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John Kirk

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Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« on: August 19, 2010, 12:49:53 AM »
My best friend Kelly recently applied for a caddie position at the Bandon Dunes Golf Resort.  I used it as an opportunity to visit the resort for about 10 days in the past month, and help my friend out by having him caddie for me in the mornings, followed by an evening round together.  Mostly we played Old Macdonald (7 times) and Bandon Trails (3-4 times), since I was less familiar with the 3rd and 4th courses at the resort.  As great as they are, I thoroughly enjoyed playing Pacific Dunes and my one round at the original course, on an breathtaking afternoon day so sublime it defies description.  What a great place.

By playing Old Macdonald several times, I could study it carefully and get a feel for the rhythm of the course.  In general, I felt the front nine was shorter but a little trickier, perhaps tougher to score on a yard-by-yard basis.  The back nine is longer and a bit gentler, once you get past the Redan.

Here are some comments and questions:

1.  The approach shots to holes #1 and #2 play so long, even when the wind isn't a factor.  Both the Double Plateau and Eden holes play 10-15 yards longer on the approach it seems.  It must have something to do with the elevated greens.

2.  The Hog's Back (hole #4) is made great by the big bowl in front of the green.  At 504 yards, the hog's back gives a power boost to solid drives, but still requires a long second shot.  The big bowl gives approach shots that land 30-40 yards short a second boost, propelling them onto the green.  In addition, one day I actually used the left side of the bowl to bank a low 5-iron back towards the center of the green.  Great stuff.

3.  Don't go for the back left pin on Long (hole #6).  Don't ask questions; just don't do it.  Lots of fun trying to thread the second shot down the left side away from Hell bunker.

4.  My comment about hole #7?  I can't believe they put the pin there, day after day.

5.  Two questions about the Biarritz.  First, was there any particular reason the trough was designed a bit shallower in the center?  Second, why aren't they using any front pin positions?  The club choice is a bit monotonous day after day.

6.  Although I am only a medium length ball striker (maybe 235-240 yards in the air with a solid drive), I played Old Macdonald from the black tees every time but once.  From the back tees, the tee shot at the Cape is daunting. I couldn't hit it far enough left to avoid the bunkers.  I had quite a bit of trouble with this hole.

7.  In the spirit of incisive commentary, per Mr. Morrissett's instructions, what is the deal with hole #10?  For me, the best play was out at the right bunker, even risking a lie in the rough.  The last day, I successfully played between the center and right bunkers, leaving 190 yards from an uphill lie in the fairway.  I hit a decent cut 4-iron that found the green and two putted from about 30 yards.

I'm wondering if the designers are thinking that the safe play is two 230 yard shots to make a par.

8.  A couple things about the Road hole (hole #11).  I assume the intention is to create a very difficult par 4:

a.  I have hit driver off of the fairway less than 10 times in my entire career, but have tried it three times at this hole already, despite the tight fescue turf.  Into the wind, I am often left with 200-220 yards, and driver seems the safest way to get the ball down close to the green.

b.  With the pin on the left side, I made par two times in a row by playing driver, 4-wood, fading the 4-wood in from the left and letting the wind drift the ball back.  I assume this is the favored strategy here.  Even if you're in the rough, it's a safe pitch to an uphill sloping green.

9.  The last two times playing the Leven hole (hole #13), the pin was on the right, and I played left off the tee, carrying the left fairway bunker on my drive.  Both times, the pin was back right in a low spot, a birdie position.  The first time I had about 105-110 yards remaining, into a very light wind, played a nice pitching wedge to 15 feet and made the putt for a 3.  The second time, the wind was a little stronger, and I had 108 to the center of the green.  We thought the pin was about center (it turned out to be about +7), and it seemed the wind had died, or changed into a mild crossing wind.  I hit gap wedge which landed maybe 25-30 yards short, rolled into an awkward lie in the front right bunker and I made 6.  When I walked up the green, the wind was quite strong, and I figured out the large mound left of the green had blocked the wind, making it difficult to judge.

Questions:

a.  Is the mound a natural feature?
b.  Did you know it would block the wind and confound the golfer?

Another golf hole where the approach plays very long.  Still, it's the best chance for birdie on the back nine.  That, or the Punchbowl.

