DISMAL RIVER GOLF CLUB

[Garland Bayley]

"Michael, all courses are hard for high handicappers - that's why they are high handicappers! "

That is not true. That is why the USGA has both a course rating and a slope rating.

What are the ratings for DR?

My brother plays a course with a slope rating of 106. He is a lousy golfer, but he can turn in fantastic scores for how bad he is.

[Chris Johnston]

"Michael, all courses are hard for high handicappers - that's why they are high handicappers! "

That is not true. That is why the USGA has both a course rating and a slope rating.

What are the ratings for DR?

My brother plays a course with a slope rating of 106. He is a lousy golfer, but he can turn in fantastic scores for how bad he is.

Garland, good point and point taken.  Let me amend my point... most great courses are hard for high handicappers - that's why they are high handicappers!  Can you name a great course that isn't so?

[Garland Bayley]

"Michael, all courses are hard for high handicappers - that's why they are high handicappers! "

That is not true. That is why the USGA has both a course rating and a slope rating.

What are the ratings for DR?

My brother plays a course with a slope rating of 106. He is a lousy golfer, but he can turn in fantastic scores for how bad he is.

Garland, good point and point taken.  Let me amend my point... most great courses are hard for high handicappers - that's why they are high handicappers!  Can you name a great course that isn't so?

TOC and many of the classics.

This seems to be something Jack has never learned.

[Garland Bayley]

     
Chris,

It occurred to me to do something I have never done before. Go on ghin.com and get course ratings.

Here in a nutshell is why many will not think Dismal River is great, yet why Pacific Dunes is one of the greatest courses of the modern era.
Jack has completely ignored a fundamental value in the design of great courses. Allowing the higher handicapper to get around and enjoy himself.

Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Bandon Dunes - Pacific Dunes   Bandon   OR

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
ORANGE   69.3   118   35.2   34.1   97.1   W
GOLD   73.1   126   37.5   35.6   102.9   W
BLACK   71.5   129   36.5   35.0   95.5   M
GREEN   69.3   125   35.3   34.0   92.5   M
GOLD   67.6   122   34.5   33.1   90.2   M


     
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Dismal River Club   Mullen   NE

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
Blue   73.2   139   36.5   36.7   98.9   M
Deer   75.1   142   37.3   37.8   101.4   M
Green   70.3   124   34.8   35.5   99.4   W
White   76.7   145   37.9   38.8   110.9   W
Pheasant   74.3   136   36.6   37.7   106.3   W

[Michael Dugger]

Chris,

Much thx for the responses....

As a clarification, when I said the course was forced onto the landscape, I was really thinking something else....and that is this:

When Dismal River originally came onto GCA.com's radar, there was talk that Jack never bothered visiting Sand Hills GC before designing and building DR.

There was also talk that perhaps in the name of only moving "a garage full" of dirt, the Nicklaus crew tried too hard to not disturb the existing topography when perhaps in places they should have.  After all, as you mentioned, this is a volatile environment where a lot of shifting around takes place.  

As a result, perhaps the course weathered poorly, was severe in places, stuff washed out, eroded away and played extremely harsh.

As I'm sure you are aware, Dr. Alistair Mackenzie said the goal of golf course architecture should be to make man-made "artificial" features indistinguishable from nature herself.  Not moving a ton of dirt on a glorious sight is great, but not at the expense of golf features that will not stand the test of time.

Do you know if it is true that the Nicklaus camp never visited with nor consulted with any of the Sand Hills blokes?  It's always been my understanding that if you want to learn vicariously how your golf course is going to react in a particular environment, you might consider visiting the guys down the road who have been living it!  

I've always been curious about that....and if it is true the Nicklaus camp never visited Sand Hills GC, I've got to wonder why...

Lastly, shouldn't golf be fun for high handicappers as well as low?  Dr. Alistair MacKenzie certainly thought so.  Shouldn't the term "great course" be applied to a lay out that fits the bill for both classes of player, the expert and the lesser skilled alike???

I'm glad you guys are thinning out the rough....losing balls all day long isn't my idea of a good time.  I'm also thrilled to hear you are working on the walking paths, the option of walking certainly shouldn't take lesser priority than carts.

