Biarritz Question

[Wyatt Halliday]

From John Kirk's Old Macdonald thread

I was told Mr. Bahto insists that the Biarritz hole should never, ever, be pinned up front.

It seems to make sense to me since without challenging the channel where's the shot test?

Adam:

I insist that it should on that particular version of the hole.  It's a really interesting shot to try to stop it on the front of the green, as it is for the ninth hole at Yale [but not so much for other versions of the Biarritz]. 

If George really feels the opposite about the 8th hole at Old Macdonald, he never piped up and said so to me.  My understanding is that it's entirely Mr. Keiser's preference not to use the front hole locations.

With regard to other versions of the Biarritz, why continue to build a green that only utilizes 60% of the surface for hole locations?

[Fred Yanni]

Wyatt - somewhat related to your question.  I played Piping Rock yesterday for the first time and we had a wait on the 9th tee.  After studying the hole for a moment I turned to the caddy and asked him "when did the club decide to make the green smaller and forgo the Biarritz green?"

First he was a bit surprised but said he wasn't sure when and why they decided to change the green to use just the back portion and cut the rest as a fairway. 

If anyone has any infromation on Piping Rock that would be great.

Thank You

[Jim Sweeney]

I may be mis-remembering, but my observation of the barritzes I've played is that the ones that are elevated in front (Yale, Black Creek, for example) are all green and have enough room for a front hole location. Those that lie low to the ground (Camargo) are fairway in front.

On the built up examples, one must fly the ball all the way to the front of the green. When played from a shorter distance (down by the pond, in Yale's case) a lofted shot to a front hole location is very demanding- short or long and there's trouble. It's not such a fun shot from 200 yards.

In either example, the real thrill is running the ball through the swale and the expectation of what will happen when it reappears. This effect occurs whether the front is green or fairway, or whether there is room for a hole location.

Biarritz greens must be relatively expensive to maintain. Its my experience that is the entire structure is maintained as green, there is an available hole location in the front, but should only be used when play is from the shorter tees.

[DMoriarty]

Conceptually, I don't think the first plateau on a biarritz was ever supposed to be part of the pinnable green.   Originally, the idea was that the first plateau would act as sort of a hog's back ridge, shedding all but straight run-up shots to the  sides.   Those trying to carry to the green would be frustrated if their shot was just short-- their ball would likely hit into the valley upslope and stay there.    Both these features are consistent with Macdonald's general approach of frustrating the almost perfect shot while rewarding the perfect shot.

Because the golfer was supposed to be able to play through the first plateau, they may have been cut low, but I don't think they were intended to be pinnable greens.  For example, if I recall HJ Whigham's description of the hole correctly, I don't think that the first plateau at Piping Rock was originally intended to be pinnable green.   

That being said it seems like one could easily pin this front area if it produced an interesting shot.   The green at Old Macdonald is a good example of this.   

[Jim Nugent]

I may be mis-remembering, but my observation of the barritzes I've played is that the ones that are elevated in front (Yale, Black Creek, for example) are all green and have enough room for a front hole location. Those that lie low to the ground (Camargo) are fairway in front.

St. Louis CC is an exception to this.  The green is elevated, and the swale is part of the green. 

[Bill Brightly]

Wyatt,

The answer is becuase it is not REALLY a putting surface but rather, just a really fast and firm fairway, a bunkered approach to a long par 3 hole.

Of course it is technically "putting surface" but the pin should hardly ever be up front, IMHO, because that is NOT the intent of the hole. The intent is to challenge you to hit a low, running shot between the bunkers, through the swale, with enough force to make it up the swale to the pin in back.

Not one Biarritz was originally built with the front section as green, not even Yale. Mowing the front section shorter is a modern adaptation which I LOVE becuase that re-creates Macdonald's intent. What fairway is firmer than a putting green? This recreates the posiiblity of a ground game on these holes, especuially for shorter hitters.