10.  The little mound across from the big cross bunker on the 15th fairway bit me on the last day.  Small feature, big impact.  Good decision to cover that with longer grass.

11.  Is the barber pole on the Alps hole (hole #16) calibrated to connect the center of the fairway with the center of the green?  During both of my last two rounds, I ended up further left than I thought I would be.

12.  Littlestone (hole #17) should be pretty easy, but I had trouble with it.  Is laying up in the left center of the fairway, short of the big front bunker, the safest play?  Or is it dependent on hole location, meaning the player should risk going down the right side on their second shot to attack front pins?


Any other posters who have questions, please feel free to use this thread to ask.

At this moment, I still regard the intimate and purely original Pacific Dunes as my favorite course at the resort.  Perhaps Old Macdonald comes in second, but Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails have great merit.  In general, I feel our group tends to overlook Bandon Dunes a bit; it is a sensational golfing experience.

The attention to detail is obvious.  Thanks to the crew and consultants for all your great work.  
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 12:52:19 AM by John Kirk »

William_G

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Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2010, 01:28:50 AM »
John, LOL, lucky you to play so often there  :)

Obviously wind was out of the north for your comments.

With the wind out the south, #3 from the black tees is an incredible driving hole just to reach the fairway over the ridge!

But then #6 downwind is reachable. :D

Funny thing, we played two days in a row, and the hole positions were not changed, can't remember when that last happened ???

#8 the Biarritz with the massive green, except, the front half (30 yards) is not being used for hole positions, why ???

#9 into the wind is driver, driver, sand wedge...

#12 into the wind from the black tees is unreachable :-X

#13 downwind is driveable ;D

#14 reminds me of Cypress Point

#15 on your third shot with a back hole position, hit more club

#18 into the wind is driver, driver, wedge

The coolest thing apart from the golf was being greeted on our way back to the clubhouse by the same starter who greeted us as we teed off 4.5 hours earlier, much like a host thanking his guests, never has happened to me before on a golf course. Very cool, as its one thing to be there at the start, but to shake your hand at the end made it very cool. Thanks 8)











It's all about the golf!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2010, 09:14:55 AM »
William:

They usually change the holes only every second day on all the courses at Bandon.  The fescue doesn't heal so quickly from cutting cups, so unless it's been really busy, you wait an extra day.  They figure most guests are playing a different course the next day.

John:

That's a lot of questions.  Some of the answers seem to me just a function of the wind, but I'll answer the ones for which I have an answer:

5.  The trough is natural; the back half of the green is fill.  We were trying to tie into a little ridge in the back and a natural bunker on the right, which made the trough not so deep.

5 (b).  Mr. Keiser thinks nobody likes to play the hole with the flag in front, and that it's too tricky of a shot to that pin.  We disagree, but we haven't been able to win that battle yet.

8.  The Road hole is much more fun in no wind or a light tailwind, if you are playing from the back tee.  (We did put a tee way up right to give people a fighting chance to reach it in the summer.)  Aiming to the left on the approach?  Sounds dangerous to me.

9.  The mound was there the whole time; it was one of the only features you could make out when everything was gorse.  I never thought about whether it would fool anyone as to the wind.

11.  I suggested the barber pole on #16, but it wasn't there yet for Opening Day, so I don't know for sure what line it's on.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2010, 09:21:19 AM »
I was told Mr. Bahto insists that the Biarritz hole should never, ever, be pinned up front.

It seems to make sense to me since without challenging the channel where's the shot test?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2010, 12:05:20 PM »
Adam:

I insist that it should on that particular version of the hole.  It's a really interesting shot to try to stop it on the front of the green, as it is for the ninth hole at Yale [but not so much for other versions of the Biarritz]. 

If George really feels the opposite about the 8th hole at Old Macdonald, he never piped up and said so to me.  My understanding is that it's entirely Mr. Keiser's preference not to use the front hole locations.

Jin Kim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2010, 12:34:25 PM »
Tom, on the Road Hole, I hit a decent drive that trickled into the left rough leaving me about 170 in with a good lie.  I wanted to hit my approach short right to leave myself a chip without gambling with the bunker, but with the left pin caddie told me to go at it and miss left if anything.  Hole high just off the green left me with an easy up and down.

