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Noel Freeman

The R and A is a disappointment re: Deal
« on: August 15, 2010, 10:09:42 AM »
I haven't picked up Sir Guy Campbell's Golf at Deal and Princes in a few years.  As I'm fortunate to be spending my 39th birthday at these 2 courses in the very near future, I had a glance at the book in baited anticipation.  In it, Sir Guy quotes Bernard Darwin

"Deal is a truly great course, I incline myself to think the most testing and severe of all Championship courses...that long fierce struggle home in the teeth of the wind which can almost break, but also elate the heart."

Yet at the recent Open Press Conference, I believe Geoff Shackelford who visited Deal the week of the Open asked Peter Dawson and other members of the R&A staff why Deal would not be considered to rejoin the rota ala Hoylake.  I believe their response dealt with potentially the course not being able to fit in 50,000 spectators or something like that.. Did they see the recent Open, it looked relatively empty especially for an Open.  Now I realize that London's proximity would bring a lot of spectators, but if you've been do Deal there is a lot of room on both sides of the course (Seawall and the private road to Sandwich which the club owns) to fit plenty of people.  There are limited spots in the interior of the course but I do think the club could host close to that number.

There are only a few back tees needed to build and the course would be ready.  And SE England is the driest part of the UK which hopefully would lend to firm and fast conditions.  Two venues in the South would also be a boon for the R&A..

Draft Deal..

« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 08:36:23 AM by NFreeman »

Scott Warren

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2010, 01:06:35 PM »
The space argument is a cop-out. If the R&A genuinely wants to bring the Open to Deal, there is ample space - both flanking the course closer to the clubhouse and in the middle of the course down by 7-13. The club also owns all the land between #11 and the old Guildford Hotel to the north where the tented village could be placed.

If space for stands around the 18th is an issue, the course can easily be played starting at the 2nd and ending with the 1st (which with a bit more length and a front left pin would be a brilliant deciding hole) or starting at #12 and finishing on the 11th.

I saw your name down on the starting sheet, Noel. I hope you enjoy your trip and happy birthday!

Jamie Barber

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2010, 02:10:53 PM »
I think it's just that they make an exception for St Andrew's. Also with RSG such a fine host course, I don't see that they are looking for anything else.

PS if you ever fancy a game at Prince's, drop me a note.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2010, 02:35:11 PM »

Jamie

Sorry, but we are talking about the R&A, don't expect too much, you may well be dissapointed ;)

Melvyn

Ben Stephens

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2010, 02:40:35 PM »
Its a shame that the R&A have not said that they are seriously looking at taking the Open Rota to more courses and other areas in the UK. As I have heard recently from Boony about Deal that it is a great golf course and worthy of a Open there. Instead of taking the Open to St Andrews every 5 years make it every 8 years instead like they did in the past and allow other courses more chance of hosting an Open. Other than Deal the top three alternatives would be Portrush, Porthcawl and Saunton. Fellow GCA'ers will see Porthcawl for themselves in a few weeks time and I believe it is definitely a stronger golf course than Hoylake, Lytham and Troon.

St Andrews may be the grand dame of the Open courses - it has pros and cons and its not ideal for spectactors. I believe the R+A would make more money if they went to Wales and Devon as the weather is better 'down south' which will attract more spectators and Portrush would be great for NI especially Rory McIlroy and G Mac - imagine the massive support they would have

Jamie - how is the course renovation coming along at Princes?

Cheers
Ben

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2010, 04:28:49 PM »


I do not think The Open will go to Portrush or Wales for that matter, but we know that money is high up on the R&A list of important issues, one day they may feel the same about the traditions of a Game called Golf. well we but can hope and dream.

Melvyn

Mark Chaplin

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2010, 04:53:47 PM »
Deal would be better suited to the British Seniors or British Womens Open.

But best of all the Walker Cup, 5000 spectators, no ropes or grandstands.
Cave Nil Vino

Adam Lawrence

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2010, 05:06:58 PM »
I still think if another course is added to the rota, it'll be Porthcawl. Lots of impetus behind a Welsh Open venue. And if they aren't pursuing the Championship, why did they build two new greens, adding another 200 yards to the golf course?
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tony_Muldoon

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2010, 05:33:53 PM »
I haven't picked up Sir Guy Campbell's Golf at Deal and Princes in a few years.  As I'm fortunate to be spending my 39th birthday at these 2 courses in the very near future, I had a glance at the book in baited anticipation.  In it, Sir Guy quotes Bernard Darwin

"Deal is a truly great course, I incline myself to think the most testing and severe of all Championship courses...that long fierce struggle home in the teeth of the wind which can almost break, but also elate the heart."