It will be interesting to see if this revamped iteration of DR draws any top 100 list accolades.

[Mac Plumart]

Garland...

I think the middle tees at Dismal River are rated 73.3/139.  I might be off a bit, but that is close.

And, I think your point is spot on...Dismal should prove to be very challenging for a high handicapper.  

I loved the place and the course, but I think die hard walkers and higher handicappers might not love the course.


EDIT...I don't know what is wrong with me, I guess I missed the last 2 or 3 posts prior to my posting this one.  I think it is redundant.  Apologies.

[Garland Bayley]

...
EDIT...I don't know what is wrong with me, I guess I missed the last 2 or 3 posts prior to my posting this one.  I think it is redundant.  Apologies.

Nothing wrong with you. If you look at the date stamps, you will see that 3 posts were made in the same minute including this one. You were simply providing your original feed back while were were hitting enter just before you hit enter.

[Chris Johnston]

     
Chris,

It occurred to me to do something I have never done before. Go on ghin.com and get course ratings.

Here in a nutshell is why many will not think Dismal River is great, yet why Pacific Dunes is one of the greatest courses of the modern era.
Jack has completely ignored a fundamental value in the design of great courses. Allowing the higher handicapper to get around and enjoy himself.

Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Bandon Dunes - Pacific Dunes   Bandon   OR

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
ORANGE   69.3   118   35.2   34.1   97.1   W
GOLD   73.1   126   37.5   35.6   102.9   W
BLACK   71.5   129   36.5   35.0   95.5   M
GREEN   69.3   125   35.3   34.0   92.5   M
GOLD   67.6   122   34.5   33.1   90.2   M


     
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Dismal River Club   Mullen   NE

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
Blue   73.2   139   36.5   36.7   98.9   M
Deer   75.1   142   37.3   37.8   101.4   M
Green   70.3   124   34.8   35.5   99.4   W
White   76.7   145   37.9   38.8   110.9   W
Pheasant   74.3   136   36.6   37.7   106.3   W

Garland:  Dismal has no water, trees, or creeks.  Fairways are quite wide and we allow for the ground game on most holes.  The only equalizer is wind, just like #1 and unrated Sand Hills.  I would submit that Pacific Dunes, while shorter overall, is far more challenging in wind and the rough there is far more penal.  At PD, that 460 yard par 4 with a cliff on the right side sure isn't friendly to mid to high handicappers.  Dismal has some forced carries but we also have tee locations to help those who need it.  Most here finish with the same ball they began with.  The course is well thought out.

Michael - the original greens were more severe but have beem dialed down.  I give Jack credit for making the change rather than stubbornly holding out.  The course changes by nature not by design flaw - its a part of the Sand Hills.  There is nothing harsh about Dismal River except for elevation change.  Also, I believe the Nicklaus team did visit Sand Hills.

Mac - Dismal is very walkable - I will be doing so tomorrow.

[Mac Plumart]

 

[Eric Smith]

Mac - Dismal is very walkable - I will be doing so tomorrow.

I tend to agree with you Chris, as I mentioned several times in this thread, with proper walking trails cut from tees to fairways it should be similar in difficulty to walking SH.

Mac - Remember the 2 older couples that walked in front of us at SH? We never saw them again after number 1 and we were in carts! 

[Mac Plumart]

Dismal River isn't Sand Hills.  "Very walkable" isn't how I would describe it...at all.

I appreciate Chris' comments, but couldn't disagree more with that comment and his insinuation that it is a course that the high handicapper would enjoy.

Frank and honest discussion is what I am up for.  If that is his opinion and your opinion...great.  It is not mine and some of the tone of this entire thread seems to have shifted away from golf architecture discussion and seems a bit salesy to me.  Therefore, I will bow out of it and simply watch from the sidelines.

Eric...it has been a great thread!  Thanks for getting it going.

[Garland Bayley]

     
Chris,

It occurred to me to do something I have never done before. Go on ghin.com and get course ratings.

Here in a nutshell is why many will not think Dismal River is great, yet why Pacific Dunes is one of the greatest courses of the modern era.
Jack has completely ignored a fundamental value in the design of great courses. Allowing the higher handicapper to get around and enjoy himself.

Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Bandon Dunes - Pacific Dunes   Bandon   OR

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
ORANGE   69.3   118   35.2   34.1   97.1   W
GOLD   73.1   126   37.5   35.6   102.9   W
BLACK   71.5   129   36.5   35.0   95.5   M
GREEN   69.3   125   35.3   34.0   92.5   M
GOLD   67.6   122   34.5   33.1   90.2   M


     
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Dismal River Club   Mullen   NE

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
Blue   73.2   139   36.5   36.7   98.9   M
Deer   75.1   142   37.3   37.8   101.4   M
Green   70.3   124   34.8   35.5   99.4   W
White   76.7   145   37.9   38.8   110.9   W
Pheasant   74.3   136   36.6   37.7   106.3   W

Garland:  Dismal has no water, trees, or creeks.  Fairways are quite wide and we allow for the ground game on most holes.  The only equalizer is wind, just like #1 and unrated Sand Hills.  I would submit that Pacific Dunes, while shorter overall, is far more challenging in wind and the rough there is far more penal.  At PD, that 460 yard par 4 with a cliff on the right side sure isn't friendly to mid to high handicappers.  Dismal has some forced carries but we also have tee locations to help those who need it.  Most here finish with the same ball they began with.  The course is well thought out.

Michael - the original greens were more severe but have beem dialed down.  I give Jack credit for making the change rather than stubbornly holding out.  The course changes by nature not by design flaw - its a part of the Sand Hills.  There is nothing harsh about Dismal River except for elevation change.  Also, I believe the Nicklaus team did visit Sand Hills.

Mac - Dismal is very walkable - I will be doing so tomorrow.

Chris,

I think the objectively derived ratings speak for themselves.

[Eric Smith]

Dismal River isn't Sand Hills.  "Very walkable" isn't how I would describe it...at all.

I appreciate Chris' comments, but couldn't disagree more with that comment and his insinuation that it is a course that the high handicapper would enjoy.

Frank and honest discussion is what I am up for.  If that is his opinion and your opinion...great.  It is not mine and some of the tone of this entire thread seems to have shifted away from golf architecture discussion and seems a bit salesy to me.  Therefore, I will bow out of it and simply watch from the sidelines.

Eric...it has been a great thread!  Thanks for getting it going.

Mac, my friend:

I love your candor, and I appreciate it. Obviously you don't agree with Chris' walkability assessment or mine and that's fine.
But remember too, you have said many times, to me and on gca, that you have a difficult time envisioning what you can't see, or something to that effect.  I think you would also find Sand Hills to be a difficult walk as well.  But others walk it all the time.  Again, with trails to get through the native and down the sand hills at Dismal River, I would bet it would be maybe a degree more difficult (on a scale of 1-10) than Sand Hills, due to some more abrupt terrain, but not unwalkable.  There are courses near me, take the Bob Cupp course at Rarity Pointe in Knoxville for example - the green to tee transfers there are sometimes a quarter of a mile! Rediculous I say.  Dismal River's are close to one another.  The hardest part IMO of walking that course is walking in the soft sand down some of these slopes in front of the tees. That will have to be worked on and it sounds as though Chris and his team are indeed working on it.  I'd like to give it a try next time out.

[Mac Plumart]

Damn it, Eric.  I say I am going to bow out of the thread and you pull me right back in!!!   

This is what I mean by salesy.  Chris says the course is "very walkable".  However, you say that Sand Hills would be a difficult walk, but doable.  You then say Dismal would be a notch harder than Sand Hills, but again still walkable.  I agree with that assessment.  But to say it is "very walkable"...well, I just think that is a totally incorrect statement and comes off to me as salesy.

Concerning the rest of your post on the walkability of Dismal and what needs to take place to enhance that...again I agree and think you said it quite well.

[Eric Smith]

Hey Mac, I want to ride in the Hummer cart and drink a lot of beer when I'm at Dismal, you know that!  Very is probably much I would agree.  But Chris may think it is, he probably has walked it, so maybe he knows it is.  It is his opinion and I'm glad that he's shared it here.

Let's send Rob Rigg out to Dismal River asap for a second opinion.

