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Patrick_Mucci

Are we missing the boat ?
« on: August 24, 2010, 10:11:16 PM »
What makes playing a golf course attractive to us ?

It's certainly NOT the extreme difficulty of a golf course.
In other words, it's not incrementally increasing the difficulty of the course until the course's difficulty transcends our abilities, recognizing that we're playing from the right tees.

So what is it ?

The fun of the challenge ?

The variety in the challenge ?

Both ?

More ?

Is there but one style, or just a few, select styles that present the attraction ?

TEPaul has often advanced his "big world" theory, yet many are critical of certain architects like Fazio and Jones.

For over a decade I've watched as their styles have come under attack.

But, haven't they crafted golf courses that attract those wishing to engage in a fun challenge, one inclusive of variety ?

Have we reached a point where we expect perfection in everyone but ourselves ?

Where courses that don't suit our styles or tastes are dismissed, rather than embraced under the "Big World" theory ?

Have we sold out to "window dressing", the form, rather than the substance, "the enjoyable challenge" ?

I recently played Atlantic and commented that the course continues to get better.
It continues to present a challenge that's fun to meet, a challenge filled with variety.
Yet, some who have never played the course, and others who haven't played it in nearly a decade were critical.
WHY ?

Is it possible that a course that doesn't fit your particular style can appeal to others ?
That others enjoy the challenge presented ?

Fazio, Nicklaus and Jones have crafted many courses where memberships are full.
Are those members "out of touch" ?
Do they not enjoy the challenge presented ?

Have we reached the point where destructive criticism rather than honest commentary is the path more traveled ?

Said another way, do we attempt to force our preferences onto others ?

If we were conducting this forum in the 1920's and 1930's, which architects would feel GCA.com's wrath ?

Mike Cirba

Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 10:20:31 PM »
Patrick,

No.

JC Jones

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2010, 10:22:30 PM »
I agree that we need to be more embracing of the big world theory.  

Perhaps Ross, of all the golden age guys would have felt the wrath of gca.com as he designed courses from his home on Topos and visited very few of them.  Or maybe the good Dr. himself as he would show up on site for a few days, give a routing idea and then leave it for an associate to build and design.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mike Cirba

Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2010, 10:27:27 PM »
Patrick,

All of the men you brought up have created good to great courses.

It's just that their batting averages and slugging percentages would make the Kansas City Royals feel good.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 10:31:04 PM by MCirba »

Phil McDade

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2010, 10:29:51 PM »

If we were conducting this forum in the 1920's and 1930's, which architects would feel GCA.com's wrath ?

William Langford, for starters.

Bendelow, probably, for the Nicklaus/Fazio-like portfolio (meaning, quantity and time spent on site).

Greg Tallman

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2010, 10:39:55 PM »
Have we reached the point where destructive criticism rather than honest commentary is the path more traveled ?

Said another way, do we attempt to force our preferences onto others ?

Certainly has that feel at times.

John Moore II

Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2010, 11:02:53 PM »
What makes playing a golf course attractive to us ?

Have we reached the point where destructive criticism rather than honest commentary is the path more traveled ?

Said another way, do we attempt to force our preferences onto others ?

If we were conducting this forum in the 1920's and 1930's, which architects would feel GCA.com's wrath ?

OK, I am going to edit this down to just those questions.

What makes a golf course attractive to me is a good challenge, a fairly difficult challenge. But that does not need always be the case. It needs to interesting, with holes that cause strategic thought. The course conditions generally don't matter to me, I can play courses that are soft and slow just the same as a course that is firm and fast. And it certainly doesn't have to be one specific style.

Yes, I think we have moved more towards destructive criticism rather than commentary. I think some people are too ready to attempt to force their views of what makes a course good, always firm, scraggly trimmings, etc. Or the opposite if that is a persons opinion. I feel like any course can be good, no matter the designer, if routed properly across the land and such.

