News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Practice ranges and their effect on classic course
« on: March 05, 2002, 03:41:15 AM »
How many classic courses have added practice facitities over the years which have altered their courses oringinal routing? For certain really good courses should this land be considered fair game for restoration? (I know this isn't practical) I bet there are many places where given this land 1-3 holes could be made much better.

Meadow Club 1297 Mackezie-Hunter, their practice area reduces the value of 3 holes, 10, 12, and 18. All are ok-good, all could be good-really good.

Clearly having other land, not as close by could make this a more practical option. Bel Air has no range and Fisher's Islands is what a half mile away.

Maybe in writing this post I've can answer my own question. 1... good fine CC, with no extra land, solid 4.5-5.5 Doak scale, leave the range along the membership needs it. 2 Special property of architectural merit, here is the tough one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

newtoneagle

Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2002, 06:37:42 AM »
A notable example would be The Country Club which turned 1 and 18 into doglegs in order to create a range in between. Would have been nice if Rees had restored the original holes for the 88 Open (as well as restoring something resembling the famous old 17th, but that's another topic).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2002, 06:42:46 AM »
what were the original designs?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

newtoneagle

Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2002, 06:52:03 AM »
I'd like to see the old designs too, but never have. All I know is that they were straight holes across the old race track. I think the only original thing left is the great 18th green complex. Several architecture buffs, Crenshaw among them, expressed disappointment at these not being restored for the Open, but of course it would not have been practical for the members or the USGA, this space allowed for room for the tents.  The old holes were still there in the late 60s, so my geuss is they removed the holes in the early 70s (G. Cornish?).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2002, 07:09:45 AM »
I don't get it. You could still accomodate a range if you straightened out the 1st. If you laid it out where the current range sits (where i presume it used to sit), then you could have a range sit down its right side.

It really wouldn't matter that much since the 10th hole of the clyde/squirrel course is used for the tournament range. In fact, it would make more room for tents between the 1st and 3rd holes, where they situate them anyway.

This all makes no sense to me from a practical point of view.

i'd like to get some documentation of what happened.

ANYBODY?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Lovito

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2002, 07:20:00 AM »
Another example would be Plainfield.  The addition of a practice range about 10 years after the course was built led to the elimination of three original Ross holes.   The holes that were added (the current 13,4,15) are the most criticized holes, as they are out of character with the rest of the course.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2002, 07:28:14 AM »
John - I saw on the Plainfield aerial thread that you are removing the L shaped bunker on 16 and replacing it with mown chipping areas.

Who was responsible for this bunker? Cornish?

i kind of like it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2002, 07:29:22 AM »
It's just fascinating to me how many of the old classic courses were planned and designed either without a practice range or with a very ineffective one by today's standards.

It was a tragic reality on many of the classic courses how they eventually managed to overcome the problem since almost every course today needs some kind of practice range or warm-up area. I guess it was almost a matter of luck in how the problem was overcome well at all, but mostly the clubs had to get into rearranging a hole or a number of holes to accomodate a range.

That often effected the routing negatively and the holes that were created or altered to accomodate ranges. Frankly I can't think of a classic course whose routing or the holes effected were positively effected---almost always negatively.

My own club was certainly negatively effected in both the routing and hole quality by the inclusion of a convenient range in the 1960s into a 1916 Ross design. Plainfield was negatively effected, Pasatiempo seems to have been, and certainly many of the others that the contributors here will think of.

Some that seemed to luck out somehow that had no original ranges are NGLA that had one of the most unusual original practice procedures I've ever heard of but managed a range later without disrupting any of the golf course. Maidstone seemed quite lucky but others like Philly Country, Overbrook, St. David's, Manufacturers  never were able to manage an  effective range.

Actually, the only course I can think of at the moment that may have added a range later by changing a hole (or more) and actually came away with a range and a better hole because of it may be Seminole with their reconfigured and redesigned (Dick Wilson) 18th hole green site!

The course that is the most amusing in this way, in my opinion, is probably Somerset Hills. They obviously never had a range originally planned and still haven't done anything about it. The first half of #10 still seems to be about half the rather ineffective range and it appears to be a little hard to find your tee ball amongst all the practice balls on #10 fairway! I hope they never change it though as I can't imagine how they would do it!

But back to Gulph Mills. I thought there was a way of altering our range and actually restoring our original #10 hole to make it better and also to probably make the other two holes that were effected better too, but the problem now is the membership can't stand the thought of the loss of convenience of our still rather ineffective range (that took the original #10 fairway) that's right next to the clubhouse.