[Adam Clayman]

Garland. Could you please decifer what the numbers say? I don't get the whole system and believe that they are not objective. Rather flawed when it comes to rating courses where wind, firm turf and short grass are the hazards. Sans trees, rough and water the system likely breaks down. 

[Garland Bayley]

Garland. Could you please decifer what the numbers say? I don't get the whole system and believe that they are not objective. Rather flawed when it comes to rating courses where wind, firm turf and short grass are the hazards. Sans trees, rough and water the system likely breaks down. 

It's really very simple Adam. Look at the bogey golfer numbers.
Depending on tees, the bogey golfer is expected to shoot 97.1, 102.9, 95.5, 92.5, or 90.2 at Pacific Dunes. I'll let you do the rounding.

At Dismal River it is 98.9 101.4 99.4 110.9, or 106.3.

That means the bogey golfer is going to shoot 7 or 8 strokes more at Dismal River. I don't have the exact definition of a bogey golfer at hand, but it is someone who actually shoots a little more than bogey on each hole. It's an index some where around 20.0 if I recall correctly.

The other thing to notice is that the slope ratings are all significantly higher. That means as you get worse that the bogey golfer, your scores rise faster at Dismal River than at Pacific Dunes.

If you don't believe they are objective, then you best throw away any measuring device and start giving your subjective opinion on distances. Since the overriding thing in these ratings is distance, and my yard stick is very close to your yard stick in length. I think you have to conclude they are objective.

[Chris Johnston]

    
Chris,

It occurred to me to do something I have never done before. Go on ghin.com and get course ratings.

Here in a nutshell is why many will not think Dismal River is great, yet why Pacific Dunes is one of the greatest courses of the modern era.
Jack has completely ignored a fundamental value in the design of great courses. Allowing the higher handicapper to get around and enjoy himself.

Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Bandon Dunes - Pacific Dunes   Bandon   OR

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
ORANGE   69.3   118   35.2   34.1   97.1   W
GOLD   73.1   126   37.5   35.6   102.9   W
BLACK   71.5   129   36.5   35.0   95.5   M
GREEN   69.3   125   35.3   34.0   92.5   M
GOLD   67.6   122   34.5   33.1   90.2   M


     
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Dismal River Club   Mullen   NE

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
Blue   73.2   139   36.5   36.7   98.9   M
Deer   75.1   142   37.3   37.8   101.4   M
Green   70.3   124   34.8   35.5   99.4   W
White   76.7   145   37.9   38.8   110.9   W
Pheasant   74.3   136   36.6   37.7   106.3   W

Garland:  Dismal has no water, trees, or creeks.  Fairways are quite wide and we allow for the ground game on most holes.  The only equalizer is wind, just like #1 and unrated Sand Hills.  I would submit that Pacific Dunes, while shorter overall, is far more challenging in wind and the rough there is far more penal.  At PD, that 460 yard par 4 with a cliff on the right side sure isn't friendly to mid to high handicappers.  Dismal has some forced carries but we also have tee locations to help those who need it.  Most here finish with the same ball they began with.  The course is well thought out.

Michael - the original greens were more severe but have beem dialed down.  I give Jack credit for making the change rather than stubbornly holding out.  The course changes by nature not by design flaw - its a part of the Sand Hills.  There is nothing harsh about Dismal River except for elevation change.  Also, I believe the Nicklaus team did visit Sand Hills.

Mac - Dismal is very walkable - I will be doing so tomorrow.

Chris,

I think the objectively derived ratings speak for themselves.

Garland

I won't debate the subjectivity of course ratings in general.  Dismal River has not been re-rated since several greens were reworked and since the rough was made far less penal.  So, despite the numbers, they don't speak for themselves - they are no longer correct and well on the high side.  Like Sand Hills, the numbers are of no importance to us - course and slope rating are almost impossible with wind from several different directions.   Simple fact is Dismal is far more playable these days, for all handicap levels and if re-rated, it would be slightly below Pacific Dunes.

Mac - I'm simply trying to answer questions as posed.  If being positive about Dismal River, the course and experience is "salesy", so be it.  It is a terrifric place.  Like most courses, if a high handicapper played the proper tees, it would be enjoyable and quite fair.  Have you ever walked Sand Hills or Dismal River?  I walk Sand Hills most times and both are very walkable for me.  Yes, there are long up and down hill trudges on soft sand - at both.  I have personally reviewed our trails this week and have enhanced a few.