Draft Deal..




Interesting thoughts one and all.

Noel I’ve been looking for that book for quite some time (never seen it for less than £130).  Does it give a clue as to which holes he was responsible for at Princes after the War?

The 27 were split almost equally between him and Morrison; does Campbell’s book give any clues as to which holes he worked on?  That must be a unique ‘collaboration’ style with 2 architects simultaneously working on different holes on the same course.  Morrison is quoted in his letters repeatedly saying it would be the best course in the world (phrasing from memory).  IN short how valuable is the book?

Thanks
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

john_stiles

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2010, 05:39:31 PM »
With Hoylake and Carnoustie back in, no one really dropping out, TOC (home course) every five years, is there any hope for Portrush or Deal ?

If mounting Open demands frustrate club members,  maybe another has a chance.

But who amongst those now in rota, who will give up or be pushed out.

Muirfield
TOC every 5 years
Lytham
Carnoustie
Troon
Turnberry
Sandwich
Birkdale
Hoylake

It is a great honor and obviously good for local economy


« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 05:49:24 PM by john_stiles »

Sean_A

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2010, 06:13:11 PM »
Deal would be better suited to the British Seniors or British Womens Open.

But best of all the Walker Cup, 5000 spectators, no ropes or grandstands.

I am with Chappers.  I don't think Deal can handle the Open in the same way other Open venues can with the exception of TOC.  There isn't that much space around for spectators.  Besides, IMO, if the R&A were gonna go for another venue Portrush should be looked at first then Porthcawl.  For me, Deal would be third in line for serious consideration.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Noel Freeman

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2010, 08:13:56 PM »
All this reminds me of those pithy little vignettes before Pink Floyd songs that really expose the old English mentality that I must admit, I like..  The one before Wish you were here which was a little BBC on the radio play highlights it best to me.. I remember Paul Turner another guy (if you read the whats wrong with GCA threads as most will not remember him nor I from the old days) listening to these plays while traveling around the UK and Europe.. I digress.

But it reminds me of a bunch of salmon coloured trousers R&A members (without Mr. Huntley!) and public school chaps gathering around with a tasty claret discussing Deal:

Nigel- Surely Piers Deal could not hold an Open, too tight a routing old bean, no?

Piers: Here Here chap..

Alistair:  Back 9 is too difficult for major championship play in a gale, I agree.  Pass the nuts please Nigel..

Nigel- So it is decided, no Open, we can't fit the hoi polloi

Graham- Tosh, Deal's a cracking place for an Open.  Lets do it.

Nigel- But it will only fit 30-40,000 people

Piers-  Plus it would pinch all of Sandwich's glory.  

Alistair-  They only have one room in the clubhouse where you must wear a coat, how can we hold an open at such an informal place!

Graham- Sod off gents.. And Bob's your uncle, wait you guys are all Eton grads, Bob is your uncle and your father.

My point in writing this was Darwin said, Deal is the most testing of the championship venues and who would have known better than him. Chappers is local and knows so much more than I about the politics etc, but even though I'd love a Walker Cup or other 2nd tier event, I dream of seeing the big boys tee it up.. I want to see them play the 6th and 10th in championship play, I want to see 16 as a par 4.5 into the wind.. I want to see the greens confound them.  I want to see cracking golf on this mighty links which is as classic as the very definition of the word.  My point is, I think the English mentality is not letting the Open Return and Deal is due, the North Sea spoiled so many Opens it deservedly earned.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 08:23:48 PM by NFreeman »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2010, 08:32:50 PM »


You leave our North Sea out of this, its what puts hair on your chest and makes a golfer out of a man and of course upsets the pofessionals as they have to work a little bit harder for their money;)

Melvyn

Bill_McBride

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2010, 11:38:11 PM »
I still think if another course is added to the rota, it'll be Porthcawl. Lots of impetus behind a Welsh Open venue. And if they aren't pursuing the Championship, why did they build two new greens, adding another 200 yards to the golf course?

Adam, sorry to thread jack NAF, but could you tell me about the two new greens at Poirthcawl?  I played there in 2004 and will be back next month for the Buda.  What can you tell me about the new work?

Thanks.

Bill_McBride

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2010, 11:41:54 PM »
Deal would be better suited to the British Seniors or British Womens Open.

But best of all the Walker Cup, 5000 spectators, no ropes or grandstands.

I am with Chappers.  I don't think Deal can handle the Open in the same way other Open venues can with the exception of TOC.  There isn't that much space around for spectators.  Besides, IMO, if the R&A were gonna go for another venue Portrush should be looked at first then Porthcawl.  For me, Deal would be third in line for serious consideration.