IMO, irrigatrion systems coupled with modern golf equipment ruined Biarritz holes for anyone who can carry the ball 215+ in the air. Cutting the front section at green height at least allows many shorter hitters to experience an old style shot. (Of course, many of us are so addicted to an aerial game we don't even think to try.

George Bahto is right, Biarritz holes should NEVER have the pin located up front, except for Monday outings and Tuesday ladies day

[Jim Nugent]

Not one Biarritz was originally built with the front section as green, not even Yale.

Anyone know when and why that changed? 

BTW, a technicality: are you sure that none of the modern Biarritz holes were built with the front section as green? 

[V. Kmetz]

I cannot add anything to the discussion that has not been already correctly said with the following exception:

1.  While no one has effectively reported on the original in coastal France from which Macdonald drew his template (the topography has been largely obliterated by development anyway) I do sense for shreds of evidence that the absolute best copy of the hole comes to us on the 5th of Fisher's Island...though somewhat more stringent than the original which needed only an 80 yard hit to effectively carry the chasm and had somewhat more open ground to the left than the 5th F.I. or other copies.  But the generality - I believe - is correct....endless Atlantic to the right, a knee knocking vista, and excessively strange target area that was camouflaged by its contours. Oh yes...and fairway, not green in the front "pad" 

2.  Despite the fact that fishers #5 and earlier maintenance practices generally kept the front pad as firm mounded fairway, I think the development of the front being green surface is apt to today's experience.  Very few choose to play a punchy skipping shot of that length any more, especially when there's carry involved. And we must also acknowledge that to be an originalist for incorporation of design features or the ever-elusively defined "shot value"...a 200 to 225 yard shot was a little closer to a Driver for the better player then, than for the better player today.  The average 15 HCP may still need driver to play a 225 tee, but the better player plays a more lofted spinning shot for that distance than when the original was observed.  This is all to say that the Biarritzes' contemporary delight is that putt down and through the swale and up to the rear, or the pitch, chip or sand wedge across the swale from the sides.  Or the frightening putt on the occasions when your result has finished beyond and above a rear pad location and you realize perdition awaits past the cup.  The fun of the hole is more invested in having the whole complex be green now.

3.  And if George Bahto is accurately quoted - he's absolutely correct - the pin must never be in the front pad if the entire complex is cut as green.  The swale is then, not in the equation for sound, controlled play and 1/3rd of the hole is gone.  You still have the carry and the vista, but the swale is only for misses and so removed as part of the hole's playing character.

4.  I think the Biarritz is one of the most unique and fun hole styles, but more than that - my adoration for it as spectacle has helped me realize that in many ways it's the perfect half par hole (3.5) in the same way the Road Hole is a perfect half par hole of 4.5.  and just as 3s are rare and precious on the Road Hole...2s are memorable on a Biarritz

cheers

vk

[DMoriarty]

I cannot add anything to the discussion that has not been already correctly said with the following exception:

1.  While no one has effectively reported on the original in coastal France from which Macdonald drew his template (the topography has been largely obliterated by development anyway) I do sense for shreds of evidence that the absolute best copy of the hole comes to us on the 5th of Fisher's Island...though somewhat more stringent than the original which needed only an 80 yard hit to effectively carry the chasm and had somewhat more open ground to the left than the 5th F.I. or other copies.  But the generality - I believe - is correct....endless Atlantic to the right, a knee knocking vista, and excessively strange target area that was camouflaged by its contours. Oh yes...and fairway, not green in the front "pad"

I'm not convinced that the Chasm hole was the model for the biarritz (although CBM might have combined features from two holes.    There was a hole next to the beach (with the ocean on the left, playing toward the little building) which may have better fit the description-- a hog's back plateau running up the middle and then ending before the green, then a plateau green.    I don't think CBM or HJW ever said the Biarritz was based on the Chasm hole, nor did they ever describe the gaping chasm off the tee as a feature of the hole.

I may be wrong about this,  but would love to see where either of these guys said otherwise.

[V. Kmetz]

DM,

It's really not from anything said, but from the painting of the alleged hole, someone posted on a Biarritz thread of mine last Fall...if that painting is accurate and of the real McCoy then the hole CBM grafted is one that plays a lot like Fishers #5 with water on the right.

Now that painting does not capture anythign of the green target, so it can't be known, but I can't imagine a painting of a hole in Biarritz, France that carries a chasm and has - like most every copy we see, have water on the right as well - be any other. 

But I admit I cannot give you provenance for what the painting purports to capture - if it is just a Chasm hole with no Biarritz green - and the hole is templated elsewhere on the now-obliterated course.  Although it seems more than coincidental that many of the the first Biarritz copies all have that pernicious carry and water damnation on the right...and that's exactly what the painting looks like.

cheers

vk

[Bill Brightly]

Not one Biarritz was originally built with the front section as green, not even Yale.

Anyone know when and why that changed?  

BTW, a technicality: are you sure that none of the modern Biarritz holes were built with the front section as green?  

Jim,

Yeah, I am REALLY sure. Show me evidence of one that was a double green...

 Think back to 1910-1930: no irrigation, low running shot through a swale, a CLASSIC Macdonald invention, IMHO

I would love to know when Yale was converted to a full double green, that might have been the first one.

[Ben Sims]

Wyatt,

I've played three pretty solid renditions of the biarritz at Yale, Old Mac, and Lookout Mt.  Lookout was the only one with fairway as the first tier.  I can say after seeing Yale's this summer, I might be a fan of the fairway in front version better. 

The reason I say this is two-fold.  1) Yale and Old Mac both were presented as elevated shots whereas Lookout is mostly level and 2) seeing Yale's pin in front on my one play left me with a forlorn feeling.   At Yale, the pin was in front and I was fairly underwhelmed by the shot and was very disappointed with my routine 7 iron over water.  The ONLY reason that Yale's version is okay with a pin in front is due to the player being forced to carry enough club to get over the water, bringing the swale into play for many players.

The level version, with fairway as the front tier, leaves room for a bit more creativity in my mind.  I can't remember enough about Mac's front tier to comment too much further.  But for me, after writing this, I remember it to be more about the look from the tee (elevated, level, or downhill) and not whether the green comes back through the swale.  The green on the front only work if you can see it.

[Jud_T]

I've never seen a front pin on a golden age Biarritz, and rightly so IMHO.  However, I have yet to play Old Mac, so I'll reserve judgement on that interpretation....

[Warwick Loton]

With regard to other versions of the Biarritz, why continue to build a green that only utilizes 60% of the surface for hole locations?

A purely speculative thought - maybe the double green adds challenge to these holes by playing with depth perception. Stick a pin at the back of any long green and watch how many average golfers come up way short. Elite golfers and others who play to accurate yardages mightn't do so, but most golfers will.

[Tim Bert]

I've never seen a front pin on a golden age Biarritz, and rightly so IMHO.  However, I have yet to play Old Mac, so I'll reserve judgement on that interpretation....

Interesting.  I played Yale's to a front pin all 3 or 4 days I have been there. I finally asked someone an was told they use the rear pin less frequently an almost never on weekends, which I assume is for pace of play reasons.

Tis a shame because I think the hole loses a lot of luster to the from pin, at least from the tees I play, because it doesn't demand enough club to make the swale a real issue with the front pin.

I would prefer a 3:1 ratio of back to front pins. I do wish Mr Keiser planned to use th front pin on occasion. Perhaps we could sway them to give us a front pin for the "extra" round many of us are playing at the King's Putter in March.

[Sean_A]

I too am nowhere near convinced that the Biarritz concept came from the Chasm Hole at Biarritz.  Especially since there is some evidence that CBM saw North Berwick's Gate before he built Piping Rock, when it may have had two plateaux, but only one cut as green before he built Piping Rock.  Unfortunately, there is no photo of the hole in the wonderful British Golf Links, but Hutchinson provides a quick description whic includes "The sixteenth hole is on a lesser plateau..."  In an interesting twist, it could be that CBM's Biarritz's provided the impetus for North Berwick to create the double plateaux green!

I think it a reasonable possibility that CBM made the "template" hole up himself.  

Here is an old quote from Naccers quoting the infamous H Wigham (though it isn't clear what is a quote and what is Naccers) having seen the hole in person:

"The Chasm Hole itself was--as described by one H. Wigham--as a strong running punch shot into the wind which required you to hit the front and run it on from there. It was the more sensible play, albeit a chance that you would have to hit through the huge swale while avoiding the hogsback nature of the first half of the green which could funnel you into the deep bunkers on both sides. If you tried to carry the deep swale--and failed, you would have an even tougher play from with-in the swale itself."

Ciao

[Ross Tuddenham]

I have not played Biarritz hole so maybe this is a silly question.  Although I have played North Berwick and while playing Silloth with Niall Carlton he mentioned that maybe the 4th holes green had Biarritz characteristics. 

My question is this; Why is there such a problem with the front half being pinned, assuming it is maintained as green?

People mention the thrill of waiting to see the ball come through the hollow of the tee shot but would that not apply for a putt that came from back to front.  Also assuming you are running the ball up to the green from the tee is there not the thrill of waiting to see if the ball will stop before going through the swale, if the flag is on the front portion?

[Bill Brightly]

My question is this; Why is there such a problem with the front half being pinned, assuming it is maintained as green?

People mention the thrill of waiting to see the ball come through the hollow of the tee shot but would that not apply for a putt that came from back to front.  Also assuming you are running the ball up to the green from the tee is there not the thrill of waiting to see if the ball will stop before going through the swale, if the flag is on the front portion?

No problem at all, and you can also drop a ball on the top of the Ridge on Hole #3 rather than play it from the tee box   The idea is to play a Macdonald course...and for many, the round that some greenskeeper plays around and creates a front pin postion may be that player's ONLY time at Old Macdonald...

Ther are PLENTY of mid-range par 3's that have shots similar to a front pin on a Biarritz, but NONE like a proper Biarritz, especially when conditions require the player to land the ball on the front section. Old Macdonald may have one of the best...so why screw around with it???

[Sean_A]

My question is this; Why is there such a problem with the front half being pinned, assuming it is maintained as green?

People mention the thrill of waiting to see the ball come through the hollow of the tee shot but would that not apply for a putt that came from back to front.  Also assuming you are running the ball up to the green from the tee is there not the thrill of waiting to see if the ball will stop before going through the swale, if the flag is on the front portion?

No problem at all, and you can also drop a ball on the top of the Ridge on Hole #3 rather than play it from the tee box    The idea is to play a Macdonald course...and for many, the round that some greenskeeper plays around and creates a front pin poistion may be that player's ONLY time at Old Macdonald...

Ther are PLENTY of mid-range par 3's that have shots similar to a front pin on a Biarritz, but NONE like a proper Biarritz, especially when conditions require the player to land the ball on the front section. Old Macdonald may have one of the best...so why screw around with it???

Bill

What about the members who play the course every week?

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

As I said earlier, Mondays and Tuesdays are great days for front pins. Helps the pace of play with outings and the ladies do not mind missing the experience...

The hole is SO much easier with a front pin.  They played the Met Am last year at my course and I took the afternoon off to sit on our Biarritz and watch the area's best amateurs play our Biarritz from the new black tee we put in, a 250-260 yard shot. Instead, the officials used the front portion of the green and the white tees: a 165 yard shot!!! I know they did this for pace issues to get the field around, over the green is almost always a lost ball...The point is a good Biarritz is truly a par 3 1/2. A front pin Biarritz is just another par 3 hole, a complete yawner.

[PCCraig]

I'm pretty sure I heard that at Shoreacres when they started their restoration work they did a soil sample of the front part of their Biarritz green and decided that when the course was built, it wasn't supposed to be part of the green. However, the front section is now mowed to green height. I can imagine that is a good idea when the Biarritz is built on land that isn't always F&F.

I would disagree that placing the pin on the front section of the green makes for an easy and boring hole. My favorite pins on a biarritz are very close to the swale, and when they do that on the front section it's fun to watch players get a little too aggressive in club selection and go past pin high and have to putt back through the swale, or hit short and have to hit a putt that doesn't go past the hole.