I haven't played enough 20's and 30's courses to comment fully on the other question, however, in a conversation with Bill McBride he mentioned that many on here praise people like Raynor for using geometric features that are certainly machine constructed, yet modern guys that do similar stuff get torched on here. Perhaps that is one example, especially given some of the comments directed towards The Old White, such as comments about the Dragon's Teeth features or whatever they are called (assuming those are all original to MacDonald and Raynor)

A couple of thoughts, I think all modern architects are capable of designing top notch golf courses if given the best sites. Not to take anything away from Mr. Doak, but had Mr. Fazio been given the same site at Pacific Dunes (lets not get into the processes of Bandon Resort and who they choose to design courses, just talk about the site itself) I feel like he would have designed a superb course. Perhaps not the #1 Modern course in the World, but a very, very high quality, great course. Has Mr. Fazio ever had the chance to work on a site like Pacific or Ballyneal or Rock Creek? The second two I have no idea about (World Woods maybe?) but I can't think of any Fazio course situated on ocean front property.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2010, 11:27:07 PM »
Patrick - if we could all manage to walk that knife edge - content in and satisfied with our own subjective experience of fun and challenge and beauty while at the same time remaining open to genuine discussion on and discoveries about the objective elements of quality architecture -- gca.com would be a much more interesting and richer place.   And if we could all keep our eyes on the great and seek it out whenever possible but at the same time avoid the tendency to denigrate the merely good and to mock the merely average, our golfing lives would be fuller and deeper.  But how many among us can and do walk such a straight and narrow paths? In other words, if we've missed the boat it's our own damn fault. There's no one here but us chickens.

Peter

Pat Burke

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2010, 11:52:38 PM »


A couple of thoughts, I think all modern architects are capable of designing top notch golf courses if given the best sites. Not to take anything away from Mr. Doak, but had Mr. Fazio been given the same site at Pacific Dunes (lets not get into the processes of Bandon Resort and who they choose to design courses, just talk about the site itself) I feel like he would have designed a superb course. Perhaps not the #1 Modern course in the World, but a very, very high quality, great course. Has Mr. Fazio ever had the chance to work on a site like Pacific or Ballyneal or Rock Creek? The second two I have no idea about (World Woods maybe?) but I can't think of any Fazio course situated on ocean front property.
[/quote]

Mr Fazio had a little ocean front, and a lot of ocean view at Pelican Hill.   36 holes, a few good holes, but mostly a repetitive exercise.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 02:32:28 AM »

Pat

Not only missed the boat but we are watching it split in two before it dives under the water like the Titanic

Of course the Captain of the SS Golf abandon her years ago for far more lucrative enterprises (fat TV contracts rights) leaving the old girl to fend for herself. During this time she has been assaulted by the Non Walking Brigade, spied upon by the distance fanatics and to add insult to injury no one wants to take control or wants to utilising technology thus minimise operational costs. We are watching the good ship ‘Golf’ rising out of the water onto the iceberg due to the distraction of those who feel that speed and distance is what it’s all about, yet they will  probably be the ones that finally see her wrecked.

Maybe in 90 years someone will remember and go searching for her, although all her magnificent designs, will by then have been corroded away leaving just undulations where once a great game flourished and took pride of place.

Have we missed the boat, yes but then her sea cocks have also been opened from within showing that in house help has been utilised to speed up her demise.

Yet all could have been easily avoided if some cared enough to show some commitment.

The final scene being of Gutta Percha balls floating in the water as all the modern clubs and balls sink to the ocean depths never to be seen again.

Have we missed the boat, yes, and with our apathy we are certainly not helping to save her either. Have a nice swim as the lifeboats have been sold for carts, proving a point that in a crisis carts are of very little use

Melvyn


Sean_A

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2010, 05:17:06 AM »
I don't know about not embracing the Big World Theory.  I see all archies slammed and praised on this site.  There may be valid reasons why some archies are more venerated than others.  However, I definitely think the run of the mill good course gets a bit of a beating on here.  This probably shouldn't be surprising because this sort of course is a dime a dozen and nominally at least, this board is about architecture.  Naturally the cream of architecture will rise to the top of discussions even if many here have heard it all before.  It also shouldn't be surprising that many will dismiss (perhaps too harsh a word) styles that don't suit their tastes.  For most, there is only so much time and money for golf so discriminating between styles is to be expected.  For sure, this dicriminating approach is far from perfect, but it is practical. 

