Dogleg holes where fairway slopes in the opposite direction of the dogleg

[Phil Benedict]

Is this good, bad or neutral as an architectural feature?  I kind of like it because it rewards being able to shape shots since the combination of, for example, a dogleg left where the fairway slopes to the right puts more of a premium on being able to hit a draw than a dogleg with no fairway slope or sloping in the same direction.

In the interest of full disclosure I like a dogleg right/left sloping fairway less because it's harder for me to hit a fade, although of course it's the same thing architecturally.

This thread is inspired by the double hazard thread and the concept of 'architectural no's.'

[Niall C]

Phil

Does one of the holes at Wentworth not have this feature ? Not only do you have to shape your shot but you have to be spot on with your line. I think you could mark me down for a double bogey straight away.

Niall

[Phil_the_Author]

Bethpage Blue hole #6 is a 430-yard severe dogleg left where the dogleg begins about 170 yards from the tee. The entire length of the near 75 degree dogleg falls quickly and dramatiocally away from the direction of the turn. 98% of all drives end up in the right rough and much further from the green than they should. This hole is njot built for a right-hander who can draw a ball, but rather as a reward for he who can't control his hook. He lives for this hole...

[Tom_Doak]

I like this just as an occasional feature, but it's hard to make it work properly.  The fourth at Crystal Downs is an excellent example.  Olympic (Lake) has too many of them for my tastes.

Pete Dye told me never to do this because most players wanted to straighten out the hole in such a situation, but it works fine as long as the tree line or hazard on the high side of the fairway is strong enough.

[Phil McDade]

Oakland Hills' 18th is regarded as one of the premier examples of this on a championship course in the US; at the PGA and Ryder Cup contested there, it gave players fits.

Here's a good example of one, at a course called Old Hickory about an hour NE of Madison, WI. It's a dogleg left (par 5) with a significant cant from left to right near the landing area; the fairway doglegs to the left around the trees on the left side of the fairway, on top of the ridge.



Looking back at the ridge line; from this angle, the tee is situated at about 2 o'clock:

[Jud_T]

Agree this is difficult to pull off well.  My former club had a couple of these and Brad Klein ripped them in his review (rightly in hindsight)....

[Ally Mcintosh]

Did Flynn not do this quite regularly.

I like it once a round. Woking 3rd is a good example.

[Phil McDade]

Jud:

What's not to like? I think, as Tom mentioned, in moderation these holes can be a very good test of skill. In the photos I posted, the hole is a fairly short par 5, so much of its teeth is derived from the reverse cant of the fairway.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

In my case it was a combination of a mediocre GCA job and my inability to hit a draw off a slice lie....

[Phil Benedict]

Phil,

In my case it was a combination of a mediocre GCA job and my inability to hit a draw off a slice lie....

For the record I only favor this feature if it promotes a certain shot shape from the tee. where the lie is neutral.  Having to hit a fade from a hook lie or vice versa is so beyond the skills of the vast majority of golfers that it at most shouild be an option (e.g. to get at a right pin) but never a requirement (other than recovering from a bad shot, which is the golfer's fault, not the architect's).

[Adrian_Stiff]

I would try an avoid this as much as possible. These holes are generally unloved whilst the fairway sloped with the dogleg are loved. When this sort of landscape pops up in a possible routing mainly you are going to use the loved version and work with the land, a left to right slope doglegging left is absolute hell to a fader and the worst form of this ofcourse as most people slice, they are not quite so bad the other way. I would look at the inclusion into a routing as a minus.

[Sean_A]

I am a bit ambivalent toward this design techinique because I don't see it pulled of well very often.  I think the leg should be gentle, not too abrupt - the 9th at Woking is one such poor example.  I also like it if there is a way to slip the shot through on the inside of the leg especially on a course with firm ground.  I also like if missing on the outside isnt' a dead approach, but a severely difficult where it prhaps a long courageous is on offer.  The two more famous ones I know of are the 1oth and 12th of Hoylake. In general, I think it should be avoided unless the perfect opportunity for it arises - sort of like hitting a driver from the deck!    

Ciao

[Mark McKeever]

The third hole at Phoenixville CC is a fantastic example.  With OB down the right, the hole cuts left, but slopes toward the OB the entire way.  Great green too where you can only see the surface after a big drive right at the corner.

Mark

[Steve Burrows]

Having to hit a fade from a hook lie or vice versa is so beyond the skills of the vast majority of golfers that it at most shouild be an option (e.g. to get at a right pin) but never a requirement (other than recovering from a bad shot, which is the golfer's fault, not the architect's).

Phil,

That's a fair point, but if players are not expected to hit a shot that is outside of their comfort zone from time to time (my emphasis), wouldn't design just be pandering to the lowest common denominator?  I don't think that players should be standing on the tee expecting a fairway contour that necessarily helps the shot.

