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Wade Schueneman

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Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« on: August 25, 2010, 09:08:11 AM »
I have become increasingly aware of the role that the right equipment plays in enjoying good golf architecture.  I am tending to think that pro v1s are too long and straight for my taste and so have recently purchased a bunch of old balata balls.  I have also bought some 1955 Macgregor persimmon woods, and some Miura and Mizuno blades (replacing my original ping eye cavity backs).  My hope is that this combination of balls and clubs will require me to be a more thoughtful and creative golfer.  I know that I will not score as well, but that is not really the point for me.  I like shaping (or trying to shape) shots.  I like hitting half shots (so I only carry 6-7 clubs).  I like having to guesstimate yardages.  I like having to hit loong irons.  I playing a ground game.  i lke having to manufacture loft when the circumstances require it.

So, my question is what kind of equipment would you slect to maximize the FUN factor in golf.  I recently played some hickory golf with Mac Plumart and that was very fun, because it emphasizes angles, brings interesting topography into play, and requires a player to manufacture loft in order to stop the ball.  However, I found it unfortunate that shots could not be shaped (due to the lack of grooves on the clubs).  I like to spin the ball some around the greens, as I feel it makes for interesting recovery options.

So, again, I am interested to know what your ideal equipment combinations are (kind of ball, kind of woods and irons, number of clubs, kind of putter, etc.).  I am hoping for some goods ideas. 

Mark McKeever

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2010, 09:18:02 AM »
Bravo Wade!

Seeing some people migrate to this approach makes me tempted to do something similar.  It really is a cool concept that brings back parts of the game that have long since died off.

Mar
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Chris Buie

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2010, 09:43:06 AM »
Before the advent of metals the Holy Grail was the Tommy Armour 945 driver - made in the 50's.  That is what Nicklaus used for most of his career.  If you want to get the ultra persimmon experience that would be the club.  There are some other very fine MacGregor woods as well.  I grew up playing a perfectly crafted set of MT's which people tried to buy from me several times.  I never sold them.

JMEvensky

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2010, 09:58:34 AM »
Before the advent of metals the Holy Grail was the Tommy Armour 945 driver - made in the 50's.  That is what Nicklaus used for most of his career.  If you want to get the ultra persimmon experience that would be the club.  There are some other very fine MacGregor woods as well.  I grew up playing a perfectly crafted set of MT's which people tried to buy from me several times.  I never sold them.


That same driver is sitting 10 feet from me as I type this.

Wade Schueneman

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 10:15:46 AM »

I am generally a high ball hitter (or used to think so), but I went out and played with a tour balata and an M55 4 wood and found that I was hitting the ball very low (although it still felt really good).  I do not generate a lot a clubhead speed.  Do you think trying to find a 945 3 wood would be the way to go as opoposed to the driver?

Chris Buie

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 10:31:58 AM »
Wade, MacGregor made a lot of 2 woods back in their prime era.  That may be your best bet.  I actually just gave a very nice old MacGregor MT 2 wood to a pro I know.  If I hadn't I would have happily given it to you since your are genuine in your interest and I haven't used it much for a long time.  If I run across another one I'll let you know.  There are probably some floating around on ebay from time to time.  Without a doubt, an old MacGregor 2 or 3 wood (preferably 945) would definitely be a club for you to have.  It is best if you can see it before you buy it since they all seem to be (charmingly) a little bit different from each other.  When you find one that particularly fits your eye it is a very nice feeling.
MacGregor gave Byron Nelson two drivers one day back in his prime.  He liked one of them and asked Hogan if he would like to try the other.  It ended up being Hogans main club for many years.  Nelson wouldn't let him pay for it and insisted he keep it as a gift.
Mr. JMEvensky, what can you tell us about your driver?

JMEvensky

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2010, 10:40:19 AM »
Chris,there's nothing special about it other than I played it.It was refinished 20 years ago and sits in a bag in my office with about 15 other persimmon drivers.

George Freeman

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2010, 10:45:49 AM »
I am tending to think that pro v1s are too long and straight for my taste...

I stopped reading as soon as I got to this statement...Sorry Wade, I'm not at a point where I am trying to make the game any harder for myself.  Not to say that I don't think playing with hickories and old equipment wouldn't be fun (I've never done it).

I need all the help I can get!  "Too long and too straight"...I'm still chuckling.
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

David_Tepper

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 11:33:47 AM »
If anyone else wants to make the game a little harder than it needs to be, I have a set of Wilson Staff forged blades (circa 1995 or so) I would be happy to part with for roughly 1/10 the cost of a round a Pebble Beach. Send me an IM/PM for more info.

Tom Dunne

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 12:27:31 PM »
Neat thread. I have a question for the group. I don't have much vintage stuff, but I do have an absolutely cherry Wilson 8802. It's a beautiful putter, but I've never played a round with it because the shaft is 36" long. (My understanding is that Bob Mandrella made it custom for a particularly tall business associate.) Is there a way to cut down the shaft without ruining the original leather grip?

And yeah, I guess I could just choke down....

Garland Bayley

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2010, 12:38:45 PM »
Neat thread. I have a question for the group. I don't have much vintage stuff, but I do have an absolutely cherry Wilson 8802. It's a beautiful putter, but I've never played a round with it because the shaft is 36" long. (My understanding is that Bob Mandrella made it custom for a particularly tall business associate.) Is there a way to cut down the shaft without ruining the original leather grip?

And yeah, I guess I could just choke down....

Shafts are usually epoxied into the head. Heat the hosel, pull the shaft, trim off unwanted, expoxy together.

Alternative, leave in car in direct sunlight, car will heat up, after a long wait get putter out and see if you can pull the head off. If so, you are half way there. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

PCCraig

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 12:55:34 PM »
Neat thread. I have a question for the group. I don't have much vintage stuff, but I do have an absolutely cherry Wilson 8802. It's a beautiful putter, but I've never played a round with it because the shaft is 36" long. (My understanding is that Bob Mandrella made it custom for a particularly tall business associate.) Is there a way to cut down the shaft without ruining the original leather grip?

And yeah, I guess I could just choke down....

I'm sure a quality clubfitter could save the grip for you.

I borrowed a friend's 8802 last winter and after screwing around with it on the carpeting I cut the grip off and shortened the shaft...only to figure out later that it is an original 1964 version of the 8802 and is worth tons of $$$ as long as the shaft and grip are left intact.

I love the putter though and have been using it as my "gamer" all year long, even kicking out my old standby Scotty Newport Oil Can.

Come to think of it, I have retrofitted my bag quite a bit this year. I bought a pristine set of Mizuno MP-14's which I think are the greatest irons ever made and put them right into the bag and I now can't imagine ever taking them out. I also replaced a new state-of-the-art 3-wood with my old Titleist PT15, and now I'm not sure why I ever took it out of the bag in the first place (looking for extra distance I think).

Other than my Titliest 905R (which is about 5 years old) and my Titliest hybrid...most of what's in my bag wouldn't look out of place in the mid-80's.

I think someone would have to be nuts to go out and play an old balata ball for more than one round...I love the ProV and golf courses are WAY too hard without them now with all the extra yardage being put on new courses these days. :) Plus...the ProV's last longer! Those old balata's would last about 9 holes tops before they looked terrible.
H.P.S.

Mike Benham

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2010, 01:03:23 PM »

Remind me to NEVER loan Pat any golf clubs ...



I borrowed a friend's 8802 last winter and after screwing around with it on the carpeting I cut the grip off and shortened the shaft...only to figure out later that it is an original 1964 version of the 8802 and is worth tons of $$$ as long as the shaft and grip are left intact.

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Will MacEwen

Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2010, 01:07:01 PM »
Neat thread. I have a question for the group. I don't have much vintage stuff, but I do have an absolutely cherry Wilson 8802. It's a beautiful putter, but I've never played a round with it because the shaft is 36" long. (My understanding is that Bob Mandrella made it custom for a particularly tall business associate.) Is there a way to cut down the shaft without ruining the original leather grip?

And yeah, I guess I could just choke down....

Shafts are usually epoxied into the head. Heat the hosel, pull the shaft, trim off unwanted, expoxy together.

Alternative, leave in car in direct sunlight, car will heat up, after a long wait get putter out and see if you can pull the head off. If so, you are half way there. ;)


8802s have a fluted shaft, so you must shorten from the butt end.  A clubmaker should be able to remove the grip with some solvent and a compressor.

PCCraig

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2010, 01:18:43 PM »

Remind me to NEVER loan Pat any golf clubs ...



I borrowed a friend's 8802 last winter and after screwing around with it on the carpeting I cut the grip off and shortened the shaft...only to figure out later that it is an original 1964 version of the 8802 and is worth tons of $$$ as long as the shaft and grip are left intact.


It was sitting in his garage collecting dust! I gave that putter a new life!!! :)

Believe me my friends have "borrowed" clubs from me in the past and have done far worse things.
H.P.S.

Chris Buie

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2010, 01:24:11 PM »
Oh boy.  Chopping up a 1964 is slightly like painting a little mustache on the Mona Lisa.  But it is one's prerogative.  I'd recommend getting a newer, not so valuable and rare one and doing whatever you want to it.
I had a mint condition 1964 8802 The Wilson for years.  After not playing with it for about 10 years I sold it to a fellow that really wanted it.  It wasn't until after I sold it to him that I told him that two US Open champions had putted with it.  In fact, David Graham tried to buy it from me for Ben Crenshaw in the early 80's.  
 

Wade Schueneman

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2010, 01:48:26 PM »
Please allow me to clarify "too long and too straight."  At the courses I normally play (from the regular tees) the longer par 4s are only about 410 yards.  Playing a modern driver and pro v1 would leave maybe a 7 iron into those greens.  I think it is more fun to have a 2 iron or fairway wood into those greens (just my preference).  Also, I like to try to work the ball, but I have a hard time bending the pro v1 off of my long irons.  Please do not get me wrong.  I love short par 4s, and I love getting to try to throw darts at the pins with my 9 iron on a few holes, but I also like to have a few holes where I have to shape a low running shot off of a long iron to get close to the hole. 

I completely understand that to anyone playing a long difficult course all of this might seem stupid.

Pat,

There is no doubt that the tour balata's do not last very long (and the ones I am using have certainly lost some compression).  AND they are not inexpensive.  I think that as a concession, I might (when playing just for fun) take a Nike One Platinum off of the tee and switch to the balata on my approach shots.  Are the old Tour Edition balls more durable?  I know they sure will spin a great deal.


Carl Rogers

Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2010, 02:37:38 PM »
I still have my first set of irons, 1971 model Wilson X-31's (thick flanges, very thin top line, +1.5" over standard length ( I am 6'-5")).   
They are very heavy clubs.  Do not know where the [real] woods are.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2010, 02:48:05 PM »
My collection of old clubs is rather extensive..
I have evry set of Hogan clubs made up and including the mid eighties remake of the Apex blade, including a set of the original"Precision" set.
I have roughly 30 persimmon drivers ranging from the fabled M85..To Macgregors keyholes and Byron Nelson drivers...the Hogan jubilee Driver..
Iron wise I also have the old Wilson fg17's...a set of early seventies dynapowers nad bullet backs...
I just that old stuff.
But my favourite irons ever...The Sounder SB IV'S...AWESOME

PCCraig

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2010, 02:53:19 PM »
Oh boy.  Chopping up a 1964 is slightly like painting a little mustache on the Mona Lisa.  But it is one's prerogative.  I'd recommend getting a newer, not so valuable and rare one and doing whatever you want to it.
I had a mint condition 1964 8802 The Wilson for years.  After not playing with it for about 10 years I sold it to a fellow that really wanted it.  It wasn't until after I sold it to him that I told him that two US Open champions had putted with it.  In fact, David Graham tried to buy it from me for Ben Crenshaw in the early 80's.  
 

Chris:

Believe me...the putter has become a mainstay in the bag, I love it. It has a feel unlike any putter I've ever used (I don't mean to be dramatic about it but it's true). My biggest issue with putters is that with my long arms it's almost impossible to putt with anything longer than 33" so the cut is needed for me to be able to use it.

As great as the putter is, if your stroke is out of practice those 4 footers can be near impossible with such a small sweet spot!
H.P.S.

Tom Dunne

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2010, 03:17:06 PM »
Oh boy.  Chopping up a 1964 is slightly like painting a little mustache on the Mona Lisa.  But it is one's prerogative.  I'd recommend getting a newer, not so valuable and rare one and doing whatever you want to it.
I had a mint condition 1964 8802 The Wilson for years.  After not playing with it for about 10 years I sold it to a fellow that really wanted it.  It wasn't until after I sold it to him that I told him that two US Open champions had putted with it.  In fact, David Graham tried to buy it from me for Ben Crenshaw in the early 80's.  
 

Chris:

Believe me...the putter has become a mainstay in the bag, I love it. It has a feel unlike any putter I've ever used (I don't mean to be dramatic about it but it's true). My biggest issue with putters is that with my long arms it's almost impossible to putt with anything longer than 33" so the cut is needed for me to be able to use it.

As great as the putter is, if your stroke is out of practice those 4 footers can be near impossible with such a small sweet spot!

I play a 33" too, though I could conceivably go up to 34". I like Chris Buie's idea, though. There are some decent looking used lefty 8802s on eBay. I can't stomach the idea of losing the original, mint-condition grip on the one I have just to butt trim.  

Oh, and thanks all for the advice.

JMEvensky

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2010, 03:23:50 PM »
Yes makes a very good 8802 copy.I think they make a lefty version.

Chris Buie

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2010, 03:41:33 PM »
OK Pat, since it is working so well for you I'll give you a pass on your modifications.  I actually saw a pro at a well known club (who shall remain nameless) "modifying" his 8802 on a cart path after 3-putting once. 
BTW, I've been using an older Ping putter for some time now that has a small sweet spot.  If I miss the sweet spot my longer putts come up about 5-6 feet short.  I use 1993 Tommy Armour 845's irons that operate on a similar principle.  If I don't hit the sweet spot the shot will come up short - or bend a considerable amount.  A friend has a set of Mizuno irons I hit occasionally which has a large sweet spot.  If I hit those slightly off center the iron compensates and those shots do not come up short - or bend as much. 
I haven't made up my mind which way to go regarding the equipment choices.  It feels a little like cheating with those new Mizuno irons.  I'm considering having an old school bag and and new school one.  One for when I'm just out playing around for pure fun and one for when I'm playing with really good players and don't really want to get left behind too much.
I definitely would like to acquire one of those 945 drivers I was babbling about earlier though.  I've had all the clubs I really wanted through the years but never one of those.  I'll get around to that one day.

Wade Schueneman

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2010, 05:01:13 PM »
But my favourite irons ever...The Sounder SB IV'S...AWESOME

Michael

I have never even heard of those.  What is it that you like so much about them?  So far I was thinking that the Miura baby blades and Mizuno TN-87s would be my go to clubs, but I am very happy to explore other options. 

C. Squier

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Re: Connoisseur's Guide to Golf Equipment
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2010, 05:26:58 PM »
Neat thread. I have a question for the group. I don't have much vintage stuff, but I do have an absolutely cherry Wilson 8802. It's a beautiful putter, but I've never played a round with it because the shaft is 36" long. (My understanding is that Bob Mandrella made it custom for a particularly tall business associate.) Is there a way to cut down the shaft without ruining the original leather grip?

And yeah, I guess I could just choke down....

Shafts are usually epoxied into the head. Heat the hosel, pull the shaft, trim off unwanted, expoxy together.

Alternative, leave in car in direct sunlight, car will heat up, after a long wait get putter out and see if you can pull the head off. If so, you are half way there. ;)


8802s have a fluted shaft, so you must shorten from the butt end.  A clubmaker should be able to remove the grip with some solvent and a compressor.


I'd run away from a guy taking an air compressor to an old leather grip like that.  I'd only attempt it with a syringe/solvent and heat gun on it's lowest setting....with more patience than I currently have.