As for "forced opinions", I am sure many people skip my posts because they already know where I am coming from in terms of tastes in architecture and beliefs on how the game should be played etc etc.  But I doubt many people get worked up over this stuff - so know, I don't think the criticism is destructive unless people choose to make it so.  I am sure folks treat it all as opinions and nothing more.  After a while one learns to gravitate toward the guys who tick the most boxes and try learn what one can. 

I don't really know who would get the hammer if we dropped this thread back 85 years, but my guess is Ross.  He fits the "good but relatively little special" mould quite well.  What is less understood about Ross is that with that many courses on his CV, he has done very well to not have the tag of "average and very little good". 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Scott Warren

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 05:37:31 AM »
Am I missing something about this much-acclaimed Big World Theory, or is it basically just a combination of "variety is the spice of life" and "different strokes for different folks"?

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2010, 05:44:38 AM »
The internet has provided us all with a wonderful outlet where we can express our views easily and with little possibility of litigation. Those of us that didn't become journalists or authors can simply write a blog. People nowadays feel that their opinion is important and it must be heard.

The ratings game encourages criticism. If that tickles you fancy, well by all means, continue rating courses, but in my opinion it's a zero sum game. It's not enough to say that a course is good for reasons X, Y and Z. We must rate it. Is it a top 10, or top 50. How would you split 10 rounds between course X and Y? Is it 34th or 35th? How can X be 3 spots higher than Y?

Maybe people feel that in order to show that you know something about golf architecture, you need to point out what's wrong with a golf course and not what's right with it. Is the first instinct to point out what's wrong? If yes, why?

If you consistently hear negative comments about Fazio, Hills, Jones, etc. it can be difficult preventing it from clouding your judgement when you do actually play one of their courses. If everybody is criticising Fazio et al. it can be also be difficult to go against the popular opinion. In recent days, I've read some positive comments about both Nicklaus and Hills, so there are those on the DG with different opinions and those opinions are being heard. This is what makes the DG such a wonderful forum.

I also believe that it's almost impossible to form an accurate opinion of a course by playing it once. You should certainly give your opinion, but you should also realise that it may not be 100% accurate, when based on just one play of the course. There are an infinite no of positions from where you can play a shot from on a course. It propably takes 20-30 rounds on some of he more interesting courses before you become fully aware of all the nuances of the course. If you happen to get stuck in the rough on the right side of a par 5 for the whole length of the hole, how can you appreciate how the hole plays from the left side of the fairway?

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2010, 05:44:55 AM »
Here's my take:

The Golden age architects had it easy - They had great sites, few planning restrictions and no need to conform to big business and the modern day idea of what a golf course should look like... They had a blank canvas... But they had to generate the ideas... and the artistry of the best of them shows through - They were the pioneers.

The best modern day architects have a fully formed idea of what makes a course playable and fun (not all do) whilst taking their creativity to the furthest level of detail to make sure everything is as they want it.

I think this site takes it too far when it criticises architects (as opposed to the final course which is fair game) when they often have one hand tied behind their back because of site restrictions, topography, soil and Client brief.... In other words, when we have none of the facts... I also think we criticise aesthetics too readily.

Sean_A

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2010, 05:56:44 AM »
I think this site takes it too far when it criticises architects (as opposed to the final course which is fair game) when they often have one hand tied behind their back because of site restrictions, topography, soil and Client brief.... In other words, when we have none of the facts... I also think we criticise aesthetics too readily.

Ally

I couldn't agree with you more.  Folks who don't know the brief shouldn't be terribly critical of a design - especially redos/renos/restos.  I can understand not caring for work, but to hammer the archie without inside info is very harsh.  However, that sort of attitude essentially leaves an open season on the ODGs becasue it is usually assumed (as you point out) that these guys generally didn't have a hand tied behind their back.  This is probably an unfair assumption given that many had miniscule budgets compared to today's courses and likely found it much harder to cope with issues such as drainage on less than ideal sites.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Scott Warren

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2010, 06:10:57 AM »
Quote
I think this site takes it too far when it criticises architects (as opposed to the final course which is fair game) when they often have one hand tied behind their back because of site restrictions, topography, soil and Client brief.... In other words, when we have none of the facts...