Moreover, with both right-handed players and left-handed players, each of whom may play a hook or a slice, a designer needs to find an interesting variety of holes and shots,even if that means going against convention.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Having just posted in the Strandhill thread, I will also nominate the first as a good example of this type of hole

[Phil Benedict]

I would try an avoid this as much as possible. These holes are generally unloved whilst the fairway sloped with the dogleg are loved. When this sort of landscape pops up in a possible routing mainly you are going to use the loved version and work with the land, a left to right slope doglegging left is absolute hell to a fader and the worst form of this ofcourse as most people slice, they are not quite so bad the other way. I would look at the inclusion into a routing as a minus.

The point of this post seems to be that it should be avoided because it's too hard; hence it is "unloved."

[Adrian_Stiff]

I would try an avoid this as much as possible. These holes are generally unloved whilst the fairway sloped with the dogleg are loved. When this sort of landscape pops up in a possible routing mainly you are going to use the loved version and work with the land, a left to right slope doglegging left is absolute hell to a fader and the worst form of this ofcourse as most people slice, they are not quite so bad the other way. I would look at the inclusion into a routing as a minus.

The point of this post seems to be that it should be avoided because it's too hard; hence it is "unloved."

Phil- I would term it this way..... think 10th ANGC, that doglegs left and the cant is pleasing. Think of that cant moving the other direction but with the routing of the hole the same left dogleg... that is not pleasing...loved/unloved... but partly yes an awkward cant against the dogleg  it can equal hard too. It all depends on the degrees of, but its not easy to get a good one, I can't think of one hole I have designed that doglegs against the slope or even one hole I have played that I have admired but perhaps there are good ones.

[Sven Nilsen]

How about this feature combined with a green sloped from right to left, so that a shot that makes the turn is in line with the fall of the green.  The player that can pull of the desired tee shot is rewarded with an easier approach.  I can't think of any examples, but I'm sure they're out there.

[David Egan]

Agree this is difficult to pull off well.  My former club had a couple of these and Brad Klein ripped them in his review (rightly in hindsight)....

Which club?  A Chicago club?

[Fred Yanni]

The 17th at Oak Hill is the hardest hole of this type I can remember.  It forces you to hug the huge trees on the right with a cut to get the correct bounce and a favorable role forward.  A tee shot that does not cut enough gets a kick to the left and the player is rewarded with a long difficult shot from the rough to the well guarded green.

I never get too upset as it is a great half par hole anyway but a fine example of the feature being discussed in this thread. 

[Rory Connaughton]

Phil:

15 at Lancaster (Flynn as Ally noted above) is a right dogleg with fairway sloping left.  The hole plays around 420 for member play and 440 off the championship markers.  The hole is interesting in that short drivers have a fairly straight forward tee shot as long as they don't challenge the dogleg. The get some roll down the slope and typically have 180-200 to the green.  The longer hitter has to decide how much of the corner to chew off.  If the line is too conservative and the ball is not faded, there is a good chance to run through the fairway.  If an aggressive line is taken the hole can be shortened considerably but the shot must be straight or draw. An aggressive fade will invariably land you in the bunker inside the dogleg as the bunker is angled such that it chases a long fade. 

The hole gets very interesting on the approach. The green is back up hill and the narrowest green on the course. The front 3rd is false front and the green is canted right to left such that it favors a fade.  So the ideal shot is a fade from a hook lie to a green that will send the ball back into the fairway if the approach is too short.  At the same time, the shorter hitter has an excellent opportunity to run a hybrid or long iron into the green from back in the fairway.

It is not a hole that gets tons of attention but it may be the most interesting hole on the course in terms of providing equal challenge on the approach regardless of the option taken off the tee.

[Ian Dalzell]

14 at Augusta National immediately comes to mind.  While I have never had the privilege to play there I have been to about 6 masters and always watch the players struggle off that tee.  It is awkward to the eye, and I think it's okay in architecture because for many they won't know exactly what it is about, but they know it is hard to get comfortable over that tee shot!

As long as it is not duplicated too many times at a single course I think it is fine.

Ian

[D_Malley]

This feature works very well on the 7th hole, tee shot at Paxon Hollow.
It is a par 5 of only 450 yards with a very sharp dogleg left at about 225 yds. from the tee.
The fairway slopes from left to right in the Landing area, and makes this hole play much longer.
Trees and OB down the left make it difficult but not impossible to cut the corner.

Overbrook has a couple of holes like this (maybe too many)
Also Mannys has a par 5 with this feature.

It seems that it has become a not do for most modern GCA's

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

In application, I think it's a bad feature.

Metedeconk has several of these and I think it makes for awkward and awful golf.

I"ll elaborate more, later.

[Steve Burrows]

Pat,

I think the issue here revolves around the occurance of this feature on a very limited basis.  Like any architectural feature, if it is used too often on a given course, it will seem monotonous, even ridiculous; your example bears that out.  But diversity and variety in design is crucial (per Macdonald), which makes your universal condemnation of this concept seem overly harsh.  Used judiciously, surely this design element has merit.