The 'problem' with the Discussion Group

[Donnie Beck]

IMO the 'problem' at the moment with the Discussion Group is that too many people who aren't particularly strong in architecture are making too many posts. Their drivel hides what continues to be an outstanding amount of knowledge. In turn, others grow weary and spend their time elsewhere.

I couldn't agree more. It seems in earlier days newer members would hang around for a while posting occasionally before jumping right in. Nowadays it seems like this has become a posting contest to see who can amass the most posts in the shortest amount of time.

I also disagree with creating a separate OT area. We got by for years without the need. If you can't respect Ran's wishes to keep them to a minimal then maybe you shouldn't be here!

[DMoriarty]

"GolfClubAtlas.com is presented to promote frank commentary on golf course architecture."

Everyone has interests other than golf course architecture.  But OT threads attract too many posters who are more interested in other matters than in golf course architecture.  "Frank discussions on golf course architecture" get pushed to the back pages.   Keeping off OT threads is an indirect way of policing the make-up of the membership and making sure our purposes in being here are in-line with the Ran's reasons for having us here.  If you are more interested in the OT stuff, then this probably isn't the website for you.  

Bob, I agree that sometimes there are real gems which are off-topic, and no doubt that will always be the case.  But something is wrong when a large portion of the threads dominating the conversations are focused on things like "Tiger's problem" and the "best food experience" while interesting efforts to discuss golf courses drop immediately to the back pages.  If we all stuck to golf course architecture as much as Patrick then I doubt a thread like the one you mentioned would raise much of an eyebrow from Ran or anyone else.
 

[Phil McDade]

" 'Frank discussions on golf course architecture' get pushed to the back pages."-- DMoriarty

Well, there can't be frank dicussions of architecture if most of the people complaining about OT threads aren't willing to contribute anything to the obviously GCA-related threads that occupy the majority of the front page -- today, and most days.

Is a 9-hole course in Youngstown, OH, too beneath your GCA tastes to comment on? Or a really interesting-looking 18-hole course in Oil City, PA? (both courtesy of the tireless Rich Hetzel, whose chronicles of golf courses I always look forward to viewing).

Nothing to add about speed slots? Others have found a way. No thoughts on template holes (two front-page threads, currently)? What about the bunkering at Augusta National? Any thoughts, at all, about Whistling Straits?

Ever a word of thanks to those, like Sean Arble, who spend countless hours documeting courses through pictures for, presumably, those of us here to enjoy, and comment on?

Or are all of these threads taking time away from posting on the Merion threads, which -- as Philip Young astutely notes -- many of us might like to participate it, but don't, largely to avoid the vitriol expressed by you and others on those threads.

I'll end by repeating what I said on a related thread -- those who can't find archirtecture-related threads on the Discussion Board aren't trying very hard.

P.S. Thanks for the photos of the 14th at Rock Creek Cattle -- they've helped further my understanding and education about the course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Huntley,

I've never started an OT thread.

As to participating in one, I've done that occassionally, but it's rare and usually confined to golf related events.

OT's are harming the site.

Ran confirmed that.

Let's abide by his wish/directive and do away with them

Glad to see you're back participating, even though that's an OT subject

[Tim Gavrich]

I am conflicted on this.  On the one hand, I do get annoyed when I see three or so OT threads on different sides of the Tiger Woods melodrama on the front page of the DG.  But on the other hand, I can see why OT threads get started and sometimes become very popular.  Even though we all gather here bound by the common bond of an abiding love for golf courses and golf course architecture, the mutual respect for opinions on said subject between so many DG participants naturally extends to discussions of other matters--both golf-related and otherwise.

I love this site because of its unique topic, but primarily I enjoy the cast of characters that hang out and give their thoughts here on a daily basis.  There are many people whose posts I always look out for because of their keen interpretations and insights into golf course architecture.  As a result, I am also very interested to see what they think about the state of professional golf, their favorite golf-related meals, or even the books they've been reading lately.  The intelligence and intellect of many posters regarding GCA makes me want to know what they think of other things.

I find that OT threads function as a sort of glue on the site, culture-wise.  If all we did here was talk about golf course architecture, we wouldn't really learn a lot about each other otherwise unless we contacted each other and hung out off-GCA.  Which a lot of people do, but not everyone can do it so easily.  So, good OT threads (rare though they are) provide a chance to lend a little more color to many characters on here.  Granted, too many OT threads pollute the site, but I think we might be doing ourselves a little bit of a disservice by suggesting the complete outlawing of OT threads.