I don't agree entirely.

An architect has to make both an artistic decision and a business decision when he takes on a job. If he is not satisfied that the conditions of the project allow him to build something he is happy to attach his name to, he has the option to decline the job. People in most fields of endeavour are judged by their results.

I know you differentiate between "the course" and "the architect" but to me an architect is what he puts on the ground. If I criticise one I can't see how I am not criticising both.

Sean_A

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2010, 06:31:56 AM »
Quote
I think this site takes it too far when it criticises architects (as opposed to the final course which is fair game) when they often have one hand tied behind their back because of site restrictions, topography, soil and Client brief.... In other words, when we have none of the facts...

I don't agree entirely.

An architect has to make both an artistic decision and a business decision when he takes on a job. If he is not satisfied that the conditions of the project allow him to build something he is happy to attach his name to, he has the option to decline the job. People in most fields of endeavour are judged by their results.

I know you differentiate between "the course" and "the architect" but to me an architect is what he puts on the ground. If I criticise one I can't see how I am not criticising both.

Scott

On one level you are correct.  If one is going to accept accolades he must take the boos for an archie's hand is tied behind his back on all projects.  However, on another level, you may be a bit harsh.  Presumably, no matter who took the job, he has the same constraints and thus you could be complaining about something that would exist regardless of the architect.  I am especially thinking of changes to courses due to certain reasons such as safety for example.  Sure, folks may prefer how certain archies may carry out that work, but the truth of the matter is the course is still being alltered and perhaps for very good reasons.  Another case in point is Hoylake's Royal hole.  This was recently changed to the outrage of many, but the club felt it needed to gain access behind the green for spectators as a condition of hosting another Open.  It is down to the club to make the determination if hosting an Open is worth altering the course.  So in this case, the archie was slammed (and I don't believe the slammers judged the work on its merits - they judged the work as altering a famous hole) think , but any archie had the same brief or they wouldn't have been there in the first place.  This is why I say it is important to know the brief before hammering an archie.  That said, as I stated earlier, I can understand if one doesn't care for an archie's style, but that isn't really a quality issue, just an opinion.  At the end of the day, for those who pay attention to architects, they will vote with their feet regardless of what they may or may not know because the archie's name is what stands out above all else in architecture.  So in practical terms, you are right that if you criticise the work, you are essentially criticising the archie - even if it isn't entirely reasonable.


Ciao
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 06:33:31 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2010, 06:38:19 AM »
Quote
I think this site takes it too far when it criticises architects (as opposed to the final course which is fair game) when they often have one hand tied behind their back because of site restrictions, topography, soil and Client brief.... In other words, when we have none of the facts...

I don't agree entirely.

An architect has to make both an artistic decision and a business decision when he takes on a job. If he is not satisfied that the conditions of the project allow him to build something he is happy to attach his name to, he has the option to decline the job. People in most fields of endeavour are judged by their results.

I know you differentiate between "the course" and "the architect" but to me an architect is what he puts on the ground. If I criticise one I can't see how I am not criticising both.

Scott - Most fields of endeavour start with a slighty more level playing field than golf course design. Very, very few architects are in a position to pick and choose both their sites and their clients.

I am quite happy to see criticism of architects for copy & pate identikit designs that show little bravery and thought. But even then it is worth remembering what the brief of the client is.

I don't fully differentiate between "architect" and "course" but I think you will find most golfers do: They would much prefer an average design on a spectacular site than a superior design on a poor one.

I do agree that if it gets to the stage that the architect isn't happy to have his name associated with some of those decisions, then he has to question his overall involvement.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2010, 07:16:33 AM »

Ally

Not wanting to argue with you  but I feel I must make a point regards your first paragraph re your reply #13 (had to be 13), you said

The Golden age architects had it easy - They had great sites, few planning restrictions and no need to conform to big business and the modern day idea of what a golf course should look like... They had a blank canvas... But they had to generate the ideas... and the artistry of the best of them shows through - They were the pioneers.