Ciao

Why is County Down getting no mention?   Unless the Valley course is destroyed for parking and the village, there's about as much room at Newcastle as Portrush.

Mark Chaplin

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2010, 02:53:01 AM »
Ulster is 50 years away from an Open at the current rate of the "peace" process. Children were injured in a bombing this weekend.

I know two current venues who'd happily dropout of the rota, arm twisting is required. Deal's advantage is corporate London business.

Deal gets plenty of exposure to the R&A especially through the Hewitt. Noel if Deal were to come back into contention we will first need to successfully host some of those events I mentioned earlier.
Cave Nil Vino

Adam Lawrence

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2010, 04:04:20 AM »
I still think if another course is added to the rota, it'll be Porthcawl. Lots of impetus behind a Welsh Open venue. And if they aren't pursuing the Championship, why did they build two new greens, adding another 200 yards to the golf course?

Adam, sorry to thread jack NAF, but could you tell me about the two new greens at Poirthcawl?  I played there in 2004 and will be back next month for the Buda.  What can you tell me about the new work?

Thanks.

Bill, I got that slightly wrong: they built a new green at the twelfth, on the practice field behind the old one, lengthening the hole to 575 yards or so, and a new back tee at the fifth, which made the hole 610 yards from the back. There was a plan to build a new green on the seventeenth also, but that hasn't happened. Welsh architect David Williams did the work. We covered it back in 2007 - see http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Williams-extends-Royal-Porthcawl/1148/Default.aspx, but I haven't been down there to see the work yet... I should try to do so.

Adam
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Brian_Ewen

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2010, 04:10:34 AM »
Does Deal really own the private road to Sandwich ?


Jamie Barber

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2010, 04:21:13 AM »
Its a shame that the R&A have not said that they are seriously looking at taking the Open Rota to more courses and other areas in the UK. As I have

Jamie - how is the course renovation coming along at Princes?

Cheers
Ben

It's not really a full on renovation, more of a face lift and maintenance practice changes.

Stage 1 is mainly bunkering and a few minor tweaks. They did a lot this winter but got stymied by the weather, but will start again soon. I think there'll end up being roughly the same number of bunkers, but repositioned to bring them more into play.

In terms of maintenance the course is getting better, but it will take time. They've change the mowing lines and watering and it didn't get nearly as brown as it has in the past (although still very F&F). The fairways still need some work. They've also done work on the green surrounds (extensive tining) but again the long dry spell we had means they haven't recovered fully.

Other than the course, the big work is on the new Lodge and Dormie house (rebuild of the old clubhouse). When finished it will sleep 80. Apparently it's a "multi-million pound" project.

*Brian* - I think Deal owns some of the road, but not all (certainly not the bit through Sandwich Bay Estate).
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 04:23:55 AM by Jamie Barber »

Ben Stephens

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2010, 04:40:33 AM »
Adam,

Bill and I will find out a bit more about the proposed new 17th green at Porthcawl when we go there next month. I look forward playing the new 12th hole - the old one was more like a par 4.5 rather than a par 5.

Cheers
Ben

I still think if another course is added to the rota, it'll be Porthcawl. Lots of impetus behind a Welsh Open venue. And if they aren't pursuing the Championship, why did they build two new greens, adding another 200 yards to the golf course?

Adam, sorry to thread jack NAF, but could you tell me about the two new greens at Poirthcawl?  I played there in 2004 and will be back next month for the Buda.  What can you tell me about the new work?

Thanks.

Bill, I got that slightly wrong: they built a new green at the twelfth, on the practice field behind the old one, lengthening the hole to 575 yards or so, and a new back tee at the fifth, which made the hole 610 yards from the back. There was a plan to build a new green on the seventeenth also, but that hasn't happened. Welsh architect David Williams did the work. We covered it back in 2007 - see http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Williams-extends-Royal-Porthcawl/1148/Default.aspx, but I haven't been down there to see the work yet... I should try to do so.

Adam

Ben Stephens

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2010, 04:53:52 AM »
Scott,

Deal has plenty of room to accomodate stands. It will mostly be on the left side of the 18th fairway and the rear of the green leaving an open view from the clubhouse. Whistling Straits had the stands on the right side. This would be a very interesting finish having the stands on one side and leaving it open on the other which is unusual for an Open.

There is loads of Open space around the clubhouse for a tented village - the land could be rented for a short period. The space here is much more flexible than Hoylake. I believe it is very possible for this to work. There is more space in between holes than Lytham. I don't understand why the R+A are coming out saying it won't fit 50000 spectators where at St. Andrews is the worse course for a major championship in terms of spectator movement and viewing from ground level. Deal is a much better proposition than TOC.