[Garland Bayley]

So Chris,

The Dismal River ratings may be too high. But that doesn't take away from my point of Jack's ratings in general being significantly higher.
Three more examples each from ghin.com for courses by Tom and Jack.

 Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Bandon Dunes - Old Macdonald Golf Links   Bandon   OR

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
GREEN   71.3   127   34.1   37.2   94.9   M
BLACK   74.1   133   35.3   38.8   98.8   M
Gold   73.9   129   35.6   38.3   104.2   W
ORANGE   65.4   110   31.7   33.7   85.9   M
Orange   70.4   118   33.8   36.6   98.2   W
GOLD   68.2   119   33.1   35.1   90.2   M
Green   77.7   136   37.0   40.7   109.8   W
ROYAL BLUE   62.6   104   30.5   32.1   81.9   M
Royal Blue   66.4   108   31.6   34.8   91.9   W
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Ballyneal Golf & Hunt Club   Holyoke   CO

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
Green   72.1   120   35.9   36.2   100.4   W
White   74.1   126   36.6   37.5   103.8   W
Fairway   69.8   115   35.1   34.7   96.9   W

     
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Lost Dunes Golf Club   Bridgman   MI

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
Members   72.5   137   35.8   36.7   98.0   M
Red   72.4   133   36.3   36.1   103.6   W
Black   73.9   140   36.8   37.1   99.9   M
White   71.6   135   35.6   36.0   96.7   M
Members   73.6   135   36.9   36.7   105.3   W
White   77.9   144   39.0   38.9   111.8   W

     
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Muirfield Village Golf Club   DUBLIN   OH

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
Red   73.2   134   37.0   36.2   104.9   W
White   76.8   141   39.0   37.8   110.0   W
Memorial   76.6   150   38.0   38.6   104.5   M
White   71.4   138   35.8   35.6   97.1   M
Blue   73.5   143   36.6   36.9   100.1   M

     
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Castle Pines Golf Club   Castle Rock   CO

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
4 Bird   72.0   140   36.4   35.6   104.8   W
Int'l   77.1   155   38.7   38.4   105.9   M
1 Bird   76.1   150   38.1   38.0   104.0   M
3 Bird   71.0   139   35.6   35.4   96.7   M
4 Bird   67.8   137   33.8   34.0   93.2   M
2 Bird   73.8   147   37.0   36.8   101.1   M

     
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Mayacama Golf Club   Santa Rosa   CA

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
Forward   69.8   122   35.6   34.2   98.6   W
Ladies Back   72.2   132   37.6   34.6   103.4   W

[Rob Rigg]

Chris,

Glad you are working on making DR more walkable - love to hear that.

The paths really make a huge difference in terms of walkability when you can access the fairway on a path that leads directly there from the tee, instead of having to walk around on the cart paths.

Even on a "long'ish" walk it makes the journey a lot more enjoyable and manageable.

Mac,

Yeah - Sand Hills is a "Yellow" for me in terms of walkability (and has also been rated as such by numerous other TWGS members). If you are in good shape then 36 a day would be possible but I know a lot of guys tend to walk their morning round and then hop in carts to get as much golf in over the rest of the day. Definitely not a "green".

If DR is a notch below SH then it is probably still a yellow - 2.25 or 2.5 out of 4 - I think SH is probably 2.5 or 2.75 out of 4 for Walkability.

[Chris Johnston]

So Chris,

The Dismal River ratings may be too high. But that doesn't take away from my point of Jack's ratings in general being significantly higher.
Three more examples each from ghin.com for courses by Tom and Jack.

 Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Bandon Dunes - Old Macdonald Golf Links   Bandon   OR

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
GREEN   71.3   127   34.1   37.2   94.9   M
BLACK   74.1   133   35.3   38.8   98.8   M
Gold   73.9   129   35.6   38.3   104.2   W
ORANGE   65.4   110   31.7   33.7   85.9   M
Orange   70.4   118   33.8   36.6   98.2   W
GOLD   68.2   119   33.1   35.1   90.2   M
Green   77.7   136   37.0   40.7   109.8   W
ROYAL BLUE   62.6   104   30.5   32.1   81.9   M
Royal Blue   66.4   108   31.6   34.8   91.9   W
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Ballyneal Golf & Hunt Club   Holyoke   CO

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
Green   72.1   120   35.9   36.2   100.4   W
White   74.1   126   36.6   37.5   103.8   W
Fairway   69.8   115   35.1   34.7   96.9   W

     
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Lost Dunes Golf Club   Bridgman   MI

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
Members   72.5   137   35.8   36.7   98.0   M
Red   72.4   133   36.3   36.1   103.6   W
Black   73.9   140   36.8   37.1   99.9   M
White   71.6   135   35.6   36.0   96.7   M
Members   73.6   135   36.9   36.7   105.3   W
White   77.9   144   39.0   38.9   111.8   W

     
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Muirfield Village Golf Club   DUBLIN   OH

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
Red   73.2   134   37.0   36.2   104.9   W
White   76.8   141   39.0   37.8   110.0   W
Memorial   76.6   150   38.0   38.6   104.5   M
White   71.4   138   35.8   35.6   97.1   M
Blue   73.5   143   36.6   36.9   100.1   M

     
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Castle Pines Golf Club   Castle Rock   CO

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
4 Bird   72.0   140   36.4   35.6   104.8   W
Int'l   77.1   155   38.7   38.4   105.9   M
1 Bird   76.1   150   38.1   38.0   104.0   M
3 Bird   71.0   139   35.6   35.4   96.7   M
4 Bird   67.8   137   33.8   34.0   93.2   M
2 Bird   73.8   147   37.0   36.8   101.1   M

     
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Mayacama Golf Club   Santa Rosa   CA

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
Forward   69.8   122   35.6   34.2   98.6   W
Ladies Back   72.2   132   37.6   34.6   103.4   W

Garland

As this is a thread about Dismal River, I thought it appropriate to elaborate on the rating as it relates to the question of higher handicappers.  We are very playable and I hope you now see this.  My Dad is 79 and he enjoys Dismal from the proper tees.  I can offer no opinion on the other designs or their ratings.

[Garland Bayley]

Change of subject Chris,

I don't know much about Project X shafts. However, I have played with two people recently that had them in their clubs. What struck me is that the logo was on the bottom of the shaft instead of the top like you see in most clubs. Were these two golfers ashamed of their shafts and trying to hide the logo?  Or, are Project X shafts welded on the side that has the logo so that is the proper way to install the shaft?

[Rob Rigg]

Garland,

The PX stickers are put on after the shaft has been installed - hence the consistency.

Spine aligning and FLOing the shafts will ensure they are installed correctly.

You can tweak the N plane for fade or draw bias if necessary - or something.

The stickers still go on the bottom after all that fun.

True Temper are "copying" what the larger "Project X" sticker style on their tour player's sticks.

[Chris Johnston]

Change of subject Chris,

I don't know much about Project X shafts. However, I have played with two people recently that had them in their clubs. What struck me is that the logo was on the bottom of the shaft instead of the top like you see in most clubs. Were these two golfers ashamed of their shafts and trying to hide the logo?  Or, are Project X shafts welded on the side that has the logo so that is the proper way to install the shaft?

Garland

The shaft sticker on Px was put on the bottom of the shaft so it isn't visible by the player at address.  We didn't do a traditional around the shaft band because many on tour don't want them (some do) - for some it is a distraction.  The Px shaft band does show up on the finish of the swing, and most photos are taken in this position.  The sticker has nothing to do with the weld, just the pure look of the shaft at address.  And, when we introduced the shaft, we wanted something different than the regular Rifle family look - the band was part as was the satin finish in the early runs.

[Mike Bowline]

Change of subject Chris,

I don't know much about Project X shafts. However, I have played with two people recently that had them in their clubs. What struck me is that the logo was on the bottom of the shaft instead of the top like you see in most clubs. Were these two golfers ashamed of their shafts and trying to hide the logo?  Or, are Project X shafts welded on the side that has the logo so that is the proper way to install the shaft?

Why the hijack? This has been a very, very interesting thread. from the peanut gallery, please keep it on track.