I agree with the great sites, planning, big business, modern ideas, blank canvas, but I must question the generation of ideas and pioneers. My reason being that they utilised may of the earlier ideas, perhaps reshaped them but they used the already established concepts which in my book does not make them pioneers. All the fundamental work had been done before the turn of the 20th Century. Standardisation of the size of a course (in holes 9 or 18), designing a course to work with the clubs and ball of the day, the forming of separate Tees, a sizable list of tried hazards, quality and development of the Greens, yet on the whole all this was done on a shoestring pre 1900. I accept some great courses were designed and constructed but from previous ideas. The great advantage was the explosion of golf worldwide in the early 20th Century, which attracted money thus making many inland sites available, remembering that many Links courses in the 19th Century were for the most part unused section of land use mainly for sheep until rented for a golf course. Usually the landowner or farmer was involved in the club so leased the property at affordable rates to the clubs.

As for pioneers, no they just took over the baton from the real pioneers, who set the standards in the 19th Century.

As for criticising designers, I feel that’s unfair as we have not been part and parcel of the design brief. We do not know the clients brief, budget or intentions. Using the old saying ‘one man’s meat is another’s poison, hence my dislike for ranking or rating courses. Nevertheless, I feel we have every right to show our concerns if we see pointless decorative features or faking for the sake of aging the site. They are costly add-on that do nothing for the enjoyment of the game itself.     

I sometimes wonder if the designers actually learning from new or old ideas, are they spending time understanding, and not just criticising some designs because they feel the modern golfer wants this feeling of mass produced uniform on Tees and Greens, also set to a specific colour of Green. Hence my comment about Askernish and are our designers interested in learning what they have done or are they just going out there to suggest modification that they consider golfers will accept. A designer may have a wealth of information and knowledge on his/her subject but they never stopped learning (well the good one that is).

Melvyn



Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2010, 07:35:26 AM »
 8) I am reminded of our trip to the UK in 1996, riding the train from Edinburgh to York, a family with two small children playing a game with the rejoinder, "Tickets Please" and later when the Train Master/Conductor came by, repeatedly uttering those words as he approached, they were delighted to spring up and present their tickets to be punched..

This type of "eye candy" is held up as a model, for indoctrination? or frank commentary? or something has to be a standard?


TICKETS PLEASE
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Steve Kline

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2010, 08:13:58 AM »
What makes playing a golf course attractive to me?

I think there are two main elements. First, I want to play a course that puts me in touch with nature. The course should seem natural for its setting. It should be designed so that I can feel and battle of the environments of that particular setting. I don't enjoy a pristine or sanitized design as much as one that is natural (a course that blends into its surroundings). This means it would also be free of housing, etc. I want to be able to WALK through this natural setting. If the course really succeeds at this I get the feeling that I could play it by myself forever - although I prefer the camraderie of others.

Second, I want a course that challenges me to figure it out. It should take me multiple plays to understand the preferred shots, angles, bounces, etc. for different tees and hole locations. Sure, I want to be challenged as to difficulty, but it is more important that I be challenged strategically. I want the opportunity for recovery and weighing the risks/rewards of that recovery. Can I pull the daring shot off? Am I playing well enough to do it or is today the day to take my medicine and pitch out or be more conservative. I want options around the green. Do I try to pitch high over that knob, run it up or putt over it.

A course that does this well stirs something inside of my spirit and has me longing to go back to the first tee immediately.

Two courses of totally different styles that did this for me this year are Camargo and Ballyneal. Pinehurst #2 does this for me (although the terrible course conditions have made it a little harder cherish lately). If compare to Pinehurst #2 to Pinehurst #4, 5, 6, 7, or  8, then the difference becomes more clear. The land for these courses is pretty similar (although the constraints of the architects may or may not have been different). I play the other courses quite a bit and enjoy them at a certain level. Nothing against those other architects, but there is nothing that stirs inside of me like when I play #2. The other courses don’t stand out, don’t seem as natural, are cluttered with houses, etc. I think the difference will be even more apparent once the renovation on #2 is complete.

