tell you about Mr. Dye from personal experience is that while he likes to do variations of things he's done before, he really does not like to do the same thing over again ... though he was occasionally compelled to by a particular client or two to whom he had a hard time saying no.

In general, though, Pete has seldom had a hard time saying no to clients. 

I could go on for pages about what I learned from Mr. and Mrs. Dye, but I seldom do so, because I don't want anyone to think I am overstating what I did for them.  I was a laborer for a while, then drew plans for a bit because Pete hated to do them, then got to shape and help run a job for Pete and Perry (Riverdale Dunes), and then handled the renovation of Piping Rock.  I didn't do nearly as much for them as guys like David Postlethwait or Lee Schmidt or Jason McCoy or Scott Pool or Bobby Weed who ran multiple jobs for Pete.  But, I did have the opportunity to spend a lot of time around Mr. and Mrs. Dye over 3-4 years -- especially at Long Cove and in the planning for PGA West -- and it had a huge impact on me because I pretty much remember everything he ever said to me.

My main takeaways:

1.  Construction is part and parcel of design.  Anybody can design a hole or a course on paper; what matters is how well it works in the ground.

2.  Find good people to work for you, and don't tell them more than you need to ... let them work out the rest.

3.  Treat the crew just as well as you treat the client.  The clients seemed to enjoy the give-and-take with Pete, although I'm sure it kept some away who wanted to be treated differently.

4.  Getting the average person around the golf course is very important.  Alice insisted on making the course enjoyable for the 25-handicap woman, and understood how length and forced carries destroyed them.  Pete looked for every trick he could that would make the course harder for the best players without affecting the average player too much.  [Yes, everything affects the average player, too, and maybe more than the scratch player, but you are trying to reduce the multiplier to the extent possible.  This would correlate with a low-slope course, if the Slope System really worked, which I don't think it does very well.]

5.  Try to do something different.  I knew I wouldn't be successful if I went out on my own and tried to build courses that looked like Mr. Dye's ... you could hire his sons for that.  But sometime in the first two weeks I worked at Long Cove, Pete told me that one of the keys to his success was his decision at Harbour Town to go in the opposite direction from what everyone else was building.  And when it came time to go on my own, and everyone else was trying to build courses that looked like Pete's, it was pretty obvious to go in the other direction and look for a project on good land where we didn't have to move dirt around.  I'm just lucky to have found one and to keep finding them.

6.  Pete was a big fan of Raynor and Macdonald courses ... National and Camargo at the top of the list.  It is not surprising that many of his greens tend to look like theirs.  Crooked Stick and Teeth of the Dog (in their original forms) were fascinating studies because each of them had holes and greens inspired not just by Macdonald but MacKenzie and Tillinghast and Ross, too.  That's why it is sad to me that both courses have been rebuilt, because a lot of that stuff has been removed or homogenized by shapers who didn't understand its origins.

7.  Pete's legacy will be hard for people to sort out because his name is attached to every course he's done or his sons have done, no matter how much or how little time he spent on them.  For most of his best projects, he spent 100 or more days on site during construction, and that is really what he likes to do best ... to play in the dirt.

[Scott Szabo]

The only ones I've played are here in Colorado - Plum Creek and Riverdale Dunes, and enjoyed both of them immensely.

Jim Lewis - what specifically turned you off about Plum Creek?

Sadly, it is overgrown with homes now and looks nothing like it did back in the mid-80s when it opened.

[PCCraig]

Tom,

Wonderful post, thanks for sharing.

Considering how well you know Pete Dye's work, would you say that his willingness to be different makes it hard to define a point in his career where his work "peaked?"

He seems to be one to "rise to the occation" when given a great site or was able to visit often? It seems the courses he spent the most time on were the courses either early in his career where he had the time to tinker and build what he wanted or on high quality sites where the land dictated the routing and strategy were his best.

Also, while myself and others on this thread noted that he has built his share of poor golf courses...you have to give him credit that he has built great golf courses on all types of properties from swamp land to ocean side dunes. He can go low-key and natural or he can build an entire site. Very neat...I am glad he's still out there trying new things and taking on projects that require him to visit often (French Lick).

[Eric Smith]

You want to know what is sad is he and his son PB have built a helluva golf course on top of a mountain in Tennessee that probably will never see an opening day.

I was privileged to play the front 9 holes with one of the former company guys and it was breathtaking.  Never played a true mountain course with wider fairways.  They have, or had, some great golf holes up there.

[Mark Smolens]

In the mid-90s I went with a group of guys in the office down to Ponte Vedra for about 6 straight years. Two of us had non-resident members at TPC Sawgrass (used to be cheap and a great deal). Once I was able to convince the higher handicappers to play the white tees, the Stadium Course became playable to the nth degree. Just the way the tees were positioned differently from the further back tee boxes made all the difference in the world (and reduced the number of balls in the hazard and hours on the course immensely!). Dogleg left, dogleg right, danger everywhere. . . what a fun ride Sawgrass is. . .

[Chris_Clouser]

I think the most obvious thing for me over all of his courses throughout his career is how his style evolved over time.  I have played every course Pete Dye has touched in Indiana with the exception of the French Lick course.  I am amazed at how places like Eagle Creek appear to fit in so well and then you can have a place like Brickyard Crossing that is just so unnatural by the same hands.  I think strategically his courses all do the same thing and test multiple shots and have great green complexes.  And as Tom Doak pointed out he has several similar holes from course to course but they are never exactly the same.