The thought of walking 100yds down the hill to an area that would have solved the problems was just too much for them I guess. We could have restored an original hole, and even enhanced the design of the two other holes that were effected and had a really effective range to boot! But the idea of walking 100yds down a hill and back up to tee off was just too much bother I guess!

Actually, there is another course which may have eventually dodged this bullet in an unusual way. That would be Piping Rock which has an enormous practice range which once was the double polo fields that C.B MacDonald got pissed about not being able to originally use for golf holes. Had C.B managed to prevail originally, where would the range be today and how would that have screwed up his original routing and original holes? C.B lost his original battle with the polo interests but eventually thing probably worked out better for the golf course because he lost that battle originally!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2002, 07:40:56 AM »
John, Plainfield sounds like a good example. Do they have any other land that could have been used for practice facility? Are these the weakest holes? Having not played it, all I have heard is wonderful, one of the better remainging works of DR, maybe #2 in NJ which says alot. Hanse is doing the restoration, wonder if this was on the table, kind of doubt it. Not knowing about the routing and lost holes, how much better could it be with proper restoration of these holes.

Clearly there are many factors which would influence such a bold decision, many of which can't be made in a democracy, thus the benifit of the Czar concept. My understanding is that SFGC considered restoring 13-16, with I believe Doak's blessing as the consulting arche, but the project met with an approx 50-50 split within the membership and thus for many reasons will not be done. (13-16 don't relate to practice facility, but holes were altered in the 50's? because of proposed highway project)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2002, 07:42:57 AM »
Tom -
Apawamis' 1st hole is affected in the same way as Somerset Hills 10th. It does make for an interesting search for your balls. But the range is wholly ineffective.

Was Camargo's range originally part of the course? My sense is that it was a subsequent addition since it is the only part of the club that is across the road.

That is quite a walk down to Gulph Mills range! How was the 10th originally laid out?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2002, 07:48:15 AM »
Tom, 100 yards :( :(  I could see the problem if we were talking about a half mile, or the need for a cart. I suspect the same would happen at many clubs though. Welcome back.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Lovito

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2002, 08:17:27 AM »
Brad,

Not really, the club is built on a fairly compact property.  The only other land available is where they put the additional holes, and they are located the furthest distance from the clubhouse.  They are certainly not the weakest holes with regard to difficulty, but they are clearly out of character as they sit on flat land while the rest of the course is on fairly rolling terrain.  Furthermore, Cornish altered the holes in the 60’s and he removed features, which better integrated the holes with the rest of the course.

The good news is that these holes are part of the restoration plan and the changes will make for a better golf course..  The 15th is currently being restored and will now feature a cross bunker and a wider fairway.  The 13th and 14th, I suspect, will be worked on next winter.

SPDB,

I’m not sure who put in the L shaped bunker, but Cornish is a good guess.  I also liked the bunker.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2002, 08:29:32 AM »
SPDB:

The practice range at GMGC was the original 10th hole. The tee was where the practice tee is now and the fairway was the range. You can see #10 green down at the other end of the range beyond the pond. The first half of the present #10 fairway used to be the last half of the old #12 hole (a par 5 from the same tees as now) whose green was just below the ladies tees on #10 and next to #9 green.

The redesign (for the range and the present #10 and reconfigured and redesigned #12 and #13 holes) was the idea of RTJ in the mid 1960s. His idea apparently took him all of about 15-30 minutes to figure out! Maybe he should have thought things through a bit more but he didn't!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mikep

Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2002, 08:48:04 AM »
Tom Paul,

There is an interesting article in one of the Tillinghast books regarding classic courses and practice ranges. As I recall, according to Tillie, golfers practiced on the course and lessons were given around the clubhouse and the 18th. He indicates that Ridgewood was the first time he planned and built a range and a short game practice area at the same time as he built the course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2002, 09:40:04 AM »
I played the TCC many times in the late 60's.  When I played TCC again in 2000, I didn't recognize 1 and 18.  I thought my memory was playing tricks on me and chalked it up to the aging process.

Now it makes sense.  They are different holes.  Thanks, you've made my day. :)

Bob

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

schoeller

Re: Practice ranges and their effect on classic co
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2002, 02:15:29 PM »
Manufacturers in Ft. Washington, PA just spent a lot of money and knocked down literally dozens, if not hundreds, of trees on a hillside to make a modern range.  Funny how something that simply was not important in the 1920s when Flynn and Toomey worked that site has taken on such significance to today's country club golfer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »