Oh My Lord, if this "grounding club in waste bunker" happens...

[mike_malone]

 They interviewed Pete Dye; he said he agreed with the PGA's characterization of these areas as bunkers. He did , however, make an inconsistent reference to PVGC and TOC ( The Ocean Course).

[V. Kmetz]

Exactly Mike Malone...
(post 62)
that IS the salient GCA point as to the conduct of major championships on such designs, which - historically have given impetus to emulating design styles and inventing new ones.

Justice is supposed to be blind, but nothing is said of its other senses and just like jurisprudence evolves to tackle contemporary injustices not contemplated by legislation the greatest admission of guilt will come in the form of the PGA...

1.  Never having a local rule like this again
AND/OR
2.  Instructing pairings officials and rules officials to alert players to exceptional conditions where they conspire with local rules
AND/OR
3.  Tripling efforts to allow the player freedom to play from spectators (starting with but not limited to, not allowing the crowd ANYWHERE in a designed, playable hazard)

As to those who cite what a rules official is there to do or not do, I say this:

I'm not an official but I'm experienced in the conduct of rulings and committee decisions but all of you who are there to say their role is limited to protecting the rest of the field with sanction, you are entitled to your opinion.

But it is my opinion that you are WRONG and I am right, like one of you (PY?) asserted that someone who wondered why the rules official couldn't offer an assessment of an extraordinary local situation in the extraordinary context of a crushing crowd and final group of the day.  

And don't say the final group is "just the same" as any other...why do they put the most experienced poobahs of the day on that assignment?

you cannot tell me that if DJ hit the ball clearly OB by 5 distinct yards, hit no provisional, and just ignored the stakes and cleared the crowd and located his yardage and began to play it from OB that the rules official would not have said "What are you doing?"  Don't you know you're Out of Bounds?"

TEP - I appreciate your view - but it sounds awful patrician to me, especially in a situation that you acknowledge pushes an envelope of ambiguity.  I also appreciate your balanced tone and as I said in more strident terms - that this (and you did acknowledge same by saying
'this is where it gets complicated") injustice will be vindicated by the PGA's future actions which I believe will include the above points.

If they are not to blame - ultimately, then why is it that you and I and everyone else contributing to this thread know they will eradicate this situation from happening again?  The blame is that the safeguards (any at all indeed get them off the hook) did not match the context or conditions of a competition on this golf course.

And the failure has crushing impact on the identification of a champion golfer.  They know it, the pairing official knows it, dye knows it - perhaps Kaymer will know it after his happiness ebbs.

this stuff about the caddie is missing the forest for the trees.  Under that philosophy his blame is exactly 12% of the equation...the number he was being paid then?

 
cheers

vk

[Jim Sweeney]

Tim Bert: I read you post with interest. You stated that DJ, realizing what he had done, stepped back and looked at the edge of the bunker- something about an area of light, and that he asked the crowd for help with the light. Can you elaborate? Did he ask the crowd to block some light, or provide shadow, while he played his shot? Or maybe to allow some light or block the light so he could better determine whether his ball was touching the sand, which meant it was in the bunker? Do you have a different interpretation?

[Matt_Ward]

David:

The situation with the status of a bunker is FAR different than you're silly reference to an official telling a player to return his ballmark to the exact position it previously ocupied. Apples and oranges situation -- when a course like The Straits has one zillion potholes that call themselves bunkers -- I think it helps everyone to know for sure as a player --especially one on the 72nd hole of a major. An official coming forward can really prevent the nightmare the PGA has brought upon itself.

Officials are there to prevent rules from being broken -- intentionally and otherwise.

I don't doubt DJ could have asked -- officials can do a nice job in the prevention situation especially when you have such a weird situation at the course with all of its so-called bunkers.

[Tim Bert]

Tim Bert: I read you post with interest. You stated that DJ, realizing what he had done, stepped back and looked at the edge of the bunker- something about an area of light, and that he asked the crowd for help with the light. Can you elaborate? Did he ask the crowd to block some light, or provide shadow, while he played his shot? Or maybe to allow some light or block the light so he could better determine whether his ball was touching the sand, which meant it was in the bunker? Do you have a different interpretation?

The group around him had cast a pretty wide shadow.  There was a small sliver of lights in the sand and extending to the edge of his, which I assume was very distracting.  One never likes to have both light and shadow in your view when swinging and in this case the small patch of light was being caused by a small gap in the gallery.  I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was something to the effect of "block it out" meaning he didn't want that small sliver of light distracting him.  I don't think it had anything to do with him questioning whether he was in the sand, though when that very short clip is viewed in isolation and you don't see what he says / does next it does appear that he is looking at the edge of the bunker and questioning if he might actually be in a hazard.  I do not think that was the case.  I believe him when he says the thought never crossed his mind.

[Paul OConnor]

If DJ had contended that he did not ground his club in a bunker, and then signed his card, would he have been DQ'd for signing a wrong scorecard?  If he was DQ'd, would he have collected $0?  

[Jim_Coleman]

    The second he grounded his club I thought it was a penalty.  I always assume sand is hazard unless it's a road.  This wasn't a "local rule;" "waste bunkers" are a local rule.  And no such rule was in effect.  Grounding a club in sand feels wrong.  And on WS, they couldn't talk enough about the 1,200 bunkers.  Chances are, are you're in sand, you're probably in one.  I feel bad for Johnson, and he seems like a really good guy, but he may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[mike_malone]

 I get the sense that not much is going through DJ's mind. This is good and bad.

[Jim Sweeney]

Tim B: Thanks for the explanation. I was afraid that's what you would say. I say "afraid" because it raises the spectre of another rules issue- did DJ ask for and receive help in making his stroke? I'm not suggesting this was the case because I only know what you have told me and do not have my Decisions book handy and do not know of any such decision anyway. But a contestant cannot receive assistance of this type- for example, having someone hold an umbrella to protect the player from the rain during his stroke. An interesting academic question, at least.

[Mike McGuire]

A sign of the times. Less and  less personal responsibility.

Guy loses focus and does a dumb thing and people find blame everywhere else they can. Even call him a hero for not freaking out.

If DJ really had class he would not have left doubt that the PGA missed the call. He would have said Its my job as a professional to know the rules and I messed up.

You think of the guys with major class like Tom Watson or Crenshaw.... what would they have said if it happened to them?

[Matt Kardash]

There was never a moment where I didn't think he was in a bunker. If I knew he was in a bunker on tv I don't know how he didn't know.

[Scott Coan]

Supplementary Rules of Play

1. Bunkers: All areas of the course that were designed and built as sand bunkers will be played as bunkers (hazards), whether or not they have been raked. This will mean that many bunkers positioned outside of the ropes, as well as some areas of bunkers inside the ropes, close to the rope line, will likely include numerous footprints, heel prints and tire tracks during the play of the Championship. Such irregularities of surface are a part of the game and no free relief will be available from these conditions.

Note 1: The sand area in front, left and behind No. 5 green in the later water hazard is NOT a bunker (do not move stones).

Note 2: Where necessary, blue dots define the margin of a bunker.

According to the above rules the players were apparently responsible for determining which sandy parts of the course were DESIGNED AND BUILT AS SAND BUNKERS.  To provide a little extra guidance they even went so far as to paint blue dots around some of them.

Were there any blue dots around this particular sandy stretch??

DJ was obviously caught up in the moment.  There he was, approaching a gigantic hillside full of hundreds upon hundreds of spectators and he trudges up to his ball and is provided a TINY perspective of his surroundings, the immediate vicinty of his ball being a sandy waste area.  Had there been any sort of crowd control perhaps he could have been provided with a bit of perspective to see that he was actually in a bunker, but there was nothing but absolute chaos.

You can understand why he did not stop and think about if Pete Dye had designed and built this particular piece of sand as a bunker when just 5 minutes before the same hillside was wall-to-wall people.

After he struck his shot one of the "shot guides" gave the touchdown sign to point out that the shot was going straight - AND HE TRUDGED RIGHT THROUGH WHERE DJ HAD JUST HIT HIS SHOT!!

What a shame.  Perhaps if he noticed the BLUE DOTS he or his caddy may have said - hang on a minute, this is a bunker.  Obviously this is one of the spots WHERE IT WAS NECESSARY.

Just think how much more pretty they would look from the blimp with blue eye-liner!!

[TEPaul]

V kmetz:

You appreciate my view but it sounds patrician to you?  

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. You should understand that what I said on the first post is not necessarily my personal view but I certainly do know how tournament committees (a tournament's Rules Officials) work and particularly at the level of the PGA Championship. All those Rules Officials know that they are all expected to do the very same thing with all players regardless of what their personal opinions are on something like the philosophical question of whether or not any Rules Official should advise any player or not if he sees him about to violate a Rule without being asked.

We are all expected to do the very same thing and this definitely goes right to the heart of the concept and philosophy of "equity" within the Rules of Golf. In many ways I personally feel this philosophy and concept of equity has gone too far in the application of the Rules in tournament golf if we cannot tell a player about to violate a Rule what his situational Rules ramifications are or are about to be but that is not really my call when I'm out there officiating tournaments. We are all expected to do the same thing in this vein whether it's never advising any player of this unless they ask or whether we are ALL given the latitude to advise any player any time we see a potential violaton even if he doesn't ask (the latter is pretty rare actually).

This is essentially the way Rules officiating works at least at the higher levels and particularly in stroke play and if some Rules official feels he should just do something different than the rest of the Rules Officials out there in contravention of what the Tournament Committee tells and/or asks them to do, then he probably won't be officiating for that organization very long.

There are not all that many players who understand those kinds of nuances of Rules officiating but if any of them are ever interested they can always ask us and we will tell them EXACTLY what it is we will or won't or can and can't do in that particular tournament.

I basically like to feel I can help a player not violate a Rule but sometimes I don't really get to make that call because I'm expected to do the very same thing that all the rest of the Rules Officials do for all players in any particular tournament that utilizes that philosophy. Frankly, that too can be considered a form of golf Rules "equity"----eg the principles that all golfers in a tournament are going to treated the same under the Rules.

Even though I philosophically feel that way (that I would like to be able to help a player not violate a Rule by at least being able to explain the Rules to him) I also appreciate one of the basic principles in the Rules of Golf and that is it is any player's sole responsibility to protect his own rights and in that vein a real familiarity with the Rules of Golf sure helps any player but if he is ever in doubt in any situation at all he should know he can always ask a Rules Official and he will get him a Rules answer to any situation and even if it is wrong the player is off the hook on penalty if he goes with a Rules Officials Ruling.

That's what we are out there for but any player should understand what his responsibilities are in a Rules Context or in any situation. These tour pros play golf for a living and a whole lot of money and if they can't even be bothered to understand all the Rules they play under week after week they are doing themselves no good at all.

The Rules of Golf are pretty complicated but not all THAT complicated; and they certainly ain't rocket science. I would hope that from now on Dustin Johnson will know not just the basic 34 Rules of Golf better but also the Appendix in which the so-called "Conditions of Competition" resides and that he and his caddie read and understand the whole thing (the Conditions of Competition) in any tournament because they are certainly not always the same from tournament to tournament.

What did Johnson lose out on with that violation and/or neglecting to ask about the Rules ramifications of that situation? $100,00? $200,000? $500,000? For that kind of money is it really not worth it for either he or his caddie to totally read and completely understand what a perhaps two page sheet (The Conditions of Competition) says in any golf tournament?  

[Tim Bert]

Tim B: Thanks for the explanation. I was afraid that's what you would say. I say "afraid" because it raises the spectre of another rules issue- did DJ ask for and receive help in making his stroke? I'm not suggesting this was the case because I only know what you have told me and do not have my Decisions book handy and do not know of any such decision anyway. But a contestant cannot receive assistance of this type- for example, having someone hold an umbrella to protect the player from the rain during his stroke. An interesting academic question, at least.

I wondered that when he first asked them to bock the light.  But then I was thinking that the sliver of light was only there in the first place because the people were there surrounding him.  He certainly could have asked for more room to hit his shot, which might have left the entire area in light instead of shadow.  It would seem if someone were standing over him casting a shadow that he could have asked them to move, and this doesn't seem much different than that upon more reflection.

[Bill Brightly]

V K

If I were caddying for DJ (or you) I PRAY that I would have reminded my player about the (dumb) rule which was made VERY clear  to us. I think you would have reminded me. It is obviously the player's fault, but a great caddy stops a player from making dumb mistakes several times in a tournament, right?

DJ showed class, but his caddy could have saved the day, and I bet the caddy is torn up insde right now, don't you agree?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Tim B: Thanks for the explanation. I was afraid that's what you would say. I say "afraid" because it raises the spectre of another rules issue- did DJ ask for and receive help in making his stroke? I'm not suggesting this was the case because I only know what you have told me and do not have my Decisions book handy and do not know of any such decision anyway. But a contestant cannot receive assistance of this type- for example, having someone hold an umbrella to protect the player from the rain during his stroke. An interesting academic question, at least.

I wondered that when he first asked them to bock the light.  But then I was thinking that the sliver of light was only there in the first place because the people were there surrounding him.  He certainly could have asked for more room to hit his shot, which might have left the entire area in light instead of shadow.  It would seem if someone were standing over him casting a shadow that he could have asked them to move, and this doesn't seem much different than that upon more reflection.

This is what I meant when I stated on page 1 that DJ may not have only broken one rule.  After speaking with a knowledgeable GCAer this evening I looked further into this...

"14-2/2.5  Player Positions Bag for Purpose of Providing Shade for Ball
Q. A player positions his golf bag near the teeing ground for the purpose of blocking the sunlight from the position where he tees his ball. He then makes a stroke. Is he in breach of Rule 14-2?

A. Yes. As the player was not in contact with the golf bag, he accepted protection from the elements in breach of Rule 14-2. This answer differs from that in Decision 14-2/2 as, in that case, the player was in contact with the umbrella.

While a player may not place an object or position a person for the purpose of blocking the sunlight from his ball, he may ask a person (e.g., a spectator) who is already in position not to move, so that a shadow remains over the ball, or to move, so that his shadow is not over the ball. (New)"

[Tim Gavrich]

My two cents here...

I would rank the blame as follows:

1. Dustin Johnson--Shame on him for not taking proper heed of the well-documented alerts about playing the off-fairway bunkers as bunkers, even if the crowd was standing in them.  Whether or not we agree with the rule is irrelevant, and whether or not the players agree with the rule is irrelevant.  It must be followed; no excuses.

2. Bobby Brown (Johnson's caddy)--Shame on him for not providing the proper fail-safe in the event that his player is about to break a rule.  If Dustin hadn't taken those flyers about bunkers seriously, it's on the caddie to take them seriously.

3. The PGA--Shame on them for setting a rule that paved the way for this kind of situation.  I'm all for bunkers being "true hazards," but making them that way by allowing the crowd to walk through them is a contrivance.

4. Pete Dye--I have enjoyed every Pete Dye course I've played (even Pound Ridge, at least a little bit), but all those bunkers on a golf course that was meant to hold big-time tournaments such as this were going to open the door for this kind of situation.  It's a bummer.

Incidentally, I am also in the camp that thinks the rules official with a group need not interject himself/herself into a situation unless called into a situation.  The baseball umpire should not need to tell a player where first base is, right?  I know there are more nuances to the rules of golf, but a professional golfer shouldn't be able to claim ignorance and expect to be saved by a rules official, should he?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I wondered why He did not ask. When the TV guys showed where the ball lnded it was clearly a sand trap. It seems a sand trap trampled down by spectators but a sand trap none the less. On the other hand none of the tV guys said anything about him grounding the club which was obvious as well. I assumed it was called and marked a waste area for the tourney, but it seems not. The player has no one to blame but himself when he hit off sand and did not inquire as to its status.

[Brian_Sleeman]

Well summarized, Tim.

[Bill_McBride]

Steve L,


Well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that's the issue exactly...failure after failure

It makes me crazy that some are taking the "Dems da' rules" approach to this and wishing Dustin Johnson luck.  He doesn't need their good wishes, he needs to have an administration and foresight to not allow this to happen

No local rule
where's the Rules official
where's the crowd control
where's the rules official

and for my money...no more whistling Straits

cheers

vk

See post #31 - signs everywhere - if it's sand it's a bunker.

Dustin is one hell of a player but he is definitely a work in progress!

[TEPaul]

Jim Sweeney and Tim Bert:

I saw that thing Johnson did about the light or shadow or whatever. Pro golfers who have a lot of spectators around them in sunlight do that all the time. Somebody was obviously moving and his shadow was moving near Johnson's ball. Johnson basically asked him (he actually pointed to the shadow moving on the ground and asked it) to stop moving so his shadow that was moving around his ball would stop. But then he said something I've never heard. He sort of said humorously that if the guy who was moving (his shadow) didn't stop moving then maybe someone could sort of block the sunlight that the guy's shadow was moving in.

There is no way in the world that should be considered a violation of Rule 14-2a (Assistance), in my opinion.

Actually it's pretty funny the way those pros generally do that if there are a lot of people in sunlight around them. They hardly ever look into the crowd and try to find the person who is moving in the sunlight----they generally point their club at the shadow on the ground that is moving in the sunlight and announce it to the crowd thereby apparently expecting the person doing it to figure it out and be still.

[jeffwarne]

My two cents here...

I would rank the blame as follows:

1. Dustin Johnson--Shame on him for not taking proper heed of the well-documented alerts about playing the off-fairway bunkers as bunkers, even if the crowd was standing in them.  Whether or not we agree with the rule is irrelevant, and whether or not the players agree with the rule is irrelevant.  It must be followed; no excuses.

2. Bobby Brown (Johnson's caddy)--Shame on him for not providing the proper fail-safe in the event that his player is about to break a rule.  If Dustin hadn't taken those flyers about bunkers seriously, it's on the caddie to take them seriously.

3. The PGA--Shame on them for setting a rule that paved the way for this kind of situation.  I'm all for bunkers being "true hazards," but making them that way by allowing the crowd to walk through them is a contrivance.

4. Pete Dye--I have enjoyed every Pete Dye course I've played (even Pound Ridge, at least a little bit), but all those bunkers on a golf course that was meant to hold big-time tournaments such as this were going to open the door for this kind of situation.  It's a bummer.

Incidentally, I am also in the camp that thinks the rules official with a group need not interject himself/herself into a situation unless called into a situation.  The baseball umpire should not need to tell a player where first base is, right?  I know there are more nuances to the rules of golf, but a professional golfer shouldn't be able to claim ignorance and expect to be saved by a rules official, should he?

I see ad nauseum worship of "natural" blowout bunkers on this sie.
So if a player were at Sand Hills and was in a blowout 50 yards right of the fairway, why would that not be a hazard?
and what if a gallery member or members had trampled it? wouldn't it still be a hazard?
I'm stunned that many on this site demand perfect maintenance of hazards outside the ropes and are surprised that the PGA would play bunkers way off the intended line as hazards.
pretty sure those pesky sheep left a few prints in the original bunkers

[Jeff Shelman]

Also overlooked in all of this: If he would have hit 3 wood instead of driver, he might not have been in this situation.

[TEPaul]

"I know there are more nuances to the rules of golf, but a professional golfer shouldn't be able to claim ignorance and expect to be saved by a rules official, should he?"


You know, Tim, that is a very interesting question and it's the result of various Rules situations that are part of the Rules Officiating process (actually within the Rules of Golf itself).

Any player has a right to ask for a ruling in any situation. And if he doesn't like the ruling he gets he can actually ask for another Rules Official's opinion and ruling. And he has the right to work that process to perhaps see if he can get a Rules Official to give him the ruling he wants. If he gets it he is free to play under it without penalty even if that last Rules Official's ruling was wrong. He can do this until a Rules Official tells him it is his final ruling and that if he continues to fart around too long trying to argue or work the process he will be liable to a Rule 6-7 penalty.

Seve was real good at doing that and so is that nice guy Ernie Els.

[TEPaul]

Repeat