The hole I really want to try again is the redan.  First round, hit a really high 4-hybrid into the wind that I was sure was going to be good; bounced once on the right side of the green and then over (which led to a couple of chips then a pick up).  I don't think I can hold a shot that lands on that green; I think a solid low running shot is what is called for even though the elevated green suggests to me that you can't run it up.  Tried that on my second round but hit a weak shot to the right so couldn't validate my thinking.

John, I didn't think the approach shots to 1 and 2 played any longer than similar length shots elsewhere.

I really loved old mac.  Just a flat out fun course.  I also think that when I'm striking the ball well, this would be the easiest course at the resort to go low on.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2010, 03:32:49 PM »
   Road hole can be had from the left side, even with the hole behind the bunker. A low shot at the bunker with a slight cut is needed to negate the slope angle on the upslope of/to the green.
   I'd agree that the biarritz would be much more difficult with a the flag up front. Bring it on.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2010, 04:33:16 PM »
I am a little surprised at hearing about the difficulty with the front pin on the Biarritz hole. When we played, most shots on the green were in the front part as we misjudged the distance and left it short of the back pin. I didn't think it was overly difficult to hit.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2010, 07:27:02 PM »
Richard, It's probably easy to hit except for when the pin is there.  ;)  Which, according to Tom, it won't be unless he can convince Mr. Keiser. Actually, Tom said interesting, not difficult.

Tom, As i intimated, I was told, so my info was second hand. Plus, it didn't imply just your biarritz, I thought it was how he felt about all Biarritz. However, as Richard  points out, because of this holes downhill nature, hitting less club is likely in order. Which almost assures a good percentage of golfers coming up short, as Richard illustrates.

I wonder how much of an influence, wide spread irrigation systems, which has evolved into a predominately aerial assault version of the sport have affected the beliefs of everyone involved?  
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 09:13:43 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bill Brightly

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Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2010, 07:40:33 PM »
Adam:

I insist that it should on that particular version of the hole.  It's a really interesting shot to try to stop it on the front of the green, as it is for the ninth hole at Yale [but not so much for other versions of the Biarritz].  

If George really feels the opposite about the 8th hole at Old Macdonald, he never piped up and said so to me.  My understanding is that it's entirely Mr. Keiser's preference not to use the front hole locations.

Tom,

Why would George argue with you when he already knows how Mr. Keiser feels about pin placement?   ;D
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 07:42:46 PM by Bill Brightly »

Cristian

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Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2010, 07:47:24 PM »
William:

They usually change the holes only every second day on all the courses at Bandon.  The fescue doesn't heal so quickly from cutting cups, so unless it's been really busy, you wait an extra day.  They figure most guests are playing a different course the next day.

John:

That's a lot of questions.  Some of the answers seem to me just a function of the wind, but I'll answer the ones for which I have an answer:

5.  The trough is natural; the back half of the green is fill.  We were trying to tie into a little ridge in the back and a natural bunker on the right, which made the trough not so deep.

5 (b).  Mr. Keiser thinks nobody likes to play the hole with the flag in front, and that it's too tricky of a shot to that pin.  We disagree, but we haven't been able to win that battle yet.

I visited Bandon in June playing each course twice over 4 days. I assume more people arrange there visit like that. Would I have been disappointed not to play a back pin position (twice)? Hell yes!

8.  The Road hole is much more fun in no wind or a light tailwind, if you are playing from the back tee.  (We did put a tee way up right to give people a fighting chance to reach it in the summer.)  Aiming to the left on the approach?  Sounds dangerous to me.

I find this comment interesting; apparently you are suggesting people should elect the tee's played on a per hole basis rather than per round?! The back left strategy sounds dangerous to me as well. My caddie did suggest the same thing however, so apparently it is popular mode of attack. (I have watched a lot of BBC however during StA Open's, so I ignored the suggestion, played save to the right, made par......)


9.  The mound was there the whole time; it was one of the only features you could make out when everything was gorse.  I never thought about whether it would fool anyone as to the wind.

11.  I suggested the barber pole on #16, but it wasn't there yet for Opening Day, so I don't know for sure what line it's on.

I am not sure, but I think the pole is calibrated for a shot landing over the mound, but in front of the green and taking the left to right downslope towards the green. So, if you would want to fly the distance to the pin using the stick as a directional aid, you would end up well left of target. (and rightly so as the poll is not a direction aid, but a hint to an alternative line of attack; correct me if I am wrong.)


« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 08:15:49 PM by Cristian Willaert »

Anthony Gray

Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2010, 08:10:20 PM »
I am a little surprised at hearing about the difficulty with the front pin on the Biarritz hole. When we played, most shots on the green were in the front part as we misjudged the distance and left it short of the back pin. I didn't think it was overly difficult to hit.

   I think it is a good hole to bunt a driver and watch it roll down the hill.You just have to keep it away from the mound on the left.

  Anthony


Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2010, 09:28:34 PM »
I am a little surprised at hearing about the difficulty with the front pin on the Biarritz hole. When we played, most shots on the green were in the front part as we misjudged the distance and left it short of the back pin. I didn't think it was overly difficult to hit.

I think we experienced quite the opposite in our group. I recall everything racing to the back that landed on the green.  We can't blame wind for the discrepancy since we played the same day!

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2010, 02:34:11 PM »
FROM THE "ONLY POSTING ACCURATE INFORMATION DESK" AT BANDON DUNES.......................Cups get cut EVERY DAY on all four courses.   

If on occasion there are cups cut that seem to be similar to the previous day's location, well, that can happen.


In the winter months, with far less play from day to day, cups might not be cut every day.

That's what I know.


Tom
the pres

Jim Franklin

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Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2010, 03:41:27 PM »
We almost had THREE ACES on the Biarritz with the pin just slightly past the ravine. All 3 shots ended within 3 feet with 2 of them rolling right past the hole. The 3rd stopped just short of the hole. I thought it was a great hole though and a front pin placement would be great.
Mr Hurricane

John Kirk

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Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2010, 11:35:03 AM »

The hole I really want to try again is the redan.  First round, hit a really high 4-hybrid into the wind that I was sure was going to be good; bounced once on the right side of the green and then over (which led to a couple of chips then a pick up).  I don't think I can hold a shot that lands on that green; I think a solid low running shot is what is called for even though the elevated green suggests to me that you can't run it up.  Tried that on my second round but hit a weak shot to the right so couldn't validate my thinking.

John, I didn't think the approach shots to 1 and 2 played any longer than similar length shots elsewhere.



Jin,

Here are my experiences.

On the last day, there was little wind.  After a reasonable opening drive, I had 128 to the center of the 1st green.  The pin was on the left plateau, which, according to the caddie guide, is mid-depth.  I aimed right and drew an 8-iron onto the plateau.  In general, 8-iron plays 145-150 for me on summer days at the home course.

On the same day, the Redan was playing at the 181 (black tee) marker, with the pin right up front, easily 10 yards short of center.  I hit a solid high 5-iron right at the stick.  It landed a few feet short and bounded about 20 feet past, up the hill.  I trickled it down and tapped in for par.

Most days I hit 3-iron or 4-iron to the 2nd hole (Eden).  Of course, if you successfully hit a low, driving shots into holes at the Bandon resort, the tight turf allows the ball to roll out, in many cases even further than a well struck, high trajectory shot.  So the club/yardage equation is not an exact science.  But after watching a handful of shots at the Double Plateau and Eden holes, if I were a caddie, I'd recommend that players play each hole one club longer, due to them being slightly uphill, with raised greens.

I hit the Redan green twice in seven attempts, using two different strategies.  From the green tees (about 185 or so), I hit a low, rather straight long-iron (5-iron in this case) that landed about 10 yards short and 4-6 yards right of the center of the green.  It scooted up and rolled on.  From the back tees, a demanding 237 yards, this could be accomplished, dependent on wind, if I carried a 2-iron.  Very satisfying when you pull it off.

The way I hit the green from the black tees was a cut 4-wood back into the slope.  Very satisfying when you pull it off.  Otherwise, 4-wood was a too much club.  If I had a 5-wood, I wouldn't have had to manipulate the shot.

It's a thinking man's course that deserves multiple plays.  I would enjoy hearing your favorite playing anecdotes.  A little more this evening.

Tyler Ince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Comments and Questions
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2010, 12:51:08 PM »
ok so i played all 3 courses in 2007. 36-54-36 and lost a toenail.  by what i have seen and heard of Old McD, I would lose a toe for a trip there.  when is the next one?
'til the Road Hole....

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