Tom Doak,

I agree wholeheartedly with you about Crooked Stick.  

[Pete Lavallee]

As the husband of a golfing spouse, I appreciate Alice's influence on placing the forward tees at the appropriate distances. The average male hits drives about 210 yards with the average female drive traveling about 140 yards; clearly putting the reds markers 20 yards forward of the whites will not offer a pleasant or comparable experience. Our Pete Dye Jr. course, Carlton Oaks, here in San Diego allows her to hit irons into most greens and she has a hell of a lot more fun than banging 3 wood all day.

I'll agree that most Pet Dye courses incorporate angles into the tee shot strategy. Unfortunately these angles tend to dissapear if you move up and play off the white tees. I guess when you cater to the expert player, you can't bre all things to all people, now can you.

[Matt Kardash]

Out of all the great architects did any work on a small percentage of great sites than Dye?

[Matthew Petersen]

I have only played one of Dye's well-known courses (PGA West Stadium) and the others I have played are all from a relatively similar time period and design style in his career (Plum Creek, ASU Karsten, Red Mtn Ranch, Riverdale Dunes). These are the courses that have the Pete Dye trademark look of huge mounding, severe contours, lots of railroad ties, and an unnatural look. And still I have really enjoyed all of those courses. PGA West is difficult to the point of absurdity, but even then it is absolutely fair--a demand is presented and the player must either rise to it or find some other way around (or, perhaps, admit he chose the wrong set of tees). As so many have said, while the "trademarks" I mentioned above are what most think of when they think of Dye, what makes his courses generally so excellent is his use of angles.

What really speaks to his talent, however, is the number of courses he has built that bear no resemblance at all to the prototypical Dye design--TOC, WS, PDGC and others. He is like a great artist--you can almost always identify his work, but it's due to a feeling more than the definite presence of any given feature.

I've also played several courses designed by his sons. Green Valley Ranch in Denver is a course I worked at when it opened in 2001 and is  a really excellent course.

[jim_lewis]

Scott:

I lived in Castle Pines in the early nineties and played Plum Creek 3-5 times in 1991 and 1992. I left the area in 1995, but I never played the course during the last 3 years I lived there. I don't remember lots of detail, so I can't give specifics. I just remember that I was not very impressed. I do recall that they were really struggling financially at the time and had gone semi-private. There was a senior tour event there briefly in the late 80's.

On the otherhand, I often recommended Riverdale Dunes to anyone looking for a good daily fee course. At that time Riverdale Dunes was a much better course. I would be delighted to learn that Plum Creek has improved, but I doubt if the addition of houses helped.

BTW, Tom mentioned that Pete's name appears on some courses where he let his sons do most of the work. I always suspected that to be the case some of his weaker courses.

[Carl Rogers]

How would the Dye's lesser known courses rate as an overall consistency of effort?

I have played 3:
Kingsmill River Course, Virginia Beach National & Pete Dye River Course at Virginia Tech.  Kingsmill cost way too much, Virginia Beach National is one of these courses that looks harder than it is and the Virgina Tech course has a stunning site at a bend of the New River but to me is a bit over cooked.

[Wade Schueneman]

Mac,

I noticed that the Golf Club toped your site when I checked it recently and immediately thought to myself that you really do like Pete Dye courses (I remember you talking about your affinity for Kiawah and PDGC and Harbor Town).  We will have to play soon so that you can tell me about TGC in detail.

Mr. Doak,

I had suspected that many of the Dyes' courses might have been hampered by clients who wanted to recreate some other Dye course (such as the TPC paradigm).  I find it interesting that your comments seem to suggest that the Dyes probably would not have allowed their clients to restrict them in such a manner.  Thank you for your post.

[Tom_Doak]

Wade,

There was a period after the TPC at Sawgrass where Pete had several clients who wanted the same thing ... Even Landmark, for whom he did many courses, wanted PGA West to have its own island green, and of course the Tour wanted all of the stadium golf ideas repeated in La Quinta and Hartford and probably later, too.

However Pete accommodated those requests grudgingly (for the couple I was on hand for, anyway).  The wild card in this is that Perry Dye likes nothing more than to churn out the stereotype of his dad's work ... that is where a lot of the repetition comes from.

[Willie_Dow]

Mac:  Having moved to Vero Beach, FL from the North, I had a strong feeling for Dye courses.  The Moorings has convinced me that Pete and Alice knew what us oldies would appreciate as the days got shorter.

Willie

[George Pazin]

4.  Getting the average person around the golf course is very important.  Alice insisted on making the course enjoyable for the 25-handicap woman, and understood how length and forced carries destroyed them.  Pete looked for every trick he could that would make the course harder for the best players without affecting the average player too much.  [Yes, everything affects the average player, too, and maybe more than the scratch player, but you are trying to reduce the multiplier to the extent possible.  This would correlate with a low-slope course, if the Slope System really worked, which I don't think it does very well.]

Thanks for sharing all of that, Tom. I guess this is the one point I truly don't understand when it comes to Pete and Alice's courses. Most likely it is due to my own preconceived notions of what is ideal on a golf course. I have to think about it some more.