Just my opinion.  I will try to curb my participation in OT threads--especially the firepits--from now on.  I played Copake (NY) CC today and LOVED it.  I will try to be very on-T and post a picture tour tomorrow.  It was an AWESOME course!

Cheers.

--Tim

[DMoriarty]

Phil McDade,

Sometimes it is not a matter of "willing to contribute" but more a matter of refraining from posting when we have nothing of substance to contribute.  I think that was part of Ran's point.   No course is "beneath my gca tastes" to comment on, but why would I comment on courses I've never seen or played and know nothing about?  Why would I post if I have nothing to add to the conversation?  I don't build courses so I don't know how to build speed slots, but what Tom Doak wrote made a lot of sense to me. Etc.

Ideally threads like Rich Hertzel's would stick around near the surface for a few days or more instead of instantly drowning under wave after wave of OT drivel.  That way even those with nothing to add could have a better opportunity to enjoy them.  A thread shouldn't need a constant stream of posts just to stay above water.   As it is, it would be a full time job to dig out the gems among the junk, much less comment on them.

As for the Merion threads, this isn't one, but I agree with you and with Phillip.  Those threads are a travesty and an embarrassment, not only to me personally but also because they discourage those who might have something interesting and relevant to say from saying it.   I'd like nothing more than to discuss Merion civilly and productively with you or anyone else interested without anyone being beaten down by the constant vitriol and personal attacks.  Unfortunately, given the state of things, that seems unlikely.

[John Mayhugh]

I've never started an OT thread.

Almost never - none of us are perfect.  But your batting average is VERY high! 

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35074.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23579.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,7743.0/

[Tony Weiler]

Ran, please give me fair warning before kicking me out.  I don't add much as my knowledge of GCA is so limited, but I'm learning much.  I'm trying to abide by the adage of:  "if you have nothing to say keep your mouth shut and have those around you think you are stupid rather than open open your mouth and prove them right."  I love this site, and hope to add more once I feel that I can. 

[DMoriarty]

John,

He'll argue that those three are all related to gca at least tangentially, and he might even have a point.   If so, you could always go for the jugular and pull up a few of his annual reminders that NORAD tracks Santa on the internet.

Go easy on him, though, because as much as I dislike OT threads, not even I hate Christmas. 

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=37825;topic=1947.0;num_replies=8;sesc=3b4178225e85ef068dd250e7e7b87683

The North American Radar Airspace Defense system (NORAD)
has picked up Santa on their radar screens.

To view the NORAD radar tracking of Santa, go to NORADSANTA.ORG.

When you get to the sighting of Santa, click on the red dot and view the most recent radar clip of his travels.

The radar track is updated hourly

[Matthew Rose]

  One reason why there are not more architects on the site is because people are over critical.When you're out designing courses and putting your heart into it who wants to hear your work is crap.Trust me, it is not the OT stuff that is keeping these guys away.Look how Pete Dye is getting smacked this week.

  Anthony

Somebody has that wonderful Tom Watson quote in their signature.... golf courses should be enjoyed, not rated.

I guess you could consider this one of the more disappointing aspects of this place for me. It seems like everything is about rank and ratings and prestige and why X is better than Y and why Z is a "terrible architect".

I'm interested in every style of golf course and I believe every individual who pursues this for a living has something to offer. I like some of RTJ's work, some of Fazio's work, some of Nicklaus', some of Palmer's.... even Art Hills, although I have to admit I do dislike a couple holes at his nearest course to me.

It is disappointing to me to see those who, forgive the cliche, seem willing to throw their colleagues and peers under the bus.

I guess I'd just like to see less emphasis on ratings and scales and maybe more about styles, philosophy, or even more educational aspects for idiots like me who don't do this for a living but are always trying to learn more about it. That's why I'm here. Before I joined, I couldn't have told you in the slightest what a biarritz was, despite having drawn golf holes on napkins and posters and my PC screen for 20 years.

[Pat Burke]

I'm an ODG fan.  Played a lot ODG courses.  Kind of like art, I know what I like.  Spend much of my days
seeing golf holes alongside highways, or redesigning the course I am playing
I definitely post in some off topic forums, and will sometimes take things personally when players are disparaged as a group,
but I have learned a lot in here, and will refrain as best I can, unless I have a question or thought that is more relevant to GCA.
Thanks for the post Ran, there are some things that negatively boggle my mind on your site, but many more things I enjoy

[JC Urbina]

Ran,

I have enjoyed meeting a lot of the people on this discussion group in person.  The truth is when you talk face to face the discussions seem to be more entertaining and truthful. 

[Rob Rigg]

Maybe do away with the "posts" tally as well as the OT stuff?

Everyone on the board knows the guys who bring really interesting info and analysis to the site, whether they have 10k posts or 500 or 150.

Just a thought - then there is no pressure to post a bunch of crap to get into "Senior Member" status?

That might lead to more reading and thoughtful responses versus rushed posting?

[Dan Herrmann]

This is great - clean up the ill effects of entropy.   

[Tony_Muldoon]

FINALLY, I've found a benefit to my recent weight gain:  I can no longer contemplate my navel.

You guys feel free to go right ahead, however. 

Mike

This goes round and round and it’s so boring I can’t be bothered to look in here much these days.

Ran, you’re a great guy but I find it hard to believe you actually read the DG much these days.  Doesn’t the general stench of nastiness that’s just below the surface, waiting to re-erupt at a moment’s notice, concern you? It permeates the whole DG and it’s no longer a place I look forward to visiting with the same JOY I once felt.  I have pointed more than a few good men in the direction of this group and when I meet them again it’s always “Did you see that ++++++ thread?”.  It’s not the positive stuff they are referring to.

Kick out those who can’t be civil and encourage the humour back on here.  Exhibit one above.


PS  1 .  Ran please ask your enablers  to do a comparison on the percentage of O/T threads on here 4 years ago (about when I started) and today.  I’ll double my contribution this year if there’s more than 10% difference. Often it’s the O/T threads that provide the bonding on here.  You refuse to countenance the obvious solution to what you say is the problem and that’s your choice.

PS 2.  In all these recent threads no one has mentioned “It’s the economy stupid”.  Am I the only one, working harder and spending less time on the computer?  I have lots of research ideas and no time to follow them up and I know I’m not alone. So put the house in order now and good times will return.


See you guys on the golf course.
 

[Adrian_Stiff]

I only read say 10% of the posts and there are a few posters I just dont read their comments to threads I am interested in. By and large I think its a great forum and I know I have learned a lot, whilst I have little use for Zoysia or Bermuda its nice to gain some knowledge. The mix of archies, superintendents, managers, raters is great, there are some very interesting outside of the trade posters, I dont always agree with Sean Arble but I read pretty much read everything he posts and the photo tours that he and other post are magnificent. I dont like the constant turning of threads into anti golf cart warfare but in any discussion group you are going to get sandcastle kickers. You are always going to get topics going off topic, and topics where architecture is only partially related. I think my number of posts is 1607, it will be interesting to see my drop.

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Hey all,

An excellent post by Ran.  I haven't posted anything on here in years (though I still lurk) in part because there is so much fat on this DG that the meat is hard to find.  The trouble is, there is nothing really wrong with the fat, per se.  Many of us are old friends here, with a feeling of this being a 19th hole, and it's often just simply "fiun" to talk about topics that are slightly OT or not so "serious"

Just throwing this idea out, but how about two discussion groups, as was mentioned above.  The first would be the "meat" discussion group, as Ran and all of us would ike to find.  A concentration of insightful, well-written, on-topic discussions about golf course architecture.  The second would be the "fat", with the OT posts, the "I'm playing ___ next weekend, who wants to join me?" and all other water-cooloer chit-chat.

From a site-management perspective, posts in the first DG would be permanent, with a well-stocked archive.  All posts in the second would all be deleted after a month.

Just a thought.

[Anthony Gray]

I've never started an OT thread.

Almost never - none of us are perfect.  But your batting average is VERY high! 

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35074.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23579.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,7743.0/

  Pat,

  I can't believe they are picking on you.I've never started an OT thread either.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

Maybe do away with the "posts" tally as well as the OT stuff?

Everyone on the board knows the guys who bring really interesting info and analysis to the site, whether they have 10k posts or 500 or 150.

Just a thought - then there is no pressure to post a bunch of crap to get into "Senior Member" status?

That might lead to more reading and thoughtful responses versus rushed posting?

  Good idea.The post tally can make it look like it is a competition rather than participation.

  Anthony

[Mike Hendren]

No course is "beneath my gca tastes" to comment on, but why would I comment on courses I've never seen or played and know nothing about?

David, first off let me say I'm not trying to be a wise guy or put you on the spot.  I am curious, however, how many times you've played Merion and how many hours you've spent on site.  The same question goes for the other antagonists.

Kindest regards,

Mike

[BVince]

Ran and the Discussion group,

I am glad to see that we are openly addressing some of the opportunities that have reduced the quality of the discussion group.  I must admit that I still hang around the site and check it every few days, but the outlandish personal attacks that some of the members in this group participate in is utterly classless and embarrassing.  The result is several of the GCA discussion group members have elected not to participate.  Waiting on the sidelines does not mean that we love GCA any less, but we choose not to get involved with the meaningless conversations that clog this website and waste the time of those who come here for real golf course architecture analysis.

One of the problems is that some of the people that post on here have a false sense of entitlement since they have 10000 or more posts.  Since they spend so much time following this site, then they feel like they are an expert on Golf Course Architecture and they can dominate the discussion through aggressive attacks on other's opinions.  Don't get me wrong, some of these members are of great value to the site, but some bring a childish destruction when they disagree.

Another problem of the site, is that when there are legitimate post asking questions about a particular feature, course, or other related topics, these threads slide off of the first page so quickly and get lost in a sea of OT threads.  If you look at it statistically, I guess that means that there is not as much demand of pointed conversation about GCA versus the high-demand for off topic rants.  I think breaking up the discussion board to include a golf course architecture and an off-topic folder is a great idea.  Those who want the personal gratification of discussing Tiger Woods' off course issues and other topics still have a forum to do it while the people that want to stick to architecture do not have to navigate through the onslaught of personal attacks to find a sliver of real architectural opinion.

I do enjoy the site and I always will.  It is frustrating for some of us who would like to see it get back to the main idea of the discussion group.  Golf course architecture is an art and with a piece of playable design there will be differing opinions and interpretations.  I am excited to see the change and if all goes well, I may venture back onto the playing field instead of observing from the sidelines.  

[John Mayhugh]

Go easy on him, though, because as much as I dislike OT threads, not even I hate Christmas. 

Only having some fun.  I'm just bitter because he scheduled Mucci-stock (Mountain Ridge outing) the week after Buda and I'm not able to go!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Adrian

I do not want to derail this thread but feel that your comment” I dont like the constant turning of threads into anti golf cart warfare but in any discussion group you are going to get sandcastle kickers.” Is that actually fair as a discussions can travel along different paths depending upon those who decide to participate. But yes I do take your point but its seems that attacks on the individual seem more prevalent than posts on ant carting.

I would put it to you that cart and cart tracks are very relevant when discussing GCA. They constitute an expensive part of the process as well as challenge the designer to camouflage the tracks. When we talk of courses with 200 carts, I feel we are no longer in the realms of golf but have entered either F1 or the Indi 500 or in this case the 200.

I will not pursue the point any further as it’s the wrong thread but I suggest that discussing carts if far closer to GCA than wasting hours on ratings and rankings of courses which let’s be honest is as varied as our choice in women

Melvyn

[Bob_Huntley]

Melvyn,

Yesterday, I played golf for the first time since I had some unpleasantness occur in early May. I played the Senior Ladies tees at 5400 yards, although I did go to the back markers on the Dunes 14th hole, the one along the ocean. The pin was at about 175 yards and I busted a driver some thirty yards short and bogeyed the hole. I was ecstatic.

I could not have experienced such happiness had I not used a cart.


Bob

[PThomas]

Melvyn,

Yesterday, I played golf for the first time since I had some unpleasantness occur in early May. I played the Senior Ladies tees at 5400 yards, although I did go to the back markers on the Dunes 14th hole, the one along the ocean. The pin was at about 175 yards and I busted a driver some thirty yards short and bogeyed the hole. I was ecstatic.

I could not have experienced such happiness had I not used a cart.


Bob

who could reasonably argue that the above does not close the case about using carts??

I'm happy for you Sir Bob!!