I don't think it makes it a worse hole when the pin is in the front, just a different one, which is one of the reasons I love biarritz greens so much...their greens allow for so much variety! 

[Ross Tuddenham]

I'm pretty sure I heard that at Shoreacres when they started their restoration work they did a soil sample of the front part of their Biarritz green and decided that when the course was built, it wasn't supposed to be part of the green. However, the front section is now mowed to green height. I can imagine that is a good idea when the Biarritz is built on land that isn't always F&F.

I would disagree that placing the pin on the front section of the green makes for an easy and boring hole. My favorite pins on a biarritz are very close to the swale, and when they do that on the front section it's fun to watch players get a little too aggressive in club selection and go past pin high and have to putt back through the swale, or hit short and have to hit a putt that doesn't go past the hole.

I don't think it makes it a worse hole when the pin is in the front, just a different one, which is one of the reasons I love biarritz greens so much...their greens allow for so much variety! 

Pat that is what i was trying to get at, I just don't see why that configuration can be called weaker.  Plus what is easier.  Going through the swale from the tee or going through the swale when putting?

Is it the case that you are more likely to have to putt through the swale when the pin is on the front of the green?

[PCCraig]

I'm pretty sure I heard that at Shoreacres when they started their restoration work they did a soil sample of the front part of their Biarritz green and decided that when the course was built, it wasn't supposed to be part of the green. However, the front section is now mowed to green height. I can imagine that is a good idea when the Biarritz is built on land that isn't always F&F.

I would disagree that placing the pin on the front section of the green makes for an easy and boring hole. My favorite pins on a biarritz are very close to the swale, and when they do that on the front section it's fun to watch players get a little too aggressive in club selection and go past pin high and have to putt back through the swale, or hit short and have to hit a putt that doesn't go past the hole.

I don't think it makes it a worse hole when the pin is in the front, just a different one, which is one of the reasons I love biarritz greens so much...their greens allow for so much variety! 

Pat that is what i was trying to get at, I just don't see why that configuration can be called weaker.  Plus what is easier.  Going through the swale from the tee or going through the swale when putting?

Is it the case that you are more likely to have to putt through the swale when the pin is on the front of the green?

Ross I can understand why many on here call a front pin easier. In the case of Shoreacres their 6th hole, the biarritz is 80+ yards long front to back. So a back pin vs. a front pin makes the hole play either 230 or 150...big dfference in club selection obviously.

If you only had the chance to play a particular barritz green once, then yes I would preferr to have the pin in the back as it's fun to run a shot through the swale. However, if you have the chance to play one multiple times (IE you're a member or playing Old Macdonald a bunch on a trip to Bandon) I wouldn't want to constantly play to a back pin. Again the variety in strategy from pin-to-pin is the biggest reason to mow the front section of a biarrtz green.   

[George_Bahto]

The swale on the Biarritz at Old Macdonald is one of the most interesting and innovative versions of a Biarritz swale there is, thanks to the talents of Tom and his associates.

Most swales (even the remaining originals built by Raynor and Banks) are very linear - by that I mean they have similar/exact angles on each side of the swale.

What they built at Old Macdonald is a swale that has different movements and different angles in and out of and along that swale.

Often when swales are "restored" or newly built on this style hole, it looks as though someone took a huge pipe and pushed it down into the ground and nearly all the angles are the same throughout - a big uniform-looking dent.

I tried to capture the Old Macdonald swale it in the photo below.

I spent a lot of time during the construction phases of the course putting through that swale, still better - putting diagonally though that swale.

I still maintain Macdonald used the Valley of Sin swale fronting TOC's 18th as his inspiration for this great feature.

[Jerry Kluger]

George: What about the contours/slopes of the front and back of the greens away from the center swale.  It does appear that the front right has a contour which would reject a shot - I do not remember what the left front of the green was like.  It would make the shot a bit more challenging than a flat surface.