Brent Hutto

Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2010, 09:29:48 AM »
I think of it as going down a wrong path rather than "missing the boat" but your point is valid in any case.

It's a worthy endeavor to start by evaluating what works and doesn't work on a particular hole or an entire course. Where we go wrong is extending our evaluation on a generalized basis into conclusions about entire bodies of work by certain architects. A related over-extension is the whole idea of ranking and ratings, neither of which is supportable in my view as anything other than cheerleading and ego gratification (although they also seem to have significant business implications).

A summary judgment of one golf course should be just that. A reckoning of how the individual shots and holes and elements of the course add up into a total experience. It does not follow that such a summary must then continue into "where does it stand versus other courses". I think much more in terms of absolute values rather than relative rankings.

After all, if I'm going to play one round of golf at Chambers Bay and receive commentary that indicates it is overall a strong bunch of holes in a nice setting with some downsides involving the walk, the difficulty and so forth that tells me pretty much what I want to know. How does it change my experience at Chambers Bay on that day if I know there's not another course within 1,000 miles that is better versus knowing that there are several superior courses I could have played instead? Its absolute value as a golf course is not subject to constraint by the availability or not of equal or better courses elsewhere, is it?

So a lot the tendencies being decried in this thread arise from the unending lockstop march toward ranking every course into its proper place in some hierarchy. Pretty soon it is an unavoidable human tendency to start clumping courses together and giving de facto bonus points or demerits based on perceptions of an architect's (or owner's!) reputation. Once you make it into a competition and introduce all that ego and rah-rah into the equation the ability to keep our eyes on the goal of fairly evaluating and learning to understand what makes a hole or a course or a particular shot enjoyable and challenging is impeded.

Mike_Young

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2010, 10:10:32 AM »
What makes playing a golf course attractive to us ?


Have we reached the point where destructive criticism rather than honest commentary is the path more traveled ?

Said another way, do we attempt to force our preferences onto others ?

If we were conducting this forum in the 1920's and 1930's, which architects would feel GCA.com's wrath ?

Pat,

YES, this site does try to force it's preferences on all others.....but to no avail....in most cases....I think there are many fine new courses and architects that so many on here would not give a chance....UNLESS...you placed the name of a favorite on the course and did not tel l them until they had finished praising it... ;D ;D  We get some major dorkfest stuff going on on this site and it's sort of like guys playing TIGER WOODS GOLF video and someone thinking they can play golf.....not true for everyone but my firends that watch this site get that impression....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2010, 10:16:12 AM »
I agree that we need to be more embracing of the big world theory.  

Perhaps Ross, of all the golden age guys would have felt the wrath of gca.com as he designed courses from his home on Topos and visited very few of them.  Or maybe the good Dr. himself as he would show up on site for a few days, give a routing idea and then leave it for an associate to build and design.

Jason,

JC, are you kicking DR because he did not visit a vast majority of his sites? Egads! With all the courses DR was able to design in a realtively short period of time (imagine the explosive course growth back then) I would bet that even Tom Doak, et. al.  would not be able to visit that many sites personally and would rather than delegate to subordinates to keep the work. He surely wasn't making millions for design fees either. Travel was not fast and easy as well.

All those golden age guys would have felt our wrath for sure...
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Wade Schueneman

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Re: Are we missing the boat ?
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2010, 10:34:32 AM »
My one observation is that although I have played courses that are clearly all world, I rarely have found a golf course that did not have sufficient interest to keep me entertained.  I understand saying that a given course is not worth the cost of admission, and I understand saying that given a limited amount of time certain courses should be preferred over others, but even the no name munis that I grew up playing have some really fun aspects.  Of course, the inconsistent nature of my game tends to keep things interesting regardless of the venue.  My point is that I like the idea of studying and trying to understand great architecture, but I can see why some people tire of courses being labeled as terrible.

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