The USGA is being brave to take the 2013 US Open to Merion despite lack of space and infrastructure regarding the commercial faciliites as well as spectator movement. I think the Open championship needs to spread its wings a bit more - why is it called the 'British' Open when it refuses to go to Wales and Northern Ireland.

Cheers
Ben


The space argument is a cop-out. If the R&A genuinely wants to bring the Open to Deal, there is ample space - both flanking the course closer to the clubhouse and in the middle of the course down by 7-13. The club also owns all the land between #11 and the old Guildford Hotel to the north where the tented village could be placed.

If space for stands around the 18th is an issue, the course can easily be played starting at the 2nd and ending with the 1st (which with a bit more length and a front left pin would be a brilliant deciding hole) or starting at #12 and finishing on the 11th.

I saw your name down on the starting sheet, Noel. I hope you enjoy your trip and happy birthday!

Ben Stephens

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2010, 04:59:46 AM »
Mark

Ulster is getting unfair press exposure due to its recent past history these kind of events are becoming rarer - I have friends from this area and I felt safe. Bad things are happening in every part of the UK - Cumbria shooting incident + London has a lot of gang related problems. Why deny the area an chance to see one of their own winning an Open on home turf on a magnificent golf course whether its Portrush or RCD.

Cheers
Ben

Ulster is 50 years away from an Open at the current rate of the "peace" process. Children were injured in a bombing this weekend.

I know two current venues who'd happily dropout of the rota, arm twisting is required. Deal's advantage is corporate London business.

Deal gets plenty of exposure to the R&A especially through the Hewitt. Noel if Deal were to come back into contention we will first need to successfully host some of those events I mentioned earlier.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 02:53:42 PM by Ben Stephens »

Ben Stephens

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2010, 05:04:17 AM »
Bill,

RCD is an awesome course - lots of blind shots + Newcastle is quite far from an airport is probably not helping its chances. If it was me I would hold an Open here and get around the major issues. The back nine may need to be redesigned so that it is to the standard of the front nine.

Tented village - no probs plenty of space. The Open needs something new and fresh that gets everyone talking about it. Expanding the rota is one way forward promoting areas in the UK where the Open has not been to before.

Cheers
Ben

Deal would be better suited to the British Seniors or British Womens Open.

But best of all the Walker Cup, 5000 spectators, no ropes or grandstands.

I am with Chappers.  I don't think Deal can handle the Open in the same way other Open venues can with the exception of TOC.  There isn't that much space around for spectators.  Besides, IMO, if the R&A were gonna go for another venue Portrush should be looked at first then Porthcawl.  For me, Deal would be third in line for serious consideration.

Ciao

Why is County Down getting no mention?   Unless the Valley course is destroyed for parking and the village, there's about as much room at Newcastle as Portrush.

Noel Freeman

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2010, 07:36:49 AM »
Here is the exact dialogue from the R&A press conference:

Q.  Can you talk about the process by which a course that has once
> hosted the Open Championship but has not been in the rotation for some
> time, how that course could get reconsidered for hosting an Open?  And
> specifically the course I'm thinking of is Royal St. Ports.
> PETER DAWSON:  David, do you want to take that?
>
> DAVID HILL:  Well, it's part of my role to look at all the other
> alternatives.  The general restrictions are not the quality of the
> golf course necessarily, and there's probably six, seven, eight, nine
> maybe courses in the United Kingdom that could host the Open
> Championship as far as the quality of the golf course is concerned.   
> But it's the infrastructure you need to accommodate 50,000 people a
> day, which is what we get at most of our venues.  And currently
> certainly the course you've just referred to would fall short of that.

I understand that the R&A would want to see a smaller event and we shall see after it holds the 2013 Amateur with Princes which would at best put Deal on schedule for a potential Open after 2018..  Still, I think the R&A is ignoring the BEST course in the South to hold an Open.  I think this is all bollocks, the R&A has too much invested with Sandwich and the old boys there.  It would not take much for Deal to hold the Open.  With the new tees on #3 and #5 plus a back tee on #1 which could become #18, the course easily could measure north of 7200 yards and as stated above there is tremendous room for a tented villiage at the far north end of the course..

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The R and A is disappointment re: Deal
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2010, 07:45:16 AM »

Lets not forget we are talking about the R&A - there are time when even they do not understand what some of their guys are doing - but hey that par for the course as far as the R&A. However change the subject to money and you see a united front, pity it's not the same with the thing that generates the money GOLF.  Like the film Dune "Let the Sleeper Awake" seem to match the mood of all outsuide the R&A.